From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 18:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 354, 7/28/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 354, July 28, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Cloak suggestions Tights vs hose Making patterns Safety pin history History of trowsers Backs of gowns ISO: Fabric stores and other stops near Portland, Maine ISO: bibliographic info on "Irish Dress" Hat book for sale On knitted stockings Computer pattern programs for men's patterns ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Psobaka@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:34:56 -0400 Subject: Re: I NEED GARB! Anastasia, Forgive me if this suggestion is just to expensive but... Go ahead and get the six yards of fabric for the cloak. Use the remnants from cutting ( the stuff I call Cabbage) and make other garb from it. If the layout you are speaking of is the same as I think it is you should have enough material to make a sleeved doublet and hat and purse or a very nice over-tunic from the scraps, depending on when you have placed yourseslf in time. For a Motley (ie. fools garb) dagging and parti-coulor was fairly common in some time periods and serves rather well for the SCA fools I know. Hope this Helps Mieka psobaka@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Psobaka@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:31:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Men In Tights Tights like we wear today are not quite right. The hosen worn in period was frequently bias cut cloth. This style requires carefull fitting to fit properly. The fit is nothing like what you see in the movies or what you could expect out of the later knitted stockings. (forgive me I am uncertian of the exact date knitted silk hose became common in Europe) Most of the recreationists I know use either the bias cut style or simply don't worry about it and use modern dance hose in a non shiny cotton. Hope that helps, Mieka psobaka@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1995 10:23:05 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Patterns 7/27/95 10:19 AM Patterns Good morning and happy Thursday to you all. I have been taught by a friend who makes patterns (as well as clothing/costume/garb) for others, to start with the want ads section from the newspaper, along with a magic marker and scotch tape. You can't beat the price for the materials and the paper already has lines on it! Then when you get something that looks like it has a chance of fitting, go to unbleached muslin. Unbleached is really cheap, and is a little more substantial than pattern cloth. Once you are pinned into the muslin pattern, mark where you want the seams to go with the magic marker. Take the pieces apart, add seam allowances, and cut. Mark your pieces with words like front, top, fold here, etc. while you can remember what you have. Then it's safe to get out the expensive fabric, although, chicken heart that I am, I tend to cut out the lining first and make triple sure before I touch that velvet with scissors. Carole Newson-Smith (SCA Cordelia Toser) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:51:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: safety pins On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Teresa Shannon wrote: > > I really hate to be picky, but greek tragedy is one of my specialties. > > Jocasta hung herself, Oedipus jabbed his eyes out with her brooches. > > > not actually her fibulae. Or are you saying that yes the brooches are > fibulae, and are only correcting the mistake in referencing the method of > death for the protaganists? Thank you. A fibula is a _type_ of brooch. (Amusing trivia: the bone in your leg called a "fibula" is so named because it resembles the shape of the long, straight style of brooch by that name.) In the original Latin, I don't believe that any particular shape was specified by "fibula"; it seems to be a diminutive of the (unattested?) word "fiba" which is related to the verb "figo" (to fix, fasten, attach). Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:02:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: Re: trowsers The references I have encountered to trowsers are in histories of scottish wear. According to the information I have read, trowsers were in use in scotland before the kilt or plaid became common. The descriptions are of a narrow legged pant, but it's been years since I read that material and I don't remember more. On Thu, 27 Jul 1995 michaels@SciFac.usyd.edu.au wrote: > Dear Colleagues > > I'm not a historian of fashion, but would like to learn about one aspect of > dress. I am presently working on the development of the field sciences in > early 19th century Britain (that is geology, botany, etc), and the relation > of this to pedestrianism. Walking became a prominent British activity from > around the 1790s onwards. What had earlier been conceived of as a > proletarian, degraded activity (why walk when one could travel by carriage > or horse?) was now promoted for various reasons, medical, Romantic, > scientific etc. When Coleridge set off around Wales in 1794, as a young > Cambridge student, he dressed 'down' as a kind of democratic statement, > 'mixing with the people', etc. (This much is clear from his letters, from > Holmes' biography, and from J. Hucks' account of the tour). Coleridge wore > 'trowsers'. I would like to know: > > 1. was this in some senses (what senses?) a 'radical' sartorial statement? > > 2. what were the options? > > 3. were trousers rather like ski pants today, tapered towards the shoe > rather than wide at the bottom? > > 4. would anyone know of contemporary accounts of the trowsers? > > I would be exceddingly grateful for any help in these matters. I've checked > many histories of fashion, but I don't think these are helpful, dealing as > they do with 'high' fashion. Trowsers seem to me to have been, precisely, > 'low' fashion. > > Thanks in advance > > Michael Shortland ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:46:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Carol Cannon Subject: RE: Sleeves/Backs of Gowns On p. 16-17 of: De Duerer a Friedrich : dessins allmands du Wallarf-Richartz Museum de Cologne: ... , published in Rennes by the Museee des beaux-arts de Rennes in 1994 [ISBN: 2901430279] is a penned drawing of Sainte Catherine by Albrecht Duerer, done ca. 1495 and now house in the Berlin Kupferstichkabinett, Inventory #: Z129 ; H.9,232 ; L.0,203. Ste. Catherine's gown is depicted with the usual front, i.e. barely scooped/nearly straight-across the front of her, with sleeves that begin at the point of her shoulder. It appears to be heavily jewelled/decorated. She is kneeling. This is on p. 16. On p. 17, she is depicted kneeling, but the perspective is from the back. The neck of the gown is 'v'd' down to about the beltline of the later Empire period styles--and this gown does appear to be belted there, as well. I hope this will be helpful to someone. Carol J. Bell Cannon cjcannon@ucdavis.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 17:23:03 -0400 From: pquarter@vt.edu (Peggy Quarterman) Subject: Fabric Stops Hello. My office mate is planning a trip to Portland, Maine and will be traveling by car. Could anyone give her tips on "good" fabric stores, museums to visit, places to eat, and most especially eaterys in Portland, etc. to hit on her way up or back? She will be traveling from Roanoke, Virginia up the coast. Any suggestions would be appreciated. *********************** Peggy Quarterman College of Forestry and Wildlife Resources pquarter@vt.edu (eudora system) brettieq@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu (internet) 703-231-5481 Yesterday is the past, tomorrow is the future, but today is a gift...that's why it is called the present. -- unknown *********************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 17:51:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: safety pins Teresa: The inference was made only in context with how each character was disposed of, so to speak. "Oedipus at Colonus" makes no sense if Oedipus is not blind. My response was directed towards the mistaken idea that Jocasta had stabbed her own eyes out when in fact it had been Oedipus who struck the blinding blows. I have over a half dozen different versions of this script and in each translation there is a slight variation. In the Kenneth Cavendar translation they are refered to as "The gold-worked brooches from her robes - she wore them as jewels". David Greene translated them as "the gold-chased brooches fastening her robes". And in even another translation "For the King ripped from her gown the golden brooches that were her ornament". So to answer your question, most references in modern "Oedipus" texts refer to them as brooches. That does not however mean that is what they were. My Greek is a little rusty, however, it is possible that the literary scholars who translated these pieces were not familiar with historical garb and translated the term into the most easily recognizable text. In James Laver's "Costume and Fashion - A Concise History" he states that the chiton and the chlamys were usually held in place by a brooch or pin, by this I believe he means fibulae, on the left shoulder. All the references I can find refer to the fibulae as being feminine in fact the reason the Ionic chiton was the Athenian females main garb after the Aegina disaster (558 BC) is because the Athenian citizens (all being male) imposed the Ionic costume on their women "to punish them for having killed the only survivor of the battle by stabbing him with their fibulae". (20,000 Years of Fashion) Upon further investigation, I found a picture of a gothic fibula in the Boucher book which does indeed look like a gold brooch. Have I cleared up the question or just muddied the waters even more? For those of you who are involved with historical costuming: Costume designers, costumers and the like, Francois Boucher's "20,000 Years of Fashion" is a wealth of information and has pictures to boot. Good luck to all, Kat afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 09:19:22 +1000 From: ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 351, 7/27/95 >From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM >FYI to all on this list: I just picked up a copy of "Dress in Ireland" >by Mairead Dunleavy ($60). It is either still in print or back in print. Could you post the full bibliographic details, including the edition and ISBN number? Thanks very much, Sarah **************************************************************************** ********************************************** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 04:07:01 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: I NEED GARB! Where are you from mundanely? Maybe we could find an experienced garb-maker near you who could spend a day to help you get started. Kathleen (Catriona) >Hello all. I'm a newbie to the SCA (about 3 months now) and I REALLY need >some garb. Although i'm not quite sure of my persona, i plan on being >some sort of jester/fool and/or bard. I've looked thru my library, and >havent found any period jester outfits. A few children's patterns, but >nothing useable. If anyone has and info on fool's outfits, it would be >greatly appreshated (wow i can spell) >Also i am looking for a cloak pattern, or plan. I've found a pattern >that would work, but it takes 6 yards! Most of which went to waste. >Considering the fabric i would like to use is $8+ a yard, i would like to >use as little as possible! any ideas? > >thanx in advance >jojo jann >SCA: Anastasia THE FOOL! > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 04:08:17 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Men In Tights > (forgive me I am uncertian >of the exact date knitted silk hose became common in Europe) Late 1500's. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 10:16:12 EST Subject: Re[2]: Men In Tights I think earlier than the late 1500s. I seem to recall that knit silk stockings were found in the tomb of Eleanor of Toledo who lived in the late 1400s, early 1500s. Her portraits date to the 1st quarter of the 16th century, and I think she died around 1535 or so. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 08:06:57 -0700 From: Allan Terry Subject: Hat book for sale I just finished reviewing another book I already own, so am selling one copy. The book is _Ahead of Fashion: Hats of the 20th Century_, by Dilys E. Blum. It is a catalog for an exhibit at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. It's 48 8 1/2" x 11" pages long. It has 70 color photos of couture and other fancy hats from 1900 to about 1970, plus a series of short essays. The price is $10 including shipping. If interested, please send e-mail to me via aterry@teknowledge.com Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 10:16:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jo Jann Subject: Re: I NEED GARB! I would love to meet people in the area! Major plus if they knew about garb too! i live in Eugene, Oregon =) I just want to take the time (er space) to thanx everyone now for all there help =) THANK YOY THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! -Anastasia THE FOOL! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 13:14:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "B.M. O'Brien" Subject: Re: I NEED GARB! On Fri, 28 Jul 1995, Jo Jann wrote: > I would love to meet people in the area! Major plus if they knew about > garb too! i live in Eugene, Oregon =) > Anastasia, You might try talking to Baroness Marian, she is an extremely sweet person. If not, Do you know Karis Jessica Percy? She is pretty handy with the needle and could probably help you, or else direct you to someone else. Peggy Sue You can tell Karis I said so :-) [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Peggy Sue O'Brien pegisue@u.washington.edu University of Washington Lady Orfhlaith Ingen Bhriain Infectious Diseases, Mailstop SJ-10 Barony of Madrone, An Tir Seattle, WA 98195 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 16:16:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: On hose, tights and knitted stockings This is taken from a paper entitled "The Fantastical Folly of Fashion: The English Stocking Knitting Industry, 1500-1700" written by Joan Thirsk ed. NB. Harte and K.G. Ponting in Textile History and economic History Essayts in Honour of Miss Julia de Lacy Mann. For the edification of the list I shall reproduce some of the comments therein: First review of what the English were wearing prior to knitted hose: "Until the Tudor perod a single garment that combined breeches and stockings covered the legs of menfolk of all classes and was known as 'hose'. The breeches could be more or less elaborate ... with bulky linings ... of a different fabric. The stocking part was made separately and then stitched to the breeches; it was made from material cut on the cross and sewn to shape, giving a seam down the back of the leg. ... If as occaisionally happened the two parts of the garment were not stitched together, they were joined by bands or cross garters; they were then distinguished by name as 'upper stocks' and 'nether stocks'. If working men did not always wear 'hose' like this, they wore instead what we would nowadays call 'tights'--close fitting stocking with pants attached, worn under a tunic. Women's stocking were made in the same way as men's nether stocks, cut and sewn from woven material bought by the yard, and gartered above the knee(1*). The fashion began to change in the first half of the sexteenth century under the influence of Italian, Spanish and French styles...Knitted goods that were attractive and shapely enough to rank as high fashion seem to have been developed in France (especially in Paris) and in Italy (at Florence) during the fifteenth century.(2*) Observing the subsequent vogue for knitted stockings in England, the historians of costume have maintained that in this country 'knitting did not become established until the sixteenth century'.(3*) THIS IS SCARCELY CREDIBLE. The chain mail of medieval armour is, in fact, a knitted garter stitch. Knitted caps are mentioned as a commonplace article of clothing in a stature of 1488, when their price was fixed as 2s 8d(4*) Even though no medieval archaeological sites have yet yielded knitting needles or fragment of knitted fabric, it is difficult to believe that the art of knitting was unknown until the sixteenth, or at best, the fifteenth century." Book goes on to conclude it as a utilitarian peasant craft. "In the early sixteenth century silk knitted stockings were high fashion in court circles in Spain. This fashion was known at the English court, but could hardly as yet be imitated. A pair of Spanish silk stockings was a qrecious acquisition for Englishmen... Henry VIII always wore cloth hose made from 'ell broad taffety' except when 'by great chance there came a pair of Spanish silk stockings from Spain.' Edward VI became a prowd owner of a pair of long Spanish silk stockings, presented to him by Sir Thomas Gresham...estimates of value from 1567-68 were 8 pounds a pair!!! ...By Elizabeths reign, however, ...could be coveted by lesser mortals. In the two decades following 1560, foreign or English-made silk stockings became more commoon, and by 1582, when the new Book of Rates was issued, Spanish silk stockings...26s 8d. ...Meanwhile, stockings knitted from wool (remember me, the wool person?) were beginning to share some of the favour originally bestowed on knitted silk..." ...Italians created worsted wool stockings that were copied (1564) and soon became common. Endnotes are my own notation. 1*Cunnington and Cunnington Handbook of English Costume Sixteenth Century, author says that this needs closer examination, don't take them as gospel 2*W. vaughan, The Golden Grove (1600) 3*see Cunnington 4*M. Hartley and J. Ingilby, The Old Hand-knitters of Dales (1969 ed.) So the Italians and Spanish probably had this in the fourteen hundreds, but as it is not my area or time I leave that to others. They weren't common in England until WELL into Elizabeth's reign. And Henry VIII almost always wore cloth hose. Also, as soon as silk knitting appears in England, wool follows almost immedieately and is as popular. Stockings fit better, were easier to wash, and allowed much greater variation in color and pattern. Yours in scholarly pursuit of the truth, Teresa ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Sewing Software Programs; Options For Men? Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:39:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Alice Morgan" Apologies to those people that see this twice (h_costume and f_costume) Special thanks to Joan Mather for pointing me in the direction of Patternmaker Software: (206) 644-8161, or (310) 393-8467 I called and talked to their sales rep today. Patternmaker is primary a special purpose CAD program targeted at the sewing audience. I asked about men's patterns and unusual fitting problems. The general response is that since it is drafting program, you are free to draft any type patterns you want, including furniture covers, etc. In that sense you are not limited to women's only clothes, but you may have to draft from either the provided building blocks or from scratch. For problem fit areas on a particular individual, your best bet is to work out some basic pattern blocks, and make samples to test fit then store and use those pattern blocks as starting points for other garments. Home version is $129 (or was it $169), profession version is $999 (and has just been released, so expect some bugs, or an update) I was also curious about operating system and hadware requirements: They have versions available for DOS and MS/windows only. There have been requests for a Mac version and I tossed in a request for UNIX version, but don't hold your breath, the dos box is seen as least common denomitor consumer grade computer, and thus is the primary platform the software will be offered on (sigh). Recomended hardware: 486/50 and above for windows 386/16 and above for dos for comparable hardware, the dos version will run faster (10x)? For driver support, the dos version includes drivers, while the windows version uses the windows drivers. Salesman's opinion: "the dos drivers are better written then the drivers in windows, but you are limited to the drivers provided in the dos version" Plotters and various printers supported, I did not try to go into details for an exhaustive list. For printers using paper smaller then the pattern piece, it will print tiles which you then place together to form the pattern. The dos version does support at least one brand of digitzing pad, call for details if you are interested. The dos version only knows how to use the first 640k of memory. Unclear if programs like hi-mem will eliminate that problem. The Dos version does support grading, while the windows version does not. The installation set is one floppy so disk usage by the software should not be excessive. The software was designed by people familiar with Autocaad, so if you know Autocad, the learning curve should be fairly short. Commands are available via menu's, icons, and command line. Both of the following comparisons are salesmans perspective, since I've only briefly experimented with the fittingly sew demo and not at all with Patternmaker or Autocad. Comparison to Autocad: Specialized program, lower cost, easier to use for intended focus and some features not available or extremely dificult to achieve via autocad (grading) Comparision to Fittingly Sew Easier to draw complex shapes. In some ways comparible, but supposedly better features. For grading you specify grading points/rules, Ie, point of shoulder should move, underarm, etc. Not clear on details beyond that. The Dos home version has grading, while for Windows, you have to go to the professional version to get grading. The other main difference between home and pro version is the marker layout feature, where you can figure best fits for cutting out the pattern, including a "bumper" feature. The marker program is probably limited to retangles (I asked about fitting to an ilregular shape like a leather hide, and got the "hmm interesting, never thought about that before" response).In the conversation we agreed that the labor of tracing the shape of each hide would probably negate any saving from getting a best fitt, besides leather is not a uniform material, you usually want to cut certain pieces from certain locations on the hide. Also asked about import/export of files from autocad or other drafting programs. While they can currently do that in house, it it not part of the program yet, since they are concerned with quality, and potential for a draawing to get corrupted. It will probably be part of the Pro version in a future release. They do not have a demo available but do have an unconditional refund policy. They also have plans to have a web page, within a month or two. I've also reqeusted some written literature. They have email now: patternmaker.com is the site name. For me personally, I was not swayed too much one way or another by the Fittingly Sew demo. I have used "generic cadd" by autodesk for some drafting, and am tempted to try Patternmaker, primarly for the grading ability and to print actual size (most cad programs prefer to "fit" the drawing to the paper). I'm looking for some kind of setup to be able to store patterns electronically rather than in paper (and generate a paper pattern when needed). I'll be focusing on patterns for men, women, and specialized (leather, garment and harness gear), so strong drafting abilities are a plus for me. I'm dreaming of a program that can put the garment together and model it on a figure in 3d electronically, but that does not seem available (at least in my price range). Mentioned that, and in their opinion, the biggest stumbling block is a user interface to construct the garments, "imagine Gumby or someone with mittens on trying to put together a garment". Modeling fabric on a figure is possible now, but putting the garment together and on the figure is more dificult. Alice Morgan ------------------------------ End of Volume 354 -----------------------