From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 15:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 350, 7/26/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 350, July 26, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Question and answer: Tatting on middle-eastern costume Queen chain Computer patterning Corsets Empire Dress pattern opinion Bolivian milkmaid's jacket Oil-cloth and water-seal 1835 man's suit ISO: Computer patterns for men ISO: infon on 19th C Cornish dress and 17th C clothing manufacturing techniques Tudor bodice Physics of fading ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 16:41:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Tracy Miller Subject: Bizarre Costume Question (fwd) This is from the Middle Eastern Dance list. I thought someone here might have some answers. Tracy ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:15:07 -0400 >From: WestWolf@aol.com >To: med-dance@world.std.com >Subject: Bizarre Costume Question Now for the obscure costuming question of the month: (drum roll pleez) Does anyone know whether tatting was used much on middle eastern dance costumes before the turn of the century? (Now, for those of you who don't know what tatting is {and I imagine there's one or two of you :D }, let me tell you: tatting is a form of knotted lace done on shuttles. It's super easy, but pretty obscure.) Most of the books I've seen are totally Eurocentric, but I did read somewhere that tatting had been done in Egypt at some point. Recently I came across two photos of a dancer wearing a vest edged with tatting. In one, the photo is so clear I can actually make out the pattern. Since tatting (a) is one of my hobbies, (b) can be lovely, and (c) is cheap to do, I've started making an edging wide enough to use on a belt. But, I'm wondering. Is there a tradition for this in Egypt or elsewhere? (I'll do it anyway, of course, but if there's a history for it I can get new ideas from it.) Since dancers are a pretty handy and knowledgeable bunch, I thought someone out there might know..... Anyone? :D Thanks! Shiraz San Diego, California - X-For-Help: w/list & associated info (graphics, lyrics, digests, etc), email dancers-archive@world.std.com with SUBJECT: 'help med-dance'. ------------------------------ From: KenDawe@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 21:16:12 -0400 To: Schuess@aol.com, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Queen Chains In a message dated 95-07-20 07:28:33 EDT, Schuess@aol.com writes: >I was wondering if anyone knew the use(s) of queen chains, examples of which >appear in a catalogue from 1890. They are typically short (they look to be >about 4-6 inches long) and have a decorative bauble on one end and a spring >clasp on the other. A few of them split into two or three chains, each with >its own bauble. Is this perhaps the counterpart to a man's watch fob? They >are pictured on the same page with pocket watches and glove buttoners. > > Sounds like a chatellaine, which is, in fact, the ladies equivalent to a watch fob--exactly so, as in addition to sewing supplies and/or keys, a watch might very well be attached to one of the chains. Many of the catelogs that cater to Buckslinners (Dixie Gun Works, Panther Primitives, Tidy's Storehouse) carry them; Tidy's also carrys needle and thimble cases, as well as a bunch of opther appropriate sewing "stuf" to hang fomr one's chatellaine. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 20:06:56 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Pattern making programs This message is actually somewhat premature, in terms of giving people detailed information. I am currently preparing my computer to do pattern work on it. I bought AutoCAD 13, which arrived today and which is not yet installed. I had to upgrade my 486 with more memory and a second hard disk to run AutoCAD. I also bought a digitizing tablet to feed printed scale patterns into AutoCAD so I can work with them. There are several programs with specialized pattern-making features that run on top of AutoCAD. The best one I have literature for is Apparelcad, which does flat pattern work, grading, and has symbols for notches and so on. It also has features for fashion illustration and designing a dress shop. I also have literature for Cadterns, which definitely has fewer features. Autodesk includes a directory of third-party add-ons, _The Autocad Resource Guide_, with their software. Under Fashion/Textile design this lists Betacad AD 2.1 ("libraries of interchangeable fashion design pieces for all body types") and Betacad PDS 3.1 ("pattern design, grading, and marker"). Also Custom Patternmaker ("accurate, custom-sized pattern making for costume and custom garment makers") and PC Pattern ("garment design and flat pattern drafting software"). Apparelcad and Cadterns are listed also, making a total of six programs. All run on a PC, some on a Mac also. I am sending for literature for all these programs. But I can only buy one that has been upgraded to work with Autocad 13, which some of these may not do yet. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 08:40:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine Kehl Subject: Re: Valid Underpinnings & corsets On Fri, 21 Jul 1995 Staylace@aol.com wrote: > Leads to an interesting idea for comment: How many of you DO care. How many > DON't? Out of sight, out of concern? Or is the truth more important? It really depends on what I'm doing. I have some horribly unperiod clothes (I tend to think of them as "con" clothes) which still make showings at the occaisional SCA event. (But then, I don't tend to think of the SCA as a nest of authenticity.) And even here they tend to "look period from a distance". Just be so full of cheats and short cuts.... But when I do it, I do it. (As my aching hands will now attest....) Catherine ------------------------------ From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 11:56:26 -0400 Subject: corsets This is in reply to Chantal, who wants to make a 15th or 16th-century corset. I can say from experience that they are indeed comfortable -- much more comfortable than an ill-fitting bra. Tell your boyfriend that they don't "squish your innards" -- only late Victorian corsets did that. Throughout the rest of history, corsets were practical and comfortable garments. And it's a lot easier to make one corset that you wear under light gowns than it is to bone every single gown you make! A busk or busk bone is a wide, triangular section of wood or bone that you use in the front of your corset, rather than using many bones. My husband made one for me out of a piece of thin wood. A busk keeps the front of the corset very flat. As for wire, special corset boning works best and isn't expensive. Spring boning, despite the sound, also works fine for straight garments. Make sure that the wire curves AWAY from your body. Finally, I used the instructions found in the SCA "Elizabethan Clothing for the Years Something-or-Other," and they work great. Good luck! Gail Finke ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 10:56:33 -0700 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: Empire dress patterns Carol Ann Krug asked >would like to make an Empire period dress to wear, and has found the >following patterns: > Rocking Horse Farm 187 or 188 or 193 >Does anyone have experience with any of the above patterns, I used Rocking Horse Farm 193 (1820s Gown) & was pleased with the results. It's an easy pattern with sufficient instructions. The sizing is a little vague -- I would cut out a muslin of the bodice & fit that before cutting into your good fabric. I added long sleeves to the short puffy ones, a lace overlay to the skirt, a velvet sash, and a lace ruffle to the neckline. A friend used this pattern too & it came out very pretty -- she kept the sleeves short & added lace overlays on the whole thing. Overall, a decent pattern. Thumbs up! --Trystan fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jul 95 21:05:31 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Oil cloth Thanks to everyone for helping me come up with a solution. >If historical accuracy isn't important for this project, >you can treat canvas (and presumably other cloth) with >Thompson's water seal. I do my tents this way. > >You can brush it on. I prefer (except for the expense >of buying enough cans of the Thompsons) to pour it on >the fabric, and let the fabric absorb as much as it >wants. > >Again, you need several days of GOOD ventilation. Hang >the item in the garage, and blow a Big Fan on it for a >few days. > >Just a thought ..... How does this change the substance of the fabric? Does it smell? (It is for a garment...) Catriona ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 03:15:46 GMT From: paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Parks Canada Man's Coat, 1730-1750 Greetings! I thank you for the information. However: > with the exchange rate you " 'Merkin" re-enactors and costumers > will make a good investment. ^^^^^^ > > Sheridan Alder You were aware that a "merkin" is, in fact, a variety of hairpiece and, specifically, a pubic wig? No, I'm not jesting... Quite what that might seem to say about the colonial re-enactors, I'd rather not guess! o-) Paul C. Dickie ------------------------------ Subject: Bolivian Milkmaid's Jacket Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 14:43:29 +0200 From: Harri Kulju ------------------------------ On July 13 KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM said... ******************************************************** Subject: Re: ECW clothing patterns I'll probably get shot for this, but I use the Bolivian Milkmaid Jacket pattern from Folkwear Patterns for most of my 17th century stuff and I have won authenticity awards with my clothing... Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ******************************************************* Actually, this makes a lot of sense! The modern Bolivian women's folk costumes are *based* on Spanish colonial period clothing. In other words, this is what the Spanish were wearing when the native peoples first met them. It just happens that styles changed in Spain and didn't in parts of Boliva. One of my Anthropology teachers when I was an undergrad. had done her fieldwork in Bolivia, so she was my source of info. Erin Winslow p.s. mailing from my SOs account - I don't speak for him or for Lund University! ------------------------------ From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 10:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another corset question Hello again I am sure that you are all sick of this thread, so feel free to respond privatly. My question is, where to get the patterns and how to's for making a corset similar to the ones that were worn in 1730 or so. The back lacing, pointed front with little bows on the shoulder that I have seen only fully made, and very nicely too, in The Bonnie Lass catalog and in movies. Neither Amazon or Raiments carries this pattern. Although I know its woefuly out of Period for SCA, I wanted to try it anyway. I also wanted to know how people found where to place their bonings on corsets or bodices and what materials would be best. I am getting Corsets and Crinolens as well as the Arnold books ( I hope) via inter librabry loan, so haven't had a chance to look at them yet..if the answer is in there THanks again Chantal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 10:30:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Oil cloth On Sat, 22 Jul 1995, Kathleen Leggat wrote: > >If historical accuracy isn't important for this project, > >you can treat canvas (and presumably other cloth) with > >Thompson's water seal. I do my tents this way. > > How does this change the substance of the fabric? Does it smell? > (It is for a garment...) Yeah, it smells, and it makes the fabric rather stiff if you use more than a little brush-on. It works fairly nicely for tents, but _I_ wouldn't advise using it on clothing. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 11:22:59 +0000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Bizarre Costume Request - and Bellydancing Hey there!!! Bellydancing outfits and Tatting - I have consulted the number of middle-eastern women in this office, and have what I think may be the answer. Prior to the Paris Exhibition in the mid-1800's, belly dancing was merely performed within the Harem by the women for the women. The Outfits at the time were the loose baggy trousers, cut-away loose tops, and a sash around the hips to emphasise the movement there. No veils, and definitely no tatting. The Bellydancing exhibit at Paris excited much interest in the "exotic", and the outfits were modified, modified, modified until they hit Hollywood for the grandest of the grand excesses. All the gold coinage, tatting, veiling, dance-of-the-seven-veils, and especially doing it as a public exhibition was added by the European and American influences. This then seeped BACK to the middle east, where it has now been incorporated. So in short, Tatting was NOT part of the genuine belly-dancer's outfit prior to the Paris exhibition, and would probably not have come into the Middle East until early this century. I'll have the title of the reference book for you tomorrow. (Thanks to Shireen Chidiac of mixed Middle-eastern extraction for this information) (Mind you , if I'm wrong, please let us both know!) Gillian Richards ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 23:27:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: 1835 Suit Try "The Cut of Men's Clothes", it has just come back in print. Kat afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu On Fri, 21 Jul 1995, Sue Wall wrote: > > > I am working on a 1835 suit. I have got my vest > pattern graded up and am now working on the jacket pattern. > Where can I find info on making mens patterns. I have tried > the FAQ lists and have gotten several books through the > Libaray. But they are all women's textbooks!!! So I am > looking for a mens pattern making textbook. This project sure > has been teaching me many things. I am enjoying the challenge > of redrawing these patterns. Any help would me appreciated. > ---- --------------------------------- > Name: Sue Wall > E-mail: Sue Wall > Date: 07/21/95 > Time: 09:42:02 > > This message was sent by Chameleon > ------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------ Subject: Sewing Software Programs; Options For Men? Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 14:14:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Alice Morgan" One thing I have not seen covered in some of these reviews of different pattern drafting software, especially if they have limited sets of patterns to start with, is the selection of men's patterns. Modifying womens pattern to remove the breast darts and spread it across the back can be done, but it loses something if the only scaling is in womens sizes. I am as interested in finding good patterns for my SO as I am for myself, and the selection of patterns for men's clothing is pretty bad. (He is quite able to sew his own clothes if needed). Granted there is some choice for historical patterns but these software packages seem focused on modern patterns (at least as a start). I've thought about going to straight CAD packages myself, For one thing, at least they seem to have drivers for the D size plotter I have access to. Anyone had a favorable exposure to pattern drafting programs that include (or allow sizing for men's sizes, or larger womens sizes)? I tried the fittingly sew demo program, which looked the most promising, but it only had misses sizes, and only went up to a misses size 20) thanks Alice Morgan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 19:31:25 +1000 From: bclarke1@metz.une.edu.au (Bronwyn Clarke) Subject: 19C Cornish & 17C New England Hello everyone. Two questions for the accumulated wisdom of all out there: The first is actually for my mother, who wants to know what ordinary Cornish people were wearing in the first half of the nineteenth century. I have many of the standard costume books, but were there particular regional and or occupational (e.g. fishing, mining) styles that anyone knows about? Any descriptions, references or sources would be appreciated. My mother is involved in a Cornish dance group that does displays, and they would like to either wear traditional dress or have a display of traditional dress to set the scene. The second question is mine, and brings together my interests in history, historic costume, and spinning and weaving! I'd like to find out more about how the need to make clothing for themselves and family actually impacted on the everyday lives of women, and compare this between different times and places. My first area to look at is the Puritan communities in New England, USA in the late seventeenth century, as I'm also doing some work on the Salem witch trials. History very rarely mentions the making of clothes, and yet this must have been a significant part of the duties, and therefore the life experience of women in particular. So, could anyone direct me towards information about the making of clothes in this community? For example, were they spinning and weaving their own cloth, was this a family-based activity or were there professionals in each community, was clothing predominantly linen or wool, where did they get the raw materials, etc. I understand that for quite some time, because of the relations between the American colonies and England, very little cloth was imported, and therefore the colonies were much more reliant on homespun than the English were. (This explains the apparent abundance of antique spinning wheels in the US I hear and read about in fibre magazines - here in Australia antique spinning wheels are virtually unknown!) Maybe someone will give me a PhD scholarship for this... :-) Thanks, Bronwyn (who still hasn't started the 1750 mantua yet but *has* managed to find and order some reasonably suitable fabric.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 10:25:43 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Sleeves and Shoulders I seem to have deleted the original request, but, if you want to keep sleeves from falling off shoulders, sew one half of a snap to the centre of an ouchless, stretchy bandaid, the other half to the underside of the sleeve top, and place bandaid on shoulder, positioned so that sleeve top will cover it; snap in place. There are also forms of velcro, one side of which is on sticky tape, the other on fabric, but I haven't tested how the sticky tape (meant for wood or metal, etc.) acts on skin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 10:41:51 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: Physics light and fading colors I didn't know Andrew Wiles had joined this list. And the explanation of light absorption taking place in packets (which move the electrons to a higher energy level) is a quite general phenomenon (Einstein got the prize for explaining that you had to add packets of at least a certain energy amount before electrons would pop out of metals - well they wanted to give him a prize for something, and something about the rules re the discovery or appreciation of the work meant they couldn't give it to him for relativity), and does nothing at all to explain the fading process, which must involve a chemical change in the pigment colouring the material. On Fri, 21 Jul 1995, Zachary Kessin wrote: > > Got to thinking about this last night. > > With regard to the phisics of colors fading under light it works > something like this. Light is composed of photons, discreate > packets each with a set energy to them. The higher the frequency > of the light the more energy, so violet and blue light is of > higher energy than red light. When a photon hits something > like fabric or the retna of your eye if it has enough energy > it causes a reaction of some sort. However two photons of > lower energy will do nothing. Since the whole thing is done > in discrete packets it makes a lot of sense that it > is irelivent if you have a bright light for a short time or a > dim one for a long time. > > > BTW this was all figured out by Albert Einstein in a 1905 > paper. Its what they gave him the nobel prize for. > > > --Zachary Kessin zkessin@bedlham.com > x^n+y^n=z^n has no integer solutions other than 0 for n>2 > I have a wonderful proof of this, but it won't fit in a .sig file. > ------------------------------ End of Volume 350 -----------------------