From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 19:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 352, 7/27/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 352, July 27, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: 17th C new England Costume Sleeves and shoulders Vintage dance classes, SF Bay area Leather weights and sources Lucets Cleaning costumes ISO: Liz Jones Return of "Elizabeth R" Tights vs hose HS Costume sources Corset busks Plastic hanger horror ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 19:28:25 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: 17th c. New England Costume and Bonnie Lass Bronwyn, Diana de Marly's _Dress in North America: The New World 1492-1800_ contains a chapter on 17th-century New England dress. It was published by Holmes & Meier in New York and London in 1990. I'm going to do something I hate when other people do it, which is to ask for an address recently posted here. I saved a printout of the message about the Bonnie Lass catalog and put it in my to-do pile. This weekend I went through my to-do pile, dealt with all kinds of things, and threw out the now irrelevant papers. Unluckily I also threw out the Bonnie Lass address. So if anybody has either a US mail or an e-mail address, I'd appreciate receiving it. Thanks, Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 19:15:08 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Sleeves and Shoulders Heather Rose Jones wrote: :If I recall correctly, the original question had to do with a :Renaissance-era gown with a neckline that was cut low and square both in :the front and the back. And then there was this problem with the sleeves :falling down. But I wonder if all the attention to "cheats" to keep the :sleeves up isn't, perhaps, missing the point. One useful question is: :_did_ these gowns have the neckline described? They know they existed because we have books showing them in their pattern form (Juan de Alcega's 1589 Tailor's Pattern Book. Facsimile published by Ruth Bean) and extant (Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620.) If you look at the patterns in Alcega's pattern book you see that the straps were angled in toward the midline. I can't do it in ASCi, however. We know what the front :looks like from many portraits, but people seem to assume that the back :was cut identically. The very few back-views of gowns of this type that I :can dredge up appear to have a v-shaped neckline in back. This would :certainly help pull the sleeves _in_ rather than _out_. Other front or :3/4 views suggest (my personal interpretation) either this or a fairly :high round line in back. It is quite evident that they had these kinds too (from portrait and drawing documentation). There is even documentation (in the German portraiture only, insofar as I have been able to find) for wearing a small chain across the top of the back neckline. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 20:29:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Sleeves and Shoulders On Mon, 24 Jul 1995 DCROSS@bentley.edu wrote: > neckline. Here's my conflict though, I have never seen an extant low, open > necked chemise that did not have a square cut in the front and back (the back > is a bit higher, but not quite enough to completely get rid of the slipping > sleeve problem. Since I won't stray too far from extant evidence, I have ... > and back had *any* v-neck variation been evident. Anybody out there have > sources with extant chemise info? clear back neckline views that show a > chemise following a v-shape? Sure would make my life easier! Is there any reason why the chemise would have to have the same cut as the gown? If the gown is cut to stay on, it seems to me the chemise would stay in place by simple friction. Here's another question. What about all those portraits of Elizabeth and others that have a low, square neckline in front for the gown, and have a ruff that follows the edge of the front neckline and then appears to curve closely behind the back of the neck? Is there a gap between the ruff and the gown or chemise in back? Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 20:36:24 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Vintage Dance Class in San Franciso Bay Area VINTAGE DANCE CLASSES The East Bay Vintage Dance Society schedule for August and September is: July 29: Victorian dance taught by Stan Isaacs August 5: Ragtime dance taught by Stan Isaacs August 12: Ragtime dance taught by Allan Terry & Frances Grimble August 19: Ragtime dance taught by Stan Isaacs August 26: Ragtime dance taught by Allan Terry & Frances Grimble September 2: Ragtime dance September 9: Ragtime dance September 16: Ragtime dance September 23: Ragtime dance September 30: Ragtime dance The dances taught will include variations of the Boston, hesitation waltzes, maxixe, tango, and animal dances. All dance variations are researched from original sources, and many have not been taught elsewhere in the San Francisco Bay Area (as far as we know). All classes will be held on Saturday mornings, 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. at St. Johns Presbyterian Church 2727 College Avenue, Room 203 Berkeley, California The price is $6/person. No partner required. Men and couples are certainly welcome. But if any women are worried about having a partner--for some reason this class consistently has more men than women. This is a regular series of weekly classes that will continue in upcoming months. For further information, call Clare Peterson at (510) 223-8233. Since Clare is in the process of moving, if you can't reach her try Allan Terry at (415) 566-6259. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: leather Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:46:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Alice Morgan" Kerri Potratz said something close to this: > > > I am interested in starting to work with leather both for garment and for > making armor out of, but I am clueless as to what thicknesses are > approperate for each...especially when it comes to armor. > If anyone has any knowledge that would help me decipher leather charts > (and figure how much this is going to cost me) I would be greatly > appriciative. Leather is expensive, but its a lot of fun to work with. The thickness of leather is measured in "ounces", I believe its based on how much a certain sized sample (possibly a square foot, but I could be wrong there) weighs. The larger the ounces, the thicker (heavier) the leather. I generally figure that 8 ounce leather is approx 1/8 inch thick, and 16 ounce (if you can find it) is about 1/4 inch thick. For garments, there is "garment weight, probably in the 1-2 ounce range. Leather is sold by the square foot, and at least in California, it runs between $4 and $7 a square foot retail. Generally sold as half hides (most commonly) and will yeild approx 20-22 square feet. thats about the same yardage 2 and 1/3 yards of 36 wide fabric, except it does not come in neat rectangles ;-) I imagine you'd probably want to work with at least 6 oz and up leather for armor, possibly boiling it to harden it up. (there is a whole technique for boling leather to shape while it is soft from boiling and letting it harden to hold its shape as it dries and cools. A lot of people get their leather from tandy leather, though I question their quality sometimes. I've had better luck with a place called "The leather Factory", at least their findings seem to be better quality. Phone numbers include: The Leather Factory Fort Worth Texas Several Nationwide Toll free numbers, By state: Arizona (800)432-7732 Califoriana (800) 999-7371 Colorado (800) 525-8134 Iowa (800) 247-5566 Missouri (800) 888-1993 New Mexico (800) 327-6606 Pennsylvania (800) 233-7155 Tennessee (800) 251-7782 Texas (800) 433-3201 Utah (800) 448-9250 Washington (800) 822-8437 They have a Old West focus, so for SCA, you may have some trouble with some of the bits. I don't focus on the SCA, so you'd probably want to find somone that focus on the armor aspect. You'll need some tools to work the leather, but you can probably get a good start with a supply or razor blades and a "speedy stitcher", its a heavy neadle with a spool of thread in the handle, slow, but will allow you to sew heavier leather. Hope that helps Alice Morgan ------------------------------ From: Pam Rowe (Mrs. J. Pollard) Subject: Re: Lucet Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:40:53 -0500 (CDT) On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, kpotratz@sunfish wrote: > What is Lucet Cording? (blush) > and are those looms you gave prices of? > *Kerri Potratz**University of South Dakota* > > On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, dbrowne wrote: > > Last weekend I found someone who sells lucet made of various > > hardwoods, they seem to be well finished and are of a good size to fit > > the hand. > > Katrinn/Kathy B Lucet cording is a method of knotting which yields a strong length of cord. It is more akin to macrame than to weaving. A lucet is a small hand-held device, usually carved from wood, which is shaped in a lyre-like form. The two "horns" of the lyre make up the working area of the lucet. I do not have any documentation on how historically accurate the devices are, but they are the best method I have yet found of producing one's own cord for the purpose of lacing. --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ Pam Rowe (Rowanna in the SCA) | I speak for no one but myself!! prowe@msrcnavo.navy.mil | Located in soggy south Mississippi/Louisiana!! ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 09:57:49 EST Subject: Re[2]: Sleeves and Shoulders In reply to Heather Rose Jones' (rhetorical) question about ruffs and necklines, sometimes the ruffs were supported by the supportasse, which was a wire (or sometimes stiffened parchment) contraption that held them up, I have never seen a supportasse sitting *outside* the gown or doublet, which would be plainly visible if it were, so it must be *inside* the gown or doublet. This would indicate that the garment had a fairly high neckline in back. Careful studies of Clouet and other period portraitists might further prove this. I also seem to recall that the Holbein sketch showing the back of the gown (a v- neckline) also showed the chemise in the usual place across the back of the neck. I'll go check out the picture again to be sure. If women were wearing square-necked chemises (i.e., alow, square yoke with the rest of the chemis gathered onto it) as they seemed to be in earlier Tudor times, then it is possible that the chemise might not show at the back, depending on how low the V was. Anyway, just my 2 cents worth. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: English Early 16th century gown Date: 25 Jul 95 16:09:00 BST The only back view I know of a gown of the English 1530s is the Holbein drawing which shows a V, by memory about down to the level of her armpits, which is plenty low enough to muck up the sleeve heads. I haven't seen any square, low backs to gowns in England - someone said they had seen some - I would love to know where. As I remember the Cranach gowns, which have got low, square necks at back and front, and look quite perilous to wear (although some of them look as though they are made of muslin (very light cotton, open weave), which would be light even in the quantities used), they are much lighter in construction than the contemporary English gowns. You just don't see that stiff, strong bodice look, which can stand by itself and tends to shove the sleeve heads up. Without that the gown tends to hang from the shoulders (as I know from my cost when I didn't make the gown tight enough!), rather like bra straps. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 09:21:48 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Re[2]: Sleeves and Shoulders On Mon, 24 Jul 1995 DCROSS@bentley.edu wrote: > and back had *any* v-neck variation been evident. Anybody out there have > sources with extant chemise info? clear back neckline views that show a > chemise following a v-shape? Sure would make my life easier! Isn't there a drawing of Sir Thomas More and family that clearly shows at least one gown with a v-necked back? I believe the drawings are by Holbein; perhaps they are preliminaries to the actual portrait. Gail DeCamp decampg@smtplink.ngc.com ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 09:38:21 TZ Subject: RE: leather | I am interested in starting to work with leather both for garment and for | making armor out of, but I am clueless as to what thicknesses are | approperate for each...especially when it comes to armor. That depends on what type of armor you want to make. For fencing armor, which is the only armor I can speak for, the leather must be at least 4 ounces in "weight" (thickness). Keep in mind, however, that leather is a natural product, not manufactured. For this reason, hides often have thin and thick spots. Make sure there are no spots that are thinner than 4 ounces when you cut your pieces. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 19:53:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: Cleaning Question Cat: Call Baer's Fabric in Louisville, KY and ask for Kevin or Connie in the theatrics area. Ask them for Fresh Again, it is a "deoderizer" for clothing. You just spray it on, let it dry and it takes all the foul odors out of your costumes. You can also find dry cleaning fluid at you local fabric store with which you can spot clean your garments. A small bit of trivia for all you costumers, Fresh Again was developed by the air travel industry to remove odors from the cabins of airplanes. Hope this helps. Kat afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, Catherine Kinsey wrote: > I have a question for all the theatrical costumes, or > anyone with a helpful suggestion; I have heard of a > method for cleaning costumes using either grain or > rubbing alchol. It is either spritzed on and allowed to > evaporate or spritzed heavier and then soaked up. Is > this for real? > > I have a couple of costumes I would like get through > several weekends of midwest heat and humidity at a > local renfair. The gentleman who will be wearing > them sweats a lot, to put it mildly. It is a 1530's era > Tudor costume of brocades which have been lined > with cotton whenever possible. I would like to avoid > dry-cleaning as much as possible because of the > embellishements. > > Any helpful hints would be greatly appreciated. > > Cat' > ckinsey@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu > > ------------------------------ From: TheaG@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 20:34:40 -0400 Subject: bias-cut hose I apologize for sending this to the list but I'm having trouble replying to a message sent me by Liz Jones. Liz, please contact me again. TheaG@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Etienette@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 20:36:15 -0400 Subject: Elizabeth R videos Greetings, Oh Joy!! Oh Rapture!!! Elizabeth R comes to video!!!!! I thought that you might like to know that Elizabeth R is now on video. (I have already ordered my copy!!!!) The set is $149.98 + shipping from Britannia Video Collection. The phone number is 1-800-778-7077. They do take Credit cards and will do monthly installments to the Credit card. The order # for the videos is #42578. Best Regards Etienette ------------------------------ From: ChesHav@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 01:49:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Sleeves and Shoulders Melissa, A cheat that may or may not work is clear elastic. The Ballet companies use it extensively for many of thier costumes. It is cheap, very transparent, and it has a good grip on the skin. Experiment first on a bodice out of muslin. Ciao Ches ------------------------------ From: MerrimacGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 03:47:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Sleeves and Shoulders Regarding the necklines of Renaissance, specifically I believe 16th century, dresses. I have books and other items with pictures of Renaissance dress in line drawings, paintings and artists' recreations which show or suggest that the most popular cut for the back of the neckline was a slightly rounded one that was either just below the nape of the neck or just above the shoulder blades. Some also appear to have been V-shaped (European only). Some, both European and English, appear to have been angled toward the neck in front with a straight back at the nape (instead of the usual right angles in front). Also, many had elaborate high collars and ruffs which may have been part of the dress rather than the chemise beneath. Note, too, the fact that many, even at that early period in history, seem to have had a constricting nature towards arm movement. The shoulders and sleeves are done in such a tight manner that perhaps that is what kept them from falling. On the subject of cheating methods to keep the shoulders from falling: unless you're using methods that require the use of notions and other items not available in some form or another during those times, who's to say that you're not using methods that were actually applied in those days? One method I use, and which has worked pretty well in the Renaissance outfits I have made, is to sew at an angle starting at the normal seamline at the shoulder and finishing with a deeper seam at the neckline thus making the neckline tighter than what your pattern calls for. Another method: try safety-pinning your dress shoulders to your chemise underneath. Safety pins have been in use in various forms since the times of the Greeks and the Romans. MerrimacGA@aol.com (Mary Macdonald) ------------------------------ Subject: Men in tights =) From: ke6isf@outlander (Dennis Allen Carr) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 20:27:19 PDT It seems like every time I see a men's medieval or rennaisance costume it generally involves a pair of tights. Somehow, though, I don't think this is truly authentic. (I am assuming here that they did not have any materials even remotely like today's spandex.) In short, could somebody tell me if tights are truly authentic? Thanks in advance! =) KE6ISF uublip!outlander!ke6isf@ccss.com Just say NO.J.! The only true Ben Franklin look-alike! Driving people insane since 1974.... ------------------------------ Subject: High School Costume Supplies? From: ke6isf@outlander (Dennis Allen Carr) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 01:38:29 PDT Believe Rodo on Network was the topic on this one - wanted to know about High School Costume supplies. You can check with any costume shop - they're expensive for the manufacture, but they're generally high quality. (If you're local to Buena Park, CA, I highly recommend Astrids Costumes. I'll post the number by request only.) Also, I am trying to relocate a catalog, the name of which I believe is "Atlantic Blades". If I find it, I'll post the number- they have a handful of different costumes. Unless somebody else can post the number? KE6ISF uublip!outlander!ke6isf@ccss.com Just say NO.J.! The only true Ben Franklin look-alike! Driving people insane since 1974.... ------------------------------ Date: 26 Jul 95 11:28:42 EDT From: Larry Farris <73764.2675@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Corset Busk In response to Chantel (#2 what is a corset busk?). I have found that the best and cheapest way to emulate whalebone (busk were often made of whalebone) is 1/8" plexiglass. A fabricator will often, sometimes just for the amusement quotient if you explain the purpose, reproduce your pattern in plex. It is then slipped into a pocket in your corset front. The plex will flex slightly with your body, thus adding to the comfort of your corset and again duplicating the effect of bone. P.S. - Elaborately carved busks were also incredibly intimate gifts between gents and ladies in the 16th and 17th centuries. Alysea of Ashley (mka Karen Farris) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:50:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: safety pins >Safety pins have been in use >in various forms since the times of the Greeks and the Romans. Ok, I'll bite. Exactly what various forms were available? And from what sources comes the information? I've been told that our current safety pin was not around before mid 1800's <============================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:07:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sharon L. Nelson" Subject: Plastic Hanger Horrors Greetings from a digest-mode lurker, Wanted to pass along a recent unfortunate incident as an 'FYI': I put some clothes in storage in an attic when I was between houses for about a year. I made sure to use plastic hangers so the wire ones wouldn't rust, and put the clothes in heavy-duty plastic garment bags as the attic was pretty dirty. I recently opened up one of the bags and discovered that on one white cotton blouse the color of the plastic hanger had bled through to the garment. This was the only item so damaged. I haven't tried washing the blouse yet but the stain looks pretty permanent (the blouse has dark blue trim on it so I don't want to use bleach). I'm sure the fact that the garment was in a hot attic enclosed in plastic created the problem. The blouse is not a great loss, but I wanted to pass the word on that colored plastic hangers can cause damage under some circumstances! Sharon SCA - Maria Anna von Rabenstern =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= + Sharon L. Nelson sln@nccseq.noctrl.edu + | Systems Administrator, Computer Support | + North Central College, Naperville, IL 60540 + =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ------------------------------ End of Volume 352 -----------------------