From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 17:49:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 353, 7/28/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 353, July 28, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: History of safety pins Corset comfort and boning Tatting and middle eastern costume Evolution of trowsers Fitting advice for "Corsets and Crinolines" patterns Question and answer:Cutting sideless surcoats Tights vs hose ISO: Patterns for SCA wear ISO: Costuming and kit catalogs Waterproofing fabric ISO: Name of Puritan mens hat ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eva_maddox@odp.tamu.edu Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 12:43:04 CDT Subject: Safety pins >Safety pins have been in use >in various forms since the times of the Greeks and the Romans. I don't know about the history of safety pins, but I do know that they are as valuable to costumers as duct tape is to handymen (as touted on _The Red Green Show_ on PBS). I could not survive a single production without them! ******************************************************************** |~ Eva M. Maddox, Editor /|\ Ocean Drilling Program / | \ Texas A&M University / | \ Give me a tall ship /___|___\ and a star to sail Eva_Maddox@odp.tamu.edu _______|_______ her by . . . \___________/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 15:38:08 -0600 From: Catherine Kinsey Subject: Corsets Jumping on this bandwagon a little late; I am another zaftig figure who is *very* comfortable in a boned corset/bodice. When it fits correctly! While they can be very forgiving with weight fluctuations, if I have really changed my size I find I do need to do another pattern. I do need to remember to lace up my boots first before I put it on however. I draft my patterns from a method developed by a friend in the American Sewing Guild. She had been testing it in the SCA for several years and we gave it the acid test this spring, drafting patterns for about 20 folks in the local RenFair. These ranged from petite to zaftig body types. We got a load of scrap denim from the local jean company and used this for mockups, allowed for better approximation of fit. The finished costumes are starting to show up at rehearsals are looking great. One trick we have found is to actually cut the boning a little shorter than the casing length, sometimes by as much as 1-1 1/2 inch. This allows for more flexiblity and reduces some of the wear. I have used both the pre-cut bones (from Hedhog Handworks) and strapping wire. Strapping wire was definately the most inexpensive, once I had invested in tin snips and Dip-it. The guys at the local fabric warehouse had a fun afternoon digging the wire out of the trash bins for me, I still have a sackful :). I have even used it for hooping wire but I think I prefer the pre-measured bones for stays. They were more washable and seemed more flexible when I wore them. Having the tin snips and Dip-it already on hand it was never a problem to trim them if I had an awkward length to fill. Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about cleaning. I get the list in digest form and hadn't seen it in a digest so I wasn't sure if it had gotten through. I have several ideas to follow up on. Thanks again. Cat' SCA: Liriel Correll ckinsey@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu ------------------------------ From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 13:35:00 PDT Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 350, 7/26/95 Re: tatting and middle east costume What a nice break from corsets! (no offence anybody) The explanation of the "cross-fertilization" of dancers costumes is certainly correct (at least as far as the books I have read go). I would like to add a note about "tatting" tho', assuming I understand what tatting actually is! To me, tatting is that kind of crocheted stuff you see around the edges of handkerchiefs, etc. Anyway...there is a kind of "lace", sometimes metal lace, worked around the edges of scarves in Turkey. It isn't a trim added on, it's actually worked on the edge of the fabric. Sometimes little beads are added. I cannot for the life of me remember what it is called, but it's very well known by textiley/Turkey people. It is not inconceivable that this could have been used on the edge of a vest...but it may not be the same thing originally asked about. (If anyone else knows about this, help!) For more about the fascinating history of eastern dance and wonderful costumes, paintings, etc., see "Serpent of the Nile" by Wndy Buonaventura. ciao bella(s) Susan Fatemii susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:13:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: Re: safety pins Greek chitons were fastened with pins called fibulae, which were originally straight with elaborate heads. Jocasta used hers to stab her eyes out in Oedipus Rex. Later the pin was bent into a circle, crwating a spring as in a safety pin, and then fastened back onto a hook that was part of the head. Straight fibula were outlawed in 5th century Athens, Apparently because women were using them as protective devices(similiar to a hat pin). On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Deb wrote: > >Safety pins have been in use > >in various forms since the times of the Greeks and the Romans. > > Ok, I'll bite. Exactly what various forms were available? > And from what sources comes the information? > I've been told that our current safety pin was not around > before mid 1800's > > <============================================================> < > Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 19:12:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: safety pins I really hate to be picky, but greek tragedy is one of my specialties. Jocasta hung herself, Oedipus jabbed his eyes out with her brooches. "...........There, there, we saw his wife hanging, the twisted rope around her neck. When he saw her, he cried out fearfully and cut the dangling noose. Then, as she lay, poor woman, on the ground, what happened after, was terrible to see. He tore the brooches- the gold chased brooches fastening her robe- away from her and lifting them up high dashed them on his own eyeballs, shrieking out such things as: they will never see the crime I have committed or had done upon me!" Oedipus the King lines 1264-1272 Another "fastenating" piece of trivia, when they uncovered the remains of a greek island off the coast of crete (which they believe is the basis for the Atlantis myth) they found fibulae imbedded in the walls. The force of the volcanoe blast was as strong as the atomic bomb blast on Hiroshima. Kat afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Kimberly Smay wrote: > Greek chitons were fastened with pins called fibulae, which were > originally straight with elaborate heads. Jocasta used hers to stab her > eyes out in Oedipus Rex. Later the pin was bent into a circle, crwating a > spring as in a safety pin, and then fastened back onto a hook that was > part of the head. Straight fibula were outlawed in 5th century Athens, > Apparently because women were using them as protective devices(similiar > to a hat pin). > > On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Deb wrote: > > > >Safety pins have been in use > > >in various forms since the times of the Greeks and the Romans. > > > > Ok, I'll bite. Exactly what various forms were available? > > And from what sources comes the information? > > I've been told that our current safety pin was not around > > before mid 1800's > > > > <============================================================> < > > Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 21:26:39 +0000 From: michaels@SciFac.usyd.edu.au Subject: trowsers Dear Colleagues I'm not a historian of fashion, but would like to learn about one aspect of dress. I am presently working on the development of the field sciences in early 19th century Britain (that is geology, botany, etc), and the relation of this to pedestrianism. Walking became a prominent British activity from around the 1790s onwards. What had earlier been conceived of as a proletarian, degraded activity (why walk when one could travel by carriage or horse?) was now promoted for various reasons, medical, Romantic, scientific etc. When Coleridge set off around Wales in 1794, as a young Cambridge student, he dressed 'down' as a kind of democratic statement, 'mixing with the people', etc. (This much is clear from his letters, from Holmes' biography, and from J. Hucks' account of the tour). Coleridge wore 'trowsers'. I would like to know: 1. was this in some senses (what senses?) a 'radical' sartorial statement? 2. what were the options? 3. were trousers rather like ski pants today, tapered towards the shoe rather than wide at the bottom? 4. would anyone know of contemporary accounts of the trowsers? I would be exceddingly grateful for any help in these matters. I've checked many histories of fashion, but I don't think these are helpful, dealing as they do with 'high' fashion. Trowsers seem to me to have been, precisely, 'low' fashion. Thanks in advance Michael Shortland ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Shortland Email : michaels@scifac.su.oz.au Unit for the History and Philosophy of Science F07 _--_|\ University of Sydney / \ Sydney NSW 2006 \_.--._ /* Australia Fax : 02 351 4124 Tel : 02 351 4801 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:04:26 +0000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: "Corset & Crinoline" Fittings I have made a couple of the corsets from "Corsets and Crinolines", and I found the following useful: 1) First, I enlarge the pattern given from the book using a photocopier (and the backs of scrap paper, especially with the intermediate copies - it sometimes takes about 4 enlarges to get up to size) 2) At the point just before I get to what I think is full size, I measure the bust and waist pieces and calculate how much larger I have to go. Be warned that the bust size will end up about 3 inches less than your real bust, depending on how much "squish" you are going to allow, and the same with waistline. You don'ty believe me? Measure the "real" size of your waist, then get into a pair of snug (not tight) jeans and see the difference. 3) Then, take your one-less-than-real size paper model and cut it out and make a paper model out of it! It really shows you possible "problem" points like unrealisticly-narrow backs. 4) Once you have your full-size paper pieces, now is the time to make adjustments for tiny waists, narrow backs, no-space-for-the-bust, etc. Try to make any adjustments where there a straight lines on the pattern - I adjusted the 1908 corset at the back by measuring out 2 cm from the waistline on the same line as the waist, then drawing straight lines from the top corners of the corste to these points. Unfortunately, the bust seam was curved so I couldn't adjust - which explains why my breasts sit an awful lot more forward than they ought. 5) Now add your seam allowances. 6) Trace all this onto pattern tissue (or greaseproof, if you're cheap like me) and you have your basic pattern. I also find it useful to cut out the full-size paper pattern, stick it together and try it against me. This is what alerted me to the very short bodies of some of them, (I am 5'9" and long-waisted). Go for it! Gillian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 23:41:42 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: sideless surcote Hi! I have been going through the archives, chopping interesting bits which I then print for my own files and email to a costumer friend of mine. To save on space I have been just keeping the relevant information, without names, etc. Obviously, this was a bad idea, as my friend would like more information from the one who wrote: >> I am >>5'9", and and made a VERY full velvet sideless surcote (with a >>reasonable train and lots of fullness on the side) with 4 yards of >>fabric. My scrap was a handfull of shavings - no useable fabric, no >>waste. If you think about the cost of fabric during the period, and the >>amount of labour that went into every piece of yardage, and that these >>heraldic garments were passed down thru generations, this is a > >wonderful, practical garment for everyday wear! The questions are: what was your cutting layout? How wide was the fabric? And how many pieces was the skirt in? I would be greatly appreciated if the original poster could contact me with this information, so I can pass it on. Thank you. Kathleen (Catriona) (I'm learning so much from this list...I can't wait to look of some of the sources people have suggested.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 23:41:45 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Men In Tights I think this message came from this list. I erased it before I made sure. If it didn't, please let me know. >It seems like every time I see a men's medieval or rennaisance costume it >generally involves a pair of tights. Somehow, though, I don't think this >is truly authentic. (I am assuming here that they did not have any >materials even remotely like today's spandex.) > >In short, could somebody tell me if tights are truly authentic? Thanks >in advance! =) > They didn't have tights, they had hose. They were usually cut and sewn to the shape of the leg, and held on by garters to the waistband, (if high) and/or gartered at the knee. There were a variety of ways of gartering, as the fashions came and went. (Shakespeare speaks scathingly of cross-gartering in one of his plays...the basic concept was that it was a silly, fopish affectation) The hose were constructed as two seperate legs, and were *not* sewn together like pantyhose. (Hence the codpiece) The source for that last bit of information is Jean Clarles Black of Ryerson Polytechnical Institute in Toronto, from a seminar she held in St. Catharines. Late 16th century, knitted silk hose became fashionable, after Good Queen Bess was given a pair and proclaimed them vastly superior. These, I imagine, would have some stretch. I have owned knitted silk socks, and they had some cling. There are many, many awarded costumers out there who know more about this than I. I'm simply responding in case no one else thinks to. Hope this answers your question. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 21:57:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jo Jann Subject: I NEED GARB! Hello all. I'm a newbie to the SCA (about 3 months now) and I REALLY need some garb. Although i'm not quite sure of my persona, i plan on being some sort of jester/fool and/or bard. I've looked thru my library, and havent found any period jester outfits. A few children's patterns, but nothing useable. If anyone has and info on fool's outfits, it would be greatly appreshated (wow i can spell) Also i am looking for a cloak pattern, or plan. I've found a pattern that would work, but it takes 6 yards! Most of which went to waste. Considering the fabric i would like to use is $8+ a yard, i would like to use as little as possible! any ideas? thanx in advance jojo jann SCA: Anastasia THE FOOL! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 22:47:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: sideless surcote On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Kathleen Leggat wrote: > The questions are: what was your cutting layout? How wide was the > fabric? And how many pieces was the skirt in? > > I would be greatly appreciated if the original poster could contact > me with this information, so I can pass it on. I'm not the original poster, but I'll share with you a sideless surcoat pattern that I have. It's taken from a late 13th century Spanish garment and I worked out that pattern on the basis of a photograph in Florence Lewis May's "Silk Textiles of Spain" (p.104). The fabric is relatively narrow -- it looks to me like it's around 9-12 inches wide -- and has a pattern of small heraldic shields woven into it. This is useful, because there are places in the garment where you can see the shields upside-down, which helps determine some aspects of the cut. The torso section is cut separately from the skirt and looks slightly narrower than the fabric width (maybe) with semi-circular "wings" at the shoulders. (There's no visible seam where the wings come out, but they're too wide to have been cut in a piece with the torso from the same width shown in the skirt.) The front (visible) half of the skirt is composed of three panels the (presumed) width of the fabric with a pair of gores on either side (i.e., where the front half meets the back half). The center panel appears to be pleated at the top, for the two panels on either side of it are brought to meet in the center front. There is are small triangular gores set into the seams joining the three panels and going from the floor about 2/5 of the way up the skirt. The skirt (perhaps also the torso section?) is lined with fur. The small triangular gores have the fabric pattern upside-down. I'll do my best at an ASCII sketch of the pieces and how they go together. ______ ______ \ | | / \ \ / / \ | / | | | | | | | | | | |_______| ____ _________ _____ __ __ ___ / | | | | \___ __ __ | \ | \ | | | | | | / | / | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | \ | \ | | | | | | / | / | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |\ | | /| | | | | | | | | | | | | || | | | | | | | | | | | \ | \ | | | \ | | / | | | / | / | |_____| |_____| |_______| |__| |_______| |__| |_______| |_____| |_____| It looks like each pair of side gores is cut from one width of the fabric, going in opposite directions. Since the gores showing on the front of the skirt all have the pattern going the "right" way, this implies that those on the back will all have the pattern upside-down. A friend and I put a surcoat together from this layout. My initial guesses on some of the proportions seemed to be a bit off, but after we injected a fair amount of common sense into the process, we came out with a nice garment that even looked something like the original. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ From: Drider454@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 07:38:10 -0400 Subject: Hi All ( CATALOGS ) Hi can you give me the name and addresses of companys that put out Catalogs for for stuf that deals with S.C.A. stuf. E-Mail address D Rider454@aol.com with catalog as the subject ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 95 09:55:07 BST From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 350, 7/26/95 > > > >If historical accuracy isn't important for this project, > > >you can treat canvas (and presumably other cloth) with > > >Thompson's water seal. I do my tents this way. > > > > How does this change the substance of the fabric? Does it smell? > > (It is for a garment...) > > Yeah, it smells, and it makes the fabric rather stiff if you use more > than a little brush-on. It works fairly nicely for tents, but _I_ > wouldn't advise using it on clothing. You could try Granger's Fabsil. I've only used it on nylon, but I'm pretty sure it works on natural fabrics too. Totally non-period, but it doesn't smell once its dried, and isn't stiff. I did have a nylon tent that recommended banana oil for proofing the groundsheet. I've no idea whether its really made from bananas, or how long its been in use, but you can buy it in model shops - its used for doping the tissue paper on model aircraft. I wasn't very impressed with the result though - a bit stiff, with a tendancy to crack when tightly rolled. ------------------------------ From: Tracy023@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 09:01:30 -0400 Subject: Proper Terminology query Does anyone know the proper name for the round, close-fitting, brimless hats that Puritan men wore around 1630? I wish I could describe them better but encyclopedias show them being worn by Puritan leaders like Richard Mather and William Endecott. The one that Endecott is shown wearing appears to have some kind of flap or short train hanging across the back of his neck [the effect is somewhat like the baseball caps that street gang members today wear backwards with the bill hanging over the back of their necks.] Thank you. Tracy Tracy 023@aol.com ------------------------------ From: ARISAID@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:15:39 -0400 Subject: Re: safety pins Dear Deb: The modern type safety pin was invented c. 1842, it was brass with a scared head instead of our rounded one. Not available during Rev. War. Take Care, Karen, owner The Bonnie Lass Historical Clothier ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:30:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: safety pins On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Katherine L. Rodman wrote: > Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 19:12:21 -0400 (EDT) > From: Katherine L. Rodman > To: Kimberly Smay > Cc: Deb , h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu > Subject: Re: safety pins > > I really hate to be picky, but greek tragedy is one of my specialties. > Jocasta hung herself, Oedipus jabbed his eyes out with her brooches. > Dear Ms. Rodman: I do not know ancient greek, but when I was translating the Pearl and Gawain and the Green Knight from the original, I noticed faulty and inconsistant translations over the proper identity of clothing. I compared the Gawain with two popularly accepted translations, one by Brian Stone which translated some piece of armor and clothing incorrectly. Apparently incredible historians and philologists just may not know what a specific mundane article should be described as, and one should not necessarily expect them to know. I mention this because I am asking of the original ancient greek from (is it Euripides or Aeschylus?) whomever wrote the Oedipus cycle, that this part of the translation is from, is for the greek brooch, or the greek article that constituted the safety pin? The translator may have used brooch not knowing it was more exactly the fibulae(that sounds latin). Anyway, you may certainly be correct, but to one as ignorant in ancient greek terminology and clothing history as I am, would like an explanation via the actual term and language used by the greeks as further proof that Jocasta's brooches were not actually her fibulae. Or are you saying that yes the brooches are fibulae, and are only correcting the mistake in referencing the method of death for the protaganists? Thank you. Your servant, Teresa > > Kat > afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu > > On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Kimberly Smay wrote: > > > Greek chitons were fastened with pins called fibulae, which were > > originally straight with elaborate heads. Jocasta used hers to stab her > > eyes out in Oedipus Rex. Later the pin was bent into a circle, crwating a > > spring as in a safety pin, and then fastened back onto a hook that was > > part of the head. Straight fibula were outlawed in 5th century Athens, > > Apparently because women were using them as protective devices(similiar > > to a hat pin). > > ------------------------------ Subject: Re: safety pins Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:29:09 -0400 From: Elizabeth Lear I've seen ancient safety pins in museums. Remember we're not talking about the kind seen today, which we can all agree aren't period. But the ones in museums are a single piece of wire - a sharp point, with the rest of the wire bent back and then formed into a loop at the top to hold the pointed end closed. I've even seen some modern designer pins that used the same concept, though the modern ones tended to be purely ornamentation. Imagine making a safety pin-type object from a paper clip. What you'd do to achieve your end is pretty much what was done in period. ...eliz ------------------------------ End of Volume 353 -----------------------