From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 18:36:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 355, 7/31/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 355, July 31, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Finding SCA garb in Oregon Pins and safety pin history Boning question Wanted: Wishes for 16th C costume book Portland, Maine must-sees Pattern drafting books recommended History of Trowsers Autodesk pattern drafting program advice On Lucets Sleeves and shoulders Mail is not knitting Shakespeare and hose ISO: Costumer in Tennessee ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mara Kaehn <39000J5E@kerner.com> Subject: RE: I NEED GARB! Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 15:52:00 PDT Well met, Anastasia! If you desire contact with other costumers and cool folk in Eugene, Amy Carpenter would be another contact person - she is Chatelaine of the local SCA group near campus (or at least she was when I as there,). If you would send to me your personal e-mail address, I know her personal e-mail address and would be willing to send it to you privately. Anon, P.S> Tell her Mara said "mrrrow", Mara Kaehn mara@Kerner.com ______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 16:01:06 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 353, 7/28/95 Re: pins. Someone was using fibulae for the singular. It's fibula(just like the leg bone) fibulae is plural feminine. these were not "safety pins" because the sharp point was still exposed, sort of like the wires for pierced ears, but the shape and the concept were the same. Since "pin" is a synonym for both fibula and brooch, I don't think there is a problem imagingin Oedipus blinded himself with his mother's straight fibulae. As someone else pointed out, the Greek women held their garments together and everybody held their cloaks on with "pins", and they were "jewelry" to one extent or another. (guess they didn't have ducttape) Certainly a queen would have elaborate brooches/pins/fibulae. I have seen bronze fibulae from the same burial as straight "pins" (we're talking several inches in lenghth here) at least 500 BC, middle east. To bring up another problem, wasn't there a cloak pin, where the straight pin went thru' a circle or something, kind of like a hair ornament or a buckle?? I'm thinking Celtic or Gaulish, but it's not my area. Pointless didacticism on a Fri. afternoon... Question to the boning people: just wondering why you don't use modern boning as used for bustiers and strapless gowns, etc. Does it not work? Does it somehow not look authentic? (after reading all those postings on corsets, boniing, bodices, ad infinitum, I need to know!) Can anyone recommend a *book* on sewing garment leather. i don't want to make armor or shoes or motorcyle pants, just some medium wt. pigskin wants to be changed from culottes to a vest. rumination...doesn't the SCA publish some kind of handbook for neophytes, so they don't keep asking the same questions over and over?? Don't flame me SCA people, you should help your newbies (and I have helped make SCA costumes, so there.) That's enough to thnk about over the weekend. bye! Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ From: Tudorldy@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:45:33 -0400 Subject: What do you wish you knew? Greetings, learned friends. I am in the midst of writing a text for beginning late period (in this case, 1500s/early 1600s) clothiers. It is very much a beginner's book, aimed at demystifying Tudor and early Jacobean clothing for people with little background. It is a professionally illustrated text, although I do not offer patterns (I want to stay away from that tar baby). My question to those assembled here, even if your interests do not fall in this period, is -- what do you wish someone had explained to you when you started out making period clothing? I appreciate your input! I can't guarantee I'll use your suggestions, but any ideas are very welcome indeed. My guess is that this might be a bit arcane to post the replies to the list, so please e-mail me -- unless people want to see the replies? Again, many thanks, Yours in Service, Elizabeth Blackdane (Meagn E. Maguire) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 20:08:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: Fabric Stops Peggy: Whimper, whimper, whimper, my husband and I are from Portland and through some cruel twist of fate have found ourselves stuck in Gainesville, FL. (Actually, we are working on our masters and will be able to leave in 2 years). Portland is gorgeous any time of the year but especially in the fall. Tell your friend to plan on taking a drive up Route 1, she will see some of the more beautiful aspects of the state. First off, tell your friend she needs to get a copy of Yankee Magazine for the month she will be there. It is a pretty common magazine in New England but I have found it difficult to find down here. Check with a nice bookstore, I.E. Barnes and Nobles or one of the like, don't try to find it at Waldenbooks. Yankee will have listing of all the fairs and festivals that will be going on when your friend attends and is an all around sweet magazine. One of the most beautiful parts of Portland is the Old Port down by the harbor. It is full of quaint shops, antique stores and tasty restaurants. Your friend should try the Seaman's club which has the most fabulous clam chowder I have ever had. Down in the Old Port is the Regency Hotel, an armory that was refurbished into a lovely vintage hotel. My husband and I were married in their front room. The hotel is a little expensive, however, it makes a nice break from notell motells. Fabric stores in Portland are for the most part your generic Joann's and the like. There are some lovely shops in the Old Port but for the most part I always found them prohibitably expensive. The surrounding area is lovely and it would be well worth your friends time if she spent a little time see the country side. Portland is just a short hop down 295 to Falmouth and Freeport, the home of the retail store for L.L. Beans, always worth the trip. Freeport is also home to many outlet stores and one should take the time to explore it in depth. South of Portland is Kennebunk and Kennebunkport, home of our non-tax paying ex-president. Kennebunkport is also home to many wonderful shops and restaurants and is worth the trip. While your friend is in Kennebunkport, she should stop and see the Wedding Cake House, a local home that is decorated like a wedding cake, always amusing to see. There is so much more to tell and see. Tell your friend she should contact the Maine bureau of tourism for more information. I hope this helps. If I can be of more assistance, please let me know. Kat Katherine L. Rodman Gainesville, FL afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu "Historical accuracy and costume design do not neccessarily go hand in hand" John Conklin On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Peggy Quarterman wrote: > Hello. My office mate is planning a trip to Portland, Maine and will be > traveling by car. Could anyone give her tips on "good" fabric stores, > museums to visit, places to eat, and most especially eaterys in Portland, > etc. to hit on her way up or back? She will be traveling from Roanoke, > Virginia up the coast. Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > *********************** > Peggy Quarterman > College of Forestry and Wildlife Resources > pquarter@vt.edu (eudora system) > brettieq@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu (internet) > 703-231-5481 > > Yesterday is the past, tomorrow is the future, but today is a gift...that's > why it is called the present. -- unknown > *********************** > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 20:15:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: Patterns For all of you who are interested in creating your own patterns, I have two excellent books on basic pattern making that may be of assistance Designing Apparel Through the Flat Pattern Kopp, Rolfo, Zelin, and Gross Fairchild Fashion and Merchandising Group, New York - Publishers ISBN 87005-737-5 How to Draft Basic Patterns Same group as above ISBN 87005-747-2 Both of these book are excellent and are not solely structured around period garments. They are excellent additions to anyones collection. As a designer and costumer, I could not live without them. Kat Katherine L. Rodman Gainesville, FL afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu "Historical accuracy and costume design do not neccessarily go hand in hand" John Conklin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 22:11:14 CDT From: "Mather, Joan" Subject: Coleridge's 'trowsers' michaels@SciFac.usyd.edu.au wondered if Coleridge wearing 'trowsers' in 1794 was some form of a sartorial or democratic statement... Alison Lurie wrote in _The Language of Clothes_: "In the late 18th century, clothes were-and for a long time had been- extremely formal, stiff and elaborate.... Although a shift to simpler and more childlike styles took place at the time of the American and French Revolutions, it was not the result of these upheavals, but rather another manifestation of widespread political, social and cultural change. Even before 1776 the Romantic movement, with it's emphasis on the simple and natural, had begun to be reflected in costume.... In France extravagance and overdecoration continued up to the eve of the Revolution, when the Third Estate abolished class distinctions in dress and terrified aristocrats gave up their hoops and jewels." I also have a vague memory from a History of Costume class that the Revolutionaries were known as "Sans Coulottes" because they wore long pants rather than the knee breeches of the aristocracy. So yes, I think Coleridge probably was making a 'democratic statement,' as well as being in the forefront of fashion movement. Joan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 20:38:55 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: I NEED GARB! :I would love to meet people in the area! Major plus if they knew about :garb too! i live in Eugene, Oregon =) Greetings. You live where there are lots of artsy costumer types. Laura Minnick is one in Eugene. She does commission work. Marion Harris (who has email with the same efn.org that you have, but I can't find her full address) is someone else. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to pass this on to the Steps (a group of email people who are SCA). Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 95 16:37:21 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Pattern drafting programs I don't know if I mentioned this, but AutoCAD and the pattern making add-ons from other companies are all expensive, around $1,000 give or take a couple hundred. _But_ Autodesk and the pattern software companies I talked to in person (as opposed to their voice mail) offer substantial discounts--about 50%--to students (and probably faculty and staff). For mail order they usually want a photocopy of the student's ID. AutoCAD at least can also be ordered through university bookstores at the same discount. One company I asked about student discounts said yes, they have a substantial discount, then asked if I am a student. I said "No, but I know one who can order for me." They said, "Sure, go ahead, everybody does that!" Re support: I haven't completely worked out this angle yet, but have heard that Autodesk at least downloads its bug fixes onto Compuserve where anyone can access them. I don't know if PC Patternmaker is offered at a discount, but it's worth asking. All these companies are targeting universities heavily. Not only can they make multiple sales, the garment industry uses similar programs and universities want to train students in their use. The garment industry programs mentioned to me were Gerber and Microdynamics. I was told these cost around $100,000. Of course the salesperson wanted me to feel I was getting a bargain for their PC program at around $1,000 (before the student discount). But still I'm curious about what these programs offer that the PC programs don't, and whether it's 100 times better. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 15:59:11 +0800 From: writan@vianet.net.au (Writan Consulting) Subject: Re: needlework/renaissance question (webpage) > >Another possibility on counted thread embroidery for the period: > > >On Compuserve, in the LIVHIST forum, there are about a dozen GIF files > >of charts done by Timothy J. Mitchell of German 14th and 15th century > >pieces in the Victoria & Albert museum. > > I was wondering if you could please give me the hppt address for these files > as I would very much like to view them > Good idea! I quickly webbed up such a page, which can be found at http://ux1.cso.uiuc.edu/~jcole/medembro.html (So far as I know they were not previously to be found on WWW. To my knowledge Compuserve's file areas are inaccessible to WWW, as they are one of the main reasons a person might pay money to access Compuserve.) Have fun! Joan Cole ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:47:30 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: Lucet Lucet cord is a square cord that is knotted on a lucet. A lucet is a hand sized wooden (though I suppose it could be made of anything stronge to take the process) instrument that is shaped like a lyre or an "angelic harp". You can make lucet cord using any begining type of thread or yarn I've even done it with sutach braid. The insterment I was giving prices for was a lucet. Katrinn Kathy B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:01:00 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: Sleeves and Shoulders St Catherine's sleeves must have been held up by God; does that constitute a 'cheat'? ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Mon, 31 Jul 95 10:04:32 EST Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew? For the purposes of 16th century clothing, I think one of the most important things I ever learned is that the front of the bodices are CURVED upward, and not straight across. They fit better that way and help to hold your boobs in, even with a corset. Also, corsets are not made to deprive you of oxygen, but to provide support and help fit the body to the shape of the clothes. Do NOT cut them too tight. Wear a petticoat OVER the hoop if you use a hoop, so the spokes of the darn thing don't show through. Always cover your head if you are over about 15 or 16. Do not dress from the neck down or the ankles up. These are some of Auntie Alyson's rules of garb-making and wearing. Hope they help. I'm sure you will get feedback from other on this topic. Kathleen (Alyson of Islay, SCA) kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: AWILSON.abrscbr@anca.erin.gov.au (AWILSON) Subject: Re: On hose, tights and knitted Date: Mon, 31 Jul 95 11:24 Theresa gave long quote from - "The Fantastical Folly of Fashion: The English Stocking Knitting Industry, 1500-1700" which I will not repeat. But if an article tells you that "The chain mail of medieval armour is, in fact, a knitted garter stitch" I think you need to take every thing else it says with a very large pinch of salt. Annette Wilson Email: awilson.abrscbr@anca.erin.gov.au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:39:09 GMT From: paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Men In Tights In message <9507270341.AA14519@badger.ac.BrockU.CA> Kathleen Leggat writes: > > They didn't have tights, they had hose. They were usually cut and > sewn to the shape of the leg, and held on by garters to the waistband, (if > high) and/or gartered at the knee. In "Twelveth Night", Maria (the lady Olivia's housekeeper) makes a pun about that to Feste, the clown: Maria: You are resolute, then? Feste: Not so, neither; but I am resolved on two points. Maria: That if one should break, the other will hold; or, if both break, your gaskins fall. > There were a variety of ways of gartering, as the fashions came and went. > (Shakespeare speaks scathingly of cross-gartering in one of his plays... > the basic concept was that it was a silly, fopish affectation) Malvolio has been deceived by a counterfeited note into wearing yellow hose, even though his mistress is still in mourning for her dead brother and, even more ludicrously, into wearing cross-garters... Olivia: Smilest thou? I sent for thee upon a sad occasion. Malvolio: Sad, lady? I could be sad, this does make some obstruction in the blood, this cross-gartering, but what of that? If it please the eye of one, it is with me as the very sonnet is, `Please one, and please all.' Paul C. Dickie ------------------------------ From: SyRilla@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 12:59:24 -0400 Subject: Find costumers in Tn Hello everyone. This may be inappropriate to ask, but I would like to contact people (not just in SCA) that make costumes. I live near Nashville, Tn. If you are or know someone that does please e-mail me. Thank you. Kimberly D. Stockton Syrilla@aol.com " Who said that I dress funny?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 13:54:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: On hose, tights and knitted > Theresa gave long quote from - "The Fantastical Folly of Fashion: > The English Stocking Knitting Industry, 1500-1700" which I will not > repeat.> But if an article tells you that "The chain mail of medieval armour is, > in fact, a knitted > garter stitch" > I think you need to take every thing else it says with a very large pinch > of salt. Ms. Wilson, and another, were kind enought to point out this rather bizarre quote from the stocking knitting article regarding medieval English armor qua mail as being manufactured like unto a type of knitted garter stitch. I was rather confused by the sentence, although the article is certainly sound and well-researched on its subject--the English knitted stocking industry and its textile references. So I asked a couple of people whom I deem know more of historical english mail than I do. Knitting is a somewhat common analogue to mail production as it appears to have a "knitted pattern" when looked-at lying flat. What is known of authentic medieval mail production is that (for England, generally) rings were cut from a coil of metal and, formed a helical ring with the ends free, but when wedged through a tapered hole it allowed the ends to overlap, which were then flattened and a hole punched through where a wedge or wire was pierced and "riveted." The tapered hole tool has been found in some archaeological digs, but the actual method of joining the rings together to form the mail is not known. (For really interested parties there is "butted mail" which is actually just mail with non-overlapping ends that were not used in Europe, but the Indians and Persians used it, there were welded rings, which is generally anachronistic of the medieval period, in which each ring is individually welded shut, there is mail where they stamped the rings out of flat sheet metal for the Russians to inscribe each ring [joined I don't know how] and a mix of techniques that rarely crop up in England/France like 3 riveted rings to one sheet metal ring, etc.) None of these should be considered typical of medieval England. Anyway, the analogy of knitting appears to be thus: The assembly of the rings which go into mail constitute a repeated systemized handwork pattern, continual through the "fabric" of the mail. This repeated systemized pattern resembles a knitted pattern regarding how the rings were laid together (4 in one, that is four rings are always connected to one ring) which tend to twist and join on themselves in a systemized manner. One row of rings may be "clockwise" the second "counterclockwise" etc. The terminology refers only to the likeness of the finished pattern of the joined rings, and can secondarily be used to reference the actual manufacture of the joining of the rings into a "fabric" because it is following a pattern similar to knitting, because it is systematized handwork, and because there is not specific information regarding the actual manufacture (for medieval english mail) to gainsay it. The author should not have used the term chain mail. Mail is only mail, riveted, welded, butted, chain are only adjectival terms associated with it, but it seems to be a VERY common error. Riveted, welded and butted only refer to the end of the manufacture process to the treatment of the closings for the individual rings, and is not indicative of the system to construct the "fabric" of the garment. Thank you Aaron Toman and Paul Gunderson for their patient and historical explanation (over the phone!) to try and recreate the construction of mail. Thank you, for being patient enough to get this far with my doubtless inadequate (but I feel historically accuarate-sans references) explanation of an obviously misleading line in the article I quoted for your edification. Your servant, Teresa> ------------------------------ End of Volume 355 -----------------------