From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 18:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 344, 7/17/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 344, July 17, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Hair and whores CD-ROM costume suggestions Irish lace? Period drawers ISO: Info on pattern making programs Fractal designs drawing program ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Jul 95 10:47:13 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Hair and Whores >> >> That is one of my pet peeves. I have been in the SCA for 15 years and >> as a 16th cent Elizabethan noble woman, my hair is always up in a coif >> or escoffion. I have tried for years to persuade others that a) wearing >> your hair up is the more period way to wear it, and b) at camping events >> it stays much cleaner and neater that way. > >Well, you could try telling the men that any woman with her hair down >in character is advertising herself as sexually available, and see how >long it takes the women to react... > Do you have documentation for this? The only period artwork of sexually available women I have seen consists of one 16th century sketch of a Ventian whore and a portrait of two Italian Renn whores. In both cases, the women had their hair elaborately coiffed. I have always been under the impression that loose hair signified maiden status. This is why brides wore their hair uncovered. (Although I don't know if they did in the 16th century) And, as Denise said, during Elizabeth's coronation she wore her hair loose. This was to signify her virginity. I even have a copy of an illumination from the late 1400's--when hair was usually completely covered and even plucked away from the forehead--showing several maidens dancing (with male partners) wearing a type of turban headress, with their hair pulled through the center of the turban and cascading down their backs. Kathleen ------------------------------ From: mholland@on-ramp.ior.com Date: Fri, 14 Jul 95 14:04 PDT Subject: Re: Costumes on CD-ROM I would suggest that you have a timeline as an option for one index. Also, I would suggest you have a geographical region option as a sub-index option. Next I would suggest you have an over-all style option page. That is, noble, peasant, knight, cleric, religious, craft, military. Then I would expect you might have male, female, children options. When given a final selection of costumes to choose from, a set of buttons could be located under each small sketch that allows you to choose available colors (period correct); data on historical information; time-period range for that outfit; nationality; fabric; etc. Once the final costume is displayed full screen, this is where I see the magic really happening. 3-D rotation would be super. Also a point-an-click sytem whereby you could choose a particular component of that costume and analyze that. This would include undergarments and include enough detail that stiching and fasteners would be included. You might suggest a list of possible "events" at which that costume might have been seen. Don't forget to include a bibliography for those who want more information. You might also have a log for who has costumes like this available or who has personal experience with that costume. A nice touch would be appropriate period music as an option. Use authentic instrumentation, of course. These items could be modular and might be upgradeable as new items are added - not unlike that of the "After Dark" screen saver files so familiar to those in cyber-space. This is only the tip of the iceber, as I am sure you are aware. Good Luck! Sharon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 17:31:06 -0400 (EDT) From: John Sek Subject: Re: Men and Women's button holes Thank you all who responded on this topic. As some of you pointed out there was a thread started back some time ago for which I'll will search the archieves for. Thanks again, obviously the topic line is interesting. *********************************************************************** John Sek,C.E.T.,C.S.T. jsek@freenet.niagara.com 222 Emerick Avenue telephone: 1-905-871-7449 Fort Erie, ON, CANADA L2A 2W5 fax/modem: 1-905-871-0696 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 15:28:25 -0800 From: delarorm@sce.com (RMd) Subject: LACE & STUFF MY FRIEND IS GOING TO SCOTLAND AND IRELAND VACATIONING. HE ASKED ME WHAT I WOULD LIKE, LACE , WOOL. MY FIRST IDEA WAS TARTON WOOL, BUT THEN I THOUGHT I WOULD LIKE SOME LACE. IS THERE SUCH A THING AS IRISH LACE? ( SORRY FOR THE CAPS. NOT YELLING) THANKS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 18:48:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Hair and Whores On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, Kathleen Leggat wrote: > Do you have documentation for this? The only period artwork of > sexually available women I have seen consists of one 16th century sketch of > a Ventian whore and a portrait of two Italian Renn whores. In both cases, > the women had their hair elaborately coiffed. > I don't know if loose hair means a woman was a whore in period, but LIVES OF THE COURTESANS, by Lynne Lawner which is subtitled Portraits of the Renaissance has a number of pictures of women who are alledgily courtesans, a number, but not all, have their hair down are more or less loose. For instance, pg.24 has a black and white sketch entitled "A Venetian Courtesan assisted by Two maidservants" It's by anonymous. The woman has her hair down and loose. There are a lot of pictures of courtesans with their hair up. About the only rule of thumb that I can see from the pictures is that if they are semi-nude or nude, their hair is usually down, although there are some with nudes with the hair up! jaelle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 18:39:09 -0700 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: Costumes on CD-ROM >Earlier this year there was some discussion in the rec.crafts.misc >newsgroup about a history of fashion or costume on CD-ROM. Someone wanted >to know if such a multimedia CD-ROM existed, and several other people >offered their ideas about what features/content would be desireable. >Kevin Laurence Personally, I want to see the entire V&A dress collection (or the Bath collection, among others) on CD-ROM -- full-length front & back view of each item. This would be a wonderful aid to students of historical costume & it would also be a fantastic way to document the collection for posterity. However, I don't think the interactive uses suggested (plugging in measurements & a face to "try on" different clothes) would have much practical use -- just a fun diversion! I wonder what the market for this would be -- just us costumerly types, plus some theatrical designers and historians? A niche market to be sure, which would probably hike up the price. But a series of CD-ROM titles covering major museum clothing collections would be a great reference -- an investment, I would be willing to make. Just my 2 cents! --Trystan fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 09:42:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Costumes on CD-ROM On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, LAURENCE K wrote: > If such a CD-ROM was to be developed, what would you like it to do? > Assuming it had the history of fashion as its basis, what interactive > features would you like to see? The technology exists, for example, to > enter your measurements and a scanned photograph of your face, and then > see what you would look like in any costume/outfit on the disk. Would > this be any use, or merely fun? I like this part a lot, and think it would ake the CD commericially viable. Brides, costume designers, etc. would love to have something like that. I would use it - it would save me a lot of time in deciding what to make next. > Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated. Please email > me directly if you think this subject is off topic for this mailing list. >From a personal point of view I would like to see individual items of clothing whenever possible, grouped by type, so the development of clothing could be seen. jaelle Judy Gerjuoy Jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jul 95 17:09:44 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Costumes on CD-ROM > >If such a CD-ROM was to be developed, what would you like it to do? >Assuming it had the history of fashion as its basis, what interactive >features would you like to see? The technology exists, for example, to >enter your measurements and a scanned photograph of your face, and then >see what you would look like in any costume/outfit on the disk. Would >this be any use, or merely fun? Please, please, please, please, please. Oh, please. And make it so that you can mix and match different elements, i.e. if putting together a tudor gown, can have point or no point to bodice, curved or square neckline, or partlet with standing collar, french hood or gable headdress... Then allow us to add colour, texture and design...i.e. have a tapestry wallpaper that could go into the underskirt, that we can tint different colours. I design costumes all the time, but I can't draw worth beans. I would literally kill...okay, maybe just maim...for a program that would let me design historic costumes that people could recognize on paper... Were someone to design a program like this, I would be more than willing to pay up to $100 for it if the documentation was good, and it cited many primary sources for the research. And I'm a starving student! (But I am also a costume maker in the SCA) Kathleen (who had thought of something like this, but knows nothing about computer programming) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 00:00:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: Period drawers Chantal: My references to period undergarments date back to the medieval period and all information contained in this letter comes from a helpful and interesting book "The History of Underclothes" by C. Willett and Phillis Cunnington and James Laver's "Costume and Fashion". These are two of the more precise books on the subject. The cote-hardie was actually worn over the houpelande and under the houppelande there is evidence that women wore chemises that were very similar to the outer houppelande. While there is no direct evidence that I could find and there probably was little need for corsets in these gowns there is evidence in some statuary of the use of stays however it was more likely that women bound themselves tightly with bandages to smooth their waists. This really isn't a period that I have studied closely or have really designed much from, if you are looking for more in depth information of the period check out the Boucher book "20,000 years of fashion", a book that no designer worth their salt should be without. I hope this helps, Kat afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu On Thu, 13 Jul 1995 cpecourt@mhv.net wrote: > Hello > Speaking of period drawers..what did earlier period people wear > under their clothes.. I have usualy worn later period clothing, bodices, > shifts and skirts..but have made some earlier clothing ( cotehardies) and > it feels stragne and a bit disconcerting not to have the support of a > bodice..what did they wear?? > > Chantal > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 00:16:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: Costumes on CD-ROM I agree with Trystan, however one would have to be careful to use primary research for the CD Roms, otherwise it would be virtually useless to the working designer. There are pattern making programs out there, quite expensive but they are there. Being of the old school, I think they take all the fun out of costume construction but I have worked with people who swear by them. Kat afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 95 01:43:13 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Costumes on CD-ROM >I agree with Trystan, however one would have to be careful to use primary >research for the CD Roms, otherwise it would be virtually useless to the >working designer. There are pattern making programs out there, quite >expensive but they are there. Being of the old school, I think they take >all the fun out of costume construction but I have worked with people who >swear by them. > >Kat >afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu > Could you provide me some more information about these programs? Do you have names? What are their limitations? Thank you. Kathleen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 95 01:43:16 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: drawers The most interesting thing about underwear I have seen in my research was, I believe, ancient Greek. (might have been Roman...it was a while ago. I could find the source if anyone is interested) The source claimed that women of this period were known to wear a two piece underwear, rather like a two piece bathing suit. Yes! A bra and panties!! Kathleen ------------------------------ From: KenDawe@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 08:19:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Costumes on CD-ROM In a message dated 95-07-14 08:27:52 EDT, K.Laurence@city.ac.uk (LAURENCE K) writes: >Does anyone know if any kind of "fashion" CD-ROM currently exists? What >about software to help consumers design their own clothes? I believe that there are programs to help design patterns, etc. Not familiar with them. >If such a CD-ROM was to be developed, what would you like it to do? >Assuming it had the history of fashion as its basis, what interactive >features would you like to see? The technology exists, for example, to >enter your measurements and a scanned photograph of your face, and then >see what you would look like in any costume/outfit on the disk. Would >this be any use, or merely fun? I think that there is the potential for several differant products here. Some are interested in the history of clothing/fashion/costume, and some have narrower interests in those fields than others. A wargamer, for example, would be almost exclusivly interested in the history of military uniforms and equipment, whereas a re-enactor or "Living Historian" would likely be interested in all aspects of costume in the appropriate time and place. Many of the suggestions that mholland@on-ramp.ior.com (Sharon) made in her post of 95-07-14 17:31:03 EDT were good ones, (time-line, indexing by time, place, professions, sex, age, etc.) although I question whether you would want to use up memory with period music. A CD-ROM today holds about 660 megabytes of data, and we're talking some pretty memory-intensive operations here. Being able to examine fabric appropriate to the time and place (and purse!) is also a good idea, and if you are going to incluide phots of actual surviving examples, then by all means offer 3-D views and details of parts of the garment. Another suggestion might be to include information on how the fabric was made, with animated sequences of spinning, dying, weaving, etc. (My wife spins, dyes, and weaves.) The ability to see yourself in various period costumes, I think, would be of limited utility, but it might be useful in a fashion designers's program. How many people have the capability to input a scanned photo of themselves into their PC? On the other hand, some hair salons are using a similar device now. I notice that the answers seem to be talking about either a research tool or a design tool, and ignoring the possibility of the other. I suggest that the urge to create a new form of "shovel ware" be avoided--if there is a market for each of these programs, then market two seperate CD-ROMs. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 10:24:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jim O'Connor" Subject: Drawing Program Question On Sat, 15 Jul 1995, Kathleen Leggat wrote: [snip] > > I design costumes all the time, but I can't draw worth beans. I > would literally kill...okay, maybe just maim...for a program that would let > me design historic costumes that people could recognize on paper... > > Were someone to design a program like this, I would be more than > willing to pay up to $100 for it if the documentation was good, and it cited > many primary sources for the research. And I'm a starving student! (But I > am also a costume maker in the SCA) > > Kathleen > > (who had thought of something like this, but knows nothing about computer > programming) > Has anyone actually used the program called POSER by a company called Fractal Design. I recall someone mentioning it a few months back, but then nothing. Within the last three issues of a magazine called Publish which is aimed the graphic arts industry there have been full page ads for this program. The first few ads didn't have any price info at all (sort of 'if you have to ask how much, then you can't afford it!') but the in the latest issue there are the words 'Special Introductory Offer ONLY $99'. Some additional info: the program appears to be for Mac & Power Mac only. There is a 800 number for Fractal Design; 800-297-COOL ask for ext 1533, Dept B2a (no, I didn't make any of that up!) Beware, I have found that 800 numbers with lengthy ask for etc... is a long pathway to reach someone who hasn't a clue what you're talking about. Even better this issue (Aug. 1995) includes a review (pg. 40). They give the program five stars (their highest rating, and in my experience they appear to be objective, unlike some mags, i.e. not every review gets five stars.) The program seems aimed at helping to draw various 'posed' figures, i.e. action poses. The review talks about the program being used by 'comic book artists, art directors creating storyboards, multimedia artists and animators. It's only illusion to costuming is when it talks about using a texture map to "dress your characters in formfitting clothes." However the aim of the program is the create figures that are then used with other drawing programs, they refer to Fractal Design's Painter and Adobe's Photoshop. The review covers a lot ground in just one page and there is no way to do it justice in this short (it started out that way) posting. The review says that the $99 price is good till Aug. 31 then it becomes $199. The magazine Publish is located at 501 Second St., San Francisco, CA 94107, phone 415 978-3280, fax 415 975-2613, they also list Compuserve (76127,205) or the WELL (publish). Backorder number is 800 656-7495 (in Tennessee or outside U.S.A. 615 377-3322.) DISCLAIMER: I have *no* connection with any of the companies or magazines mentioned above. Furthermore, the very reason I make this posting is because I have real questions as to how useful this program would be to costumers. Perhaps someone on the list who has had actual experience with this product can be encouraged to speak up. Sometimes the developers of a program don't forsee its use in other fields, but that is rare in my experience. On the hand perhaps this is the tool that some folks on the list have been looking for. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 08:55:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: drawers On Sun, 16 Jul 1995, Kathleen Leggat wrote: > The most interesting thing about underwear I have seen in my > research was, I believe, ancient Greek. (might have been Roman...it was a > while ago. I could find the source if anyone is interested) > > The source claimed that women of this period were known to wear a > two piece underwear, rather like a two piece bathing suit. Yes! A bra and > panties!! The source is a Roman (3rd century Sicilian) mosaic showing a woman exercising with barbells wearing "bikini bottoms" and a strapless band over her breasts. While the latter corresponds to descriptions of the strophium worn under ordinary clothes, and it would be tempting to interpret the whole as "exercising in her underwear", the bottom line is that this mosaic only tells us definite facts about "exercise clothing". Extrapolations from that to "underwear" are made at our own risk. (Didn't we do this conversation a couple of months ago?) Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ End of Volume 344 -----------------------