From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 19:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 356, 8/2/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 356, August 2, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: ISO: Sources for Herjolfsnes garments Knitting and mail What you wish you knew when you started costuming ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gaelscot@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:55:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Herjolfsnes garments Hello! Does anyone know a source (or more than one source) for ALL of the garments found in the Herjolfsnes gravesite? (A 1921 discovery in Greenland, which yielded many preserved pieces of medieval clothing.) I have a few diagrams from different books, but nothing comprehensive. By-the-by, can anyone make anything of this description of the Herjofsnes clothes from Carl Kohler's "History of Costume": "...A few female garments have all round the waist, between breast and hips, very narrow perpendicular pleats, 3mm wide and 26 cm. long. This fashion is exactly like that prevailing at that time in the rest of Europe, if we are to judge from the works of art that have come down to us. A sort of waistcoat (bolero) may have been worn with the dress." Huh???? I gather that Kohler is not the best source, but in this case he was looking at actual garments, so I thought there might be something to it. What kind of pleats? What works of art? What prevailing fashions? I would appreciate any light on this subject! Thanks in advance-- Gail Finke ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Mon, 31 Jul 95 16:15:52 EST Subject: Re[2]: On hose, tights and knitted The knitted garter stitch quotation about chain mail might also be a reference to the method of making theatrical or movie "chain mail" -- Knitted grey wool or wool spray painted silver. For example, check out Kenneth Branagh's version of "Henry V". Brian Blessed is wearing a real mail coif; the rest of the cast are wearing knitted coifs. Most medieval films and plays have the cast wearing the knitted stuff. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:44:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: On the knitted mail To all and sundry, Regarding the article on the knitted english stockings, and the follow-up on analogies of mail to knitting. I should just like to state that I am not arguing with any who disagree with the article. On reading again, it does say armor was ... knitting reference, and not armor was like...knitting reference, which was my interpretation, that the authoress (Ph.D. from Oxford on economics) may well know nothing or mail, and so the line may well be a throwaway. She does document knitted caps in fifteenth century and everything else quite succinctly, however, so I see little to make me doubt the efficacy of her knowledge and research on the subject article of knitted stockings. Please take the article's information on knitted stockings as valid, and by all means don't hold the probably erroneous reference to knitted mail against her as it was not an important line for the article. Please do check it out and read it if possible. A final possiblity, if there are any knitters out there, especially hand-knitters, if you could draw a sample of the mentioned stitch of the garter stitch, I could compare it to the linking structure of actual mail, and see if there is that similarity. Thank you all for your time and patience in my possible errors, and in the ever present danger of errors in researching. Cordially, Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 13:53:27 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew The two main types of information which would have prevented many errors for me when I was beginning costuming would be the importance of correct underpinnings & how to make them & a lot of textile information, including what currently available types of fabrics make the best subtitute for the period fabrics. Associated information on period colours & trims would be nice also. Another type of information that is sometimes difficult for beginners to find is how to make the headgear to go with the gowns. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:54:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Re[2]: On hose, tights and knitted Ms. Wilson, Yes, of course this is a possibility, and one I did not think of. I do not know, however, how "hollywood" the English experience with cheating costuming is. The lady is a Ph.D. at Oxford an an economic college, and I believe her field is much closer to knitting than mail, so you are correct in observing that she probably is quite ignorant of mail and the consturction. She may have only worked from photos, and real mail looks knitted in photos, and doubly so in period representations. However, do try and track down the article, I can give you the full reference, her points that are central to the article seem solid to me and the mail thing is just in a throwaway line. Ever your servant, Teresa > The knitted garter stitch quotation about chain mail might also be a reference > to the method of making theatrical or movie "chain mail" -- Knitted grey wool > or wool spray painted silver. For example, check out Kenneth Branagh's version > of "Henry V". Brian Blessed is wearing a real mail coif; the rest of the cast > are wearing knitted coifs. Most medieval films and plays have the cast wearing > the knitted stuff. > > Kathleen > kathleen@anstec.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:07:03 -0700 From: jastown@halcyon.com (Jas. Townsend & Son, Inc. ) Subject: I wish I knew. . . When I started, about 15 years ago, I knew I needed a corset! I tried all kinds of weird stuff to stiffen my bodices (including wire hangers straightened out) before I finally found a corset kit, which was the wrong period but allowed me to work from and make a proper one. Now it's so easy - there are patterns, boning of all sorts, (sigh). In fact, some of us have talked about how much easier to get started now. Beginners don't have to work near as hard to find information and materials. And of course, resources like this list have helped immensely. I try hard not to bludgeon beginners with goals of perfection. Let them fudge! They will see the difference soon enough and will want to do it better on their own. There are two subjects I emphasize though: 1. Period underpinnings or a reasonable facsimily (sp!). It's too important to the look of the period to ignore. 2. Accessories make you look "real" and can go a long way to distract attention away from various "fudgeries" in your costume. Feeling kind of old today, (well, it IS my birthday) Theta@jastown ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:24:41 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 355, 7/31/95 To Elizabeth writing a book: You might want to explain the real basics, that is, assume almost no knowledge on the part of your reader. We have all been too much influenced by Hollywood costume pics. In my own researches, it was so wonderful to find a book which had actual garments laid out flat with diagrams (not patterns) and measurements. Started with underwear and worked outwards. Your area is not my area, but the principles are the same, I think. I realize you may not have access to actual garments (!) but it can be so confusing trying to figure out which garment goes on top of which. E.g. when I first saw Snow White, I didn't realize that those little red diamonds on her puffy sleeves were not applied, but pulled through slashes. This may seem elementery to you, but may not be obvious from an illustration. I remember b eing quite surprised to learn that all those filmy white bits in Italian Ren. portraits were actually their underwear (in a manner of speaking) showing thru'! Hope this helps, Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 09:08:46 +1000 From: ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 355, 7/31/95 >From: Tudorldy@aol.com >My question to those assembled here, even if your interests do not fall >in this period, is -- what do you wish someone had explained to you when >you started out making period clothing? It sounds very basic, but I wish someone had explained to me the need to take measurements and fit the garment to me. My first costume was the V-necked gown from Holkeboer's book. It said it was one eighth to scale, so I multiplied all the dimensions by eight and made it up and it fitted. (It was not a particularly fitted garment, and the pattern was modelled on a basic size 12, which I was.) Then I tried doing the same thing with an Elizabethan dress from Jean Hunnisett's book, multiplying by 12. It didn't work. Fortunately, a kind soul took me in hand at that point and showed me how to measure and fit, and saved the second costume from being my last. Sarah **************************************************************************** ********************************************** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 20:54:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Herjolfsnes garments > Does anyone know a source (or more than one source) for ALL of the garments > found in the Herjolfsnes gravesite? (A 1921 discovery in Greenland, which > yielded many preserved pieces of medieval clothing.) I have a few diagrams > from different books, but nothing comprehensive. Funny you should mention this, because I currently have the book you want checked out of the U.C. Berkeley library and sitting on the desk in front of me. It is: "Meddelelser om Gro/nland" Vol. 67. Kobenhavn: C.A. Reitzel Boghandel, 1924. In particular, part no. 1 "Buried Norsemen at Herjolfsnes" by Dr. Poul No"rlund This is part of a very extensive series on Greenland archaeology, anthropology, geology, etc. during the Middle Ages. Make sure you get the right volume. It contains photographs of many of the garments and flat diagrams (showing the cut!) of everything that wasn't too fragmentary to interpret. > By-the-by, can anyone make anything of this description of the Herjofsnes > clothes from Carl Kohler's "History of Costume": > > "...A few female garments have all round the waist, between breast and hips, > very narrow perpendicular pleats, 3mm wide and 26 cm. long. This fashion is > exactly like that prevailing at that time in the rest of Europe, if we are to > judge from the works of art that have come down to us. A sort of waistcoat > (bolero) may have been worn with the dress." > > Huh???? I gather that Kohler is not the best source, but in this case he was > looking at actual garments, so I thought there might be something to it. What > kind of pleats? What works of art? What prevailing fashions? The abovementioned report shows a photograph of one of the pieces in question and a detailed drawing of the other. The latter is the top section (from about the waist up -- the garment is damaged) of a dress fairly similar to the others from the site in cut, except that the front neckline descends in a deep "v" from the shoulders. But the fabric has been sewn in narrow pleats from slightly above the bust line to approximately the waist line. For most of this, the upper edge of the pleated section is the armscye, although there is a narrow section in the front where the pleats give out simply to flat fabric. To quote the report "The pleats are fluted and sown down singly with front stitches as may be seen plainly on the wrong side." The pleats are spaced very closely -- about 5 mm wide. I have no idea exactly what a "front stitch" might be. The drawing would make the most sense if the pleats were sewn down to a lining, but there is no specific mention of a lining in the text. The archaeological report relates this to 15th century styles seen in portraits where relatively small, highly-regular pleats or folds are seen beginning about midway between the shoulder and the bust line and falling into less regular folds below the waist. (We had an extensive discussion on the possible construction of this effect several months ago on this list. I hadn't seen this article yet at that point or I would have mentioned it.) Heather Rose Jones (and if anyone recalls the book from Berkeley before I'm done with it ....) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 95 23:39:33 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew? :> From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM :> :> Always cover your head if you are over about 15 or 16. Do not dress from the :> neck down or the ankles up. :> Please explain the not neck down or ankles up? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 01:56:04 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew? The other Kathleen wrote: >For the purposes of 16th century clothing, I think one of the most important >things I ever learned is that the front of the bodices are CURVED upward, and >not straight across. They fit better that way and help to hold your boobs in, >even with a corset. > My research shows that the curved bodice was only during the Tudor period, and not in every case. I haven't found any evidence of curved Elizabethan bodices. If you would like my sources for this, feel free to mail me at my own email number or here on the list. (a long and boring list...even from just one collection of portraits!) As for what I would like to see in a 16th century costuming book: backs of gowns, colours and fabrics, and proper under-dressing. For example, every source I have found has suggested that a bumroll was worn instead of a Spanish farthingale (for middle class), for support under a French farthingale, and alone in the early 17th century--never in combination with a Spanish farthingale, although I have seen it worn that way. During a lecture by Janet Arnold, she pointed out the gauzy fabric worn over the blackworked sleeves...fascinating! I hadn't notice before, none of my research had pointed it out, but since I had it pointed out to me, I don't know how I missed it in portraits! That's another thing...primary source materials. I figure the only good source is a primary source (okay, call me a snob!). For instance, the article commonly referred to as a partlet, which fills in a Tudor bodice and results in a standing collar...in one photo of a portrait, (Mary I, 1550-5 by H. Eworth from A Visual History of Costume: The Sixteenth Century by Jane Ashelford, plate 49, page 58) by really scrutinizing the photo, I noticed that the edges extended slightly over the shoulders of the gown. I considered this information along with reports of primary written lists of garments which cited "vests" among the woman's wardrobe (can't quote the source right now, as I don't own that book). I now have a theory that the "partlet" is really a sideless vest, donned before the bodice. (hey, Katrinn...this is what I was talking about! I finally got off my ever-increasing butt and got the source! ) What do you all think? So...primary source illustrations of various points would be great. For example, showing the full portrait, then blowing up certain details as you talk about them. Also cutting information, such as the fact that skirts often used the fabric salvage for the hemline, stuffing, etc. And, of course, accessories. I have always used Accessories of Dress by (I think) Lester and Morris. It features information about accessories that can't be found in the usual sources. Is this as good a source as I think it is? (It does use some primary source photos...) Does anyone know any others? Well, that's enough controversy for one night! :) Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 16:52:29 +0000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Neck down, ankles up (sounds like a fairly impossible contortion to me) Simply stated, do not forget shoes and head - similar to an unnamed lady of my acquaintance who walked off to a formal dinner wearing a beautiful black velvet gown, silk stockings and sneakers (Reeboks) - Sort of forgot to check in the mirror. Oh - and my hat was on back to front, too - woops, there goes anonymity :-) Gillian ------------------------------ From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 08:43:00 BST Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 355, 7/31/95 >I am in the midst of writing a text for beginning late period > -- what do you wish someone had explained to you when >you started out making period clothing? A while back I wrote an introductory set of leaflets for a Viking re-enactment group on how to make 10th century clothing. Many members (particularly the men) had never sewn in their lives & needed elementary sewing instructions, how to thread a needle, how to start off, how to make the stitches, how to finish. I was asked for this section & I wrote it although I felt it was so basic that it looked patronising to me. However I have since had a fair few men come & thank me for including that section, saying it was that part that allowed them to start making their own clothing: they didn't know a thing about sewing & didn't want to ask. (Seems that some of the big butch blokes you wouldn't think were scared of anything were worried about being seen taking beginners sewing books out of the library!) To give you an idea of how basic the instructions needed to be: One chap came along to a sewing session & didn't know where to start, we gave him a needle & thread with instructions to put the thread through the eye of the needle. The needle was rather oversized as we thought that would make it easier for him. Half an hour later he returned in triumph asking what to do next, "make a knot in the thread" we told him. Naturally he knotted the thread around the eye of the needle! (well it makes sense if you've just spent half an hour threading it, you don't want the thread to come out again). He persisted & shortly was as good with a needle & thread as those of us who had been sewing for years, but the lack of the most basic instructions had been keeping him from learning for ages. For those who didn't need an elemntary sewing lesson I tried to make the section more interesting by illustrating sewing stitches used in the 10th century along with a note of where they had been found. Jennifer ------------------------------ From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 10:19:24 BST Subject: knitted mail Foloowing on fromn the discussion of why mail might be referred to as knitted Knitting does not necessarily have to refer to knitting with two needles & yarn. One of the meanings given in my dictionary is: "to unite or grow together," and gives as an example: " the broken bones had knit well;" The dictionary also gives "compact bodily structure" with the example "a well knit frame" This all derives from the old English cnyttan or cnotta a knot. So the knitted mail, rather than resembling modern knitting with yarn could just be called knitted because it's made of lots of bits joined together? Jennifer ------------------------------ End of Volume 356 -----------------------