From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 18:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 347, 7/20/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 347, July 20, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Elizabethan corsets Tudor bodice advice Lacemaking resources Boning sources Computer pattern reviews and notes in the archives h-costume archive updates ISO: Oiled canvas Question: Use of Queen Chains ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 19 Jul 95 09:17:00 BST Subject: Corsets To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu I've worn boned bodices and corsets under late 16th century bodices (not the deep point - too much tummy!) Don't know about 15th century, but it has been suggested to me to make a long (hip length) corset with spiral steel bones for turn of the century garments. Spiral steel is very flexible. I use ordinary crinoline sprung steel, about 1 cm wide and as long as you like. BTW there are plenty of pictures of late Elizabethan older women with children - they tend to wear round waisted bodices, the deep point seems to relate to younger (unmarried?) women. Anyway, contrary to some other opinions expressed here, I think boned bodices are *the* most comfortable garment to wear. I'm big (D or DD fitting) and I love getting out of a bra and the red lines across my shoulders and into a well fitted bodice. I've never popped out, despite Italian dancing, and I think they are more comfortable for the woman with big boobs. Discomfort from a tight bodice tends to arise around the lower ribs (talk to singers about that) and big boobs protect the lower ribs, mine don't mind being squashed. They make you sit up properly, so modern soft furnishings are not the things to sit on (have you ever tried driving in a bodice!), but are comfortable in that limitation. Go for it! Make sure it fits properly (you will need help with this), Jean Hunnisett has a couple of good patterns. Make it *stiff* (line and interline as well as steel) and dont make the back too long. It will stretch! Another point, don't try to make the front too high, curving over the bosom. Get a good flat line at the front and protect your modesty with the smock, and if you feel you need it, a partlett. BTW - Jane Seymour's outfit. I've only seen one good solution to this problem. This type of outfit derived from when a kirtle was full-length and worn under a full-length gown (contrast around neck, lower sleeve and front opening are the kirtle). You can make the back of the gown as deep as you like as long as the back of the kirtle (faked or real) goes across the back of the neck fairly straight and the sleeve heads of the gown are attached to the kirtle top. Make the whole bodice stiff and tight and try to minimise stretching. I once did 1529 as gentry and we had at least a dozen gentry women with stiff shoulders from trying to keep their gown sleeves on, apart from the woman who had a high back to her kirtle! Hope this helps. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 10:14:10 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: pquarter@vt.edu (Peggy Quarterman) Subject: lace making After seeing several postings concerning Irish Lace I remembered seeing some postings on WWW concerning lace. You might try the three listings below to get additional lace information and, if you are interested, instruction. http://www.textiles.org/crafts/view_bb.html Textiles Bulletin Board. Categories: general crochet, embroidery, knitting, lacemaking, quilting, rug hooking, sewing, costuming, spinning and weaving. http://www.textiles.org/crafts/index.html Textiles Page. Bulletin board for crafters. Database of stores and sources. http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/prospectus/commact.html Community and family activities - Cranfield University Prospectus. Community and family activities. Hope this helps. *********************** Peggy Quarterman College of Forestry and Wildlife Resources pquarter@vt.edu (eudora system) brettieq@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu (internet) 703-231-5481 Yesterday is the past, tomorrow is the future, but today is a gift...that's why it is called the present. -- unknown *********************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 10:43:29 PDT From: Rachel Subject: RE: Corsets To: Costume List , cpecourt@mhv.net >Hello > Ok, call me crazy but I really want to try and wear one of those >corsets found under 15th and 16th century garments. My . > 3. What to use for stays and where to get them? I have seen >spiral ones but they look uncomfortable as the are round and the garment >is flat... Okay, here's an idea. Try using the metal strips from hanging file folders. You can trim them with tin snips, and then either coat them in plastic, or at least wrap them in electrical tape to prevent rusting. I've tried this withmuch success. -Rachel ------------------------------ From: Greyervn@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 20:06:02 -0400 To: grm+@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Tudor bodice I have found that very tight upper sleeves help a lot, as does an absolutely rigid shoulders back posture. It seems to me that part of the problem is our bosom-heavy modern figure!!! In most of the period portraits the women look as if they have no breasts at all. This makes for a little different angle on the front of the dress, pulling more straight down than down and backward as they do on us. I too have had a hard time getting the shoulders to stay up on my dresses, but on my bosom-less eight year old there is no problem!! Let us all know if you solve the problem.!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 11:20:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu CC: BADDORF@badorf.fnal.gov Subject: RE: Corsets >Okay, here's an idea. Try using the metal strips from hanging >file folders. You can trim them with tin snips, and then either >coat them in plastic, or at least wrap them in electrical tape >to prevent rusting. I've tried this withmuch success. Ach du lieber! Ouch, and ugh, and all that! Surely it is cheaper to just buy the correct boning, rather than buying and throwing away file folders (and having to man-handle the stays too). Numerous places have stays, but here are a few: JAS Townsend & Son 1-800-338-1665 P.O. Box 415 Pierceton, IN 46562 Amazon Dry Goods (319) 322-6800 2218 East 11th Street (800) 798-7979 - orders ONLY and only from the US Davenport, Iowa 52803 (319) 322-4003 - fax ----------------------------------------------------- >They make you sit up properly, so modern soft furnishings are not the >things to sit on (have you ever tried driving in a bodice!), but are >comfortable in that limitation. I find a properly fitted (to each individual) corset quite comfortable. I'm normally a B (or maybe it ought to be a C by now). But yes indeedy, they make you conform to yester-years' posture standards, or they will hurt!! You need to sit straight up, and a throw pillow behind your back will help in any modern chair or car. Two throw pillows on a sofa! ---------------------------------------------------- Fitting a corset: Take the pattern from one of the mentioned books (I used "The Evolution of Fashion: Pattern & Cut from 1066-1930" [Hill & Bucknell] for the basic pattern, though it is more a stage book than a correct historical book). Make a mockup of the basic corset out of a heavy fabric. Try it on; don't lace it but pull it tight with your hands. Now add any room at the waist, take in seams, etc, so that the lacing edges stay parallel with each other when you pull it tight. (Unless they're not meant to be parallel - if there is a stomacher underneath it may be a V-shaped opening). Lacing edges should usually stay at least an inch or 2 apart -- they don't meet! Otherwise you can't pull it any tighter if you ever want to, or when the fabric stretches with use. The corset will fit better in the final version, if you have made adjustments where needed (say, 2" more at the waist sideseams, or something). If you don't do this, the lacing will close tighter at one place than another and it'll look bad on you. THAT is the kind of corset which isn't very comfortable either. I've had ever so many compliments on my corset (~1779 Rev War) mainly because the lacing edges are parallel -- due to fitting the pattern to my own body. ------------------------------ From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@bangate.pge.com Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 9:34:35 PDT To: Subject: re:Corsets Amidst all the good advice on corseting, I believe no one has mentioned so far that you must wear some garment between yourself and the corset, or it will (a) chafe against your skin and (b) absorb your body oils, etc. Properly this garment is the shift or chemise; in lieu of a proper shift, one may use a modern silk camisole or a cotton nightgown to save one's skin (and the corset you have worked so hard to make). Danine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Opinions not necessarily those of: Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Mirabelle Severn & Thames To: BADDORF@badorf.fnal.gov, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: RE: Corsets Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 11:30:55 PDT From: Deb To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: RE: Corsets >Okay, here's an idea. Try using the metal strips from hanging >file folders. You can trim them with tin snips, and then either >coat them in plastic, or at least wrap them in electrical tape >to prevent rusting. I've tried this withmuch success. > Ach du lieber! Ouch, and ugh, and all that! Surely it is cheaper to just buy the correct boning, >rather than buying and throwing away file folders (and having to man-handle the stays too). I don't know about the original poster, but I certainly don't buy and throw away the file folders. The file folders are used all over my workplace, and each and every one of them eventually tears apart. I rescue the metal strips from my own torn folders, and from any that I spot in the waste baskets. Free, sturdy, and environmentally friendly. :-) But it takes several months to collect a sufficient supply. Naomi ------------------------------ From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Fittingly Sew Demo To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (Historic Costume) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 12:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Heather Aspinall wrote: > I just wanted to say Thanks Diane for the great review of Dress Shop, > Fittingly Sew, etc. This is exactly the sort of personal experience You're welcome! Something I forgot to add was notes on using regular drawing programs to create historic garment patterns. I haven't done this myself, but a friend of mine uses her CorelDraw (Windows PC) program to set up a grid, on-screen, and then uses the program's drawing tools to copy Janet Arnold's (pre-gridded) patterns. She can then enlarge the drawing or further modify it within the program. She's also scanned pictures of some patterns into her drawing program too. She can then enlarge the scanned picture and fiddle with some of the lines, or add drawing elements on top of the existing picture to modify it. So either way you don't necessarily need a sewing-specific software program in order to modify or produce patterns. If you already have a drawing program, you might try playing around with it to see if you can do what you want within that program's constraints. Realizing that a number of you don't have www or ftp access, I decided to make the existing sewing software reviews and demos available through "lunch's" Majordomo server. This means you can now request the Dresshop 2.0 review, Personal Patterns review, Fittingly Sew demo (both Mac and Windows versions) and the PC Patterns (Personal Patterns' first incarnation) demo the same way you'd request back digest issues. To get the reviews (text files) for Dress Shop 2.0 and Personal Patterns, send the commands: get h-costume dresshop2.review get h-costume pers-pats.review to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server will send you back those two files. The demo files are uuencoded, because they are binary files, and split into several smaller, easier-to-deliver packages. This means that you need to request all the parts of a demo and then remove all extraneous text lines and concatenate the files together. Then you can uudecode them. That will give you one compressed file (compressed in .zip or .sea format, depending if it's for the Mac or PC) that you can download and decompress on your home computer (Mac or PC). Then you can run the demo! To get the demo files, send the commands: (for the MacIntosh Fittingly Sew demo and separate demo info files:) get h-costume fsmacdem.uue.pt1 get h-costume fsmacdem.uue.pt2 get h-costume fsmacdem.uue.pt3 get h-costume fsmacdem.uue.pt4 get h-costume fsmacdem.uue.pt5 get h-costume fsmacdem.uue.pt6 get h-costume fsmacinf.uue.pt1 get h-costume fsmacinf.uue.pt2 (for the Windows PC Fittingly Sew demo:) get h-costume fswindem.uue.pt1 get h-costume fswindem.uue.pt2 get h-costume fswindem.uue.pt3 get h-costume fswindem.uue.pt4 get h-costume fswindem.uue.pt5 get h-costume fswindem.uue.pt6 (for the DOS PC Personal Patterns demo:) get h-costume pcpat.uue.pt1 get h-costume pcpat.uue.pt2 get h-costume pcpat.uue.pt3 get h-costume pcpat.uue.pt4 get h-costume pcpat.uue.pt5 get h-costume pcpat.uue.pt6 get h-costume pcpat.uue.pt7 to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server will send you back the files you requested. -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Changes to the h-costume archives. To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (Historic Costume) Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:09:51 -0700 (PDT) We got a bigger disk, on "lunch", which allows me to have a bit more room for the archives. So I've restored all the back issues going back to when h-costume was first started, in 1993. Previously I could only keep one year's archives active; now we can have all of them. To cut the size of the CONTENTS and TOPICS files, I've moved the 1993 back issues and the 1994 back issues into their own directories, complete with their own CONTENTS and TOPICS files. I may even eventually move the FAQ's and demos into their own directories too, but not just yet. So be sure to get a current index before requesting files! Now when you get an index of h-costume, you'll see stuff like: Date Size Filename Jul 19 1995 6825 hcos-93/CONTENTS.93 Jul 19 1995 8464 hcos-93/TOPICS.93 Apr 5 1994 43473 hcos-93/hcos.931117 Apr 5 1994 30337 hcos-93/hcos.931118 Apr 5 1994 43886 hcos-93/hcos.931119 Jul 19 1995 72774 hcos-94/CONTENTS.94 Jul 19 1995 71093 hcos-94/TOPICS.94 Apr 5 1994 48143 hcos-94/hcos.940103 Apr 5 1994 18325 hcos-94/hcos.940105 Apr 5 1994 20384 hcos-94/hcos.940106 Jul 7 1995 59296 hcos.950707 Jul 11 1995 52743 hcos.950711 Jul 12 1995 47413 hcos.950712 Jul 13 1995 46240 hcos.950713 The dates ^^ for the 1993 and 1994 files aren't quite accurate because I've been moving this stuff around and that messes up the date. Since the date isn't important, I'm probably not going to fix it. The important thing is the filename; that's what you use to request files. If you wanted, say, the file called hcos.940103, you'd request it by listing the subdirectory too (as listed above) when writing to Majordomo. So you'd say: get h-costume hcos-94/hcos.940103 and the server would send you back that file. (Anything to keep you guys on your toes! :-) :-) :-) -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ From: "Hicks, Melissa" To: grm+ , h-costume Subject: RE: Corsets Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 09:16:00 EST < snip > Ok, call me crazy but I really want to try and wear one of those >corsets found under 15th and 16th century garments. >Whats a good pattern and where to locate it? >Chantal Raiments carries two Elizabethan Ren. corset patterns for $7 each. They have a complete kit that includes the patterns & all the materials to make it for $27. Also carry misc. corset bones, busks, etc., & a ton of historical patterns & reference books. Catalog is $5. Raiments PO Box 93095 Pasadena, CA 91109 phone (818) 797-2723 (T-Th 10am-5pm only) fax (818) 791-9434 (24 hrs) Compuserve #72437,674 Hope this helps! --Trystan (who you couldn't get into a Ren. corset unles you paid her -- I'd rather bone the heck out of my bodices, thank you very much!) fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Jul 95 22:05:04 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) To: pacifier!andrew.cmu.edu!h-costume@pacifier.com Subject: Re: Corsets Melissa Hicks wrote: :But I think driving in a bodice is fun! Mind you, you really need to :straighten up the drivers seat. A corset really makes you adopt a correct :posture. I don't think I have ever seen anyone slouch in a corset, though :many have tried 8-) Have you ever seen "Lady Jane". Helena Bonham Carter played Jane Grey and boy, did she slouch in her corset. I where a midTudor corset and can do just about anything in it. (I've been known to do forward rolls just to show that it could be done.) Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 01:17:44 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Tudor bodice > It seems to me that part of the problem is our >bosom-heavy modern figure!!! In most of the period portraits the women look >as if they have no breasts at all. This makes for a little different angle >on the front of the dress, pulling more straight down than down and backward >as they do on us. I too have had a hard time getting the shoulders to stay >up on my dresses, but on my bosom-less eight year old there is no problem!! > That's interesting! Could it be that the length of the back is proportionately too long because of the length required in the front to cover the breasts? Perhaps shortening the shoulder at the back would correct the problem. Just a guess based on this info. (I'm Elizabethan...wider shoulders...no problem staying on...) Kathleen ------------------------------ From: Schuess@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 07:07:55 -0400 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Queen Chains I was wondering if anyone knew the use(s) of queen chains, examples of which appear in a catalogue from 1890. They are typically short (they look to be about 4-6 inches long) and have a decorative bauble on one end and a spring clasp on the other. A few of them split into two or three chains, each with its own bauble. Is this perhaps the counterpart to a man's watch fob? They are pictured on the same page with pocket watches and glove buttoners. Thanks ever so Melanie Schuessler schuess@aol.com ------------------------------ End of Volume 347 -----------------------