From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 19:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 357, 8/2/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 357, August 2, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Cloak pins Knitting and mail What you wished you knew when you started costuming Sources for Herjolfsnes garments Kohler reminder Paper for patternmaking Drawings of bodies vs drawings of clothes (Cranach) Shoulder, sleeves, and posture ISO: Info on 12th C men's clothing Found: 18th C "Clothing for the Poor" pamphlet Garment collection in Austin, TX Question and answer: What's a codpiece? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 10:05:06 BST From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 355, 7/31/95 > east. To bring up another problem, wasn't there a cloak pin, where the > straight pin went thru' a circle or something, kind of like a hair > ornament or a buckle?? I'm thinking Celtic or Gaulish, but it's not my > area. Penannular - i.e. almost a circle. Think of it as a letter C, though the gap is a smaller proportion of the circle. The pin is a bit wider than the diameter of the circle and attached at one end in such a way that it can slide round. When aligned C-, the other end goes through the gap, you pass it through your cloak or whatever, then turn the circle, hooking the gap under the end, so it looks a bit like a cent sign. -------------- > Knitting is a somewhat common analogue to mail production as it appears > to have a "knitted pattern" when looked-at lying flat. While this makes more sense than the original quote, mail is made of discrete links, and knitting is continuous. Anyone arguing that because mail looked like knitting, knitting must have been known at the time (which is what it looked like your source was claiming) is on very shaky ground. > known. (For really interested parties there is "butted mail" which is > actually just mail with non-overlapping ends that were not used in > Europe, but the Indians and Persians used it, Most modern mail used in costuming is of this sort (ignoring stuff that is knitted from string and spray painted silver). It's nice to know there is some historical precedent (though I doubt the Indians and Persians used spring steel washers or fencing wire). ------------------------------ From: Betsy Perry Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew? Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 06:33:14 -0500 (EST) > Please explain the not neck down or ankles up? Hair counts. Shoes count. I would say that you can get away with cheating on shoes (if you're female or in long robes) a lot better than cheating with hair. When I joined the Society and began researching a persona, number one on my agenda was picking a period in which I could decently show my hair. That's how I wound up with the Italian Renaissance; even there, I was careful to braid and ornament my hair, then cover with a veil. SCA 101 should probably be the Ten Bad Examples everybody thinks are really medieval, but aren't. The ice-cream-cone hennin worn over long, flowing hair, for instance. The houppelande with the scooped neckline. The Elizabethan manchet sleeves with the 15th-century princess-seamed robe. If you listed those, then explained why, though pretty, they're not period, you'd be saving a lot of pain for everybody. Betsy Perry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 07:49:30 -0500 (EST) From: "D. R. Leed" Subject: Costuming 001 > >I am in the midst of writing a text for beginning late period > > > -- what do you wish someone had explained to you when > >you started out making period clothing? > > I wish someone had given me a list of what fabrics were and were not period. One of the first dresses I made was a cotehardie with long sleeves, reasonably period...but made out of velour. Burgundy velour. Hey, I thought it looked pretty nifty at the time, till some generous Laurel deigned to enlighten me. Anyway, a list of what modern fabrics can be used (I've had to steer friends away from "period" calico prints more times than I can count) would be useful. Drea ============================= C Code C Code Run Run Code Run Run Dammit Run ============================= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:14:38 -0400 From: walter@tandem.physics.upenn.edu (KAREN WALTER) Subject: herjolfsnes garments Hi there, The original article ( with all the pictures and diagrams) was in a journal called Meddelelser om Groenland (Swedish, I think), v. lxvii (67), 1924. It's in English, called "Buried Norsemen at Herjolfsnes", by Paul Norlund (oops, that 's Poul Norlund. Love this editor). The clothing finds are only a part of this long article. There _are_ dresses (well, one or two out of a total of 30 or so) with little narrow pleats stitched down the front - Norlund tries to relate them to late 15th c. styles, but I think he's reaching, since there seems to be little if any contact between Greenland and the mainland in the 15th c. (during which time the colony died out completely). The pleated dresses don't seem to relate closely to any western European style I'm familiar with. I also think Kohler is fantasizing about the bolero. Norlund also wrote a book in English on the finds, although I don't have the title -- it may be easier for you to search and ILL the book, since most Universities won't ILL their journals. On a related note, does anyone know if these finds were preserved, or did they disintegrate? I suspect textile preservation technology in the 20's was not sophisticated enough to preserve these garments, but it would sure be interesting to know if they were still in a museum somewhere. Karen Walter walter@tandem.physics.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:37:08 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re:Kohler When using Kohler please remember that it was originally written in a forgien languge and than translated by some one that speakes english as a second languge. That is one reason why it has a hard time being understood. On the other hand some of his work with existing garments (some of which no longer exist, destroyed during WWII Sigh) is very good and can be taken as primary or very strong secondary sources. Katrinn Kathy B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:43:06 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: paper for patterns Check at your local recycling center, then one where I live (bloomington Indiana) has all the left over rools of newsprint, both shinny abd dull from the local newspaper. All you have to do is ask and it is free. Several advantages over the want ads, 1) You have to pay for a paper. 2) no more taping together pieces to get a piece big enough for what you want. 3) no writting so that you have to look for the marks that you made and miss. I think it's terrific stuff. Katrinn Kathy B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:49:49 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: Cranach Kathy's soapbox: Please look carefull at all paintings by Cranach. the clothes are beautiful the bodies are not! It is impossable to reproduce these clothes and get them to look exactly as they do in the pictures. The human body is not built like he drew them. Base clothes on his work, including shoulder lines, but don't try to reproduce them as drawn. This goes for Crivilli (Sp?) as well. (Who happens to be my favorite painter) End of rant:) Katrinn Kathy B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:55:03 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: shoulders I found that when I wear my very low cut gowns that come to the edge of the shoulder points that the only way I can make tham stay up is to adopt the posture of the period, I allow my shoulders to sloop down and slightly forward as opposed to back, this creates enough tension on the gowns that they don't fall and gives me a more "period appearnace. Study the posture in the pictures that you have and try to approximate it. Oh yes the period that I do is Itlian Ren, 1475-1500 primarly Northern Italy. Katrinn Kathy B ------------------------------ From: "Hicks, Melissa" Subject: 12C Italian Male Date: Tue, 01 Aug 95 09:45:00 EST Greetings all, A relative newbie in my local SCA group is interested in developing a 12th Century Italian persona. He would like to know if there are any references that could help him with this time period. Apparently he can only find costuming references to women's clothing. Patterns would be excellent, but a couple of general reference texts would also be rather useful. Please help, as I know nothing about men's or women's clothing from this time period or geographic area. (What can I say, I specialise in English tudor) Thanks in advance Melissa Hicks SCA: Meliora de Curci mah@amsa.gov.au ------------------------------ Subject: Re: paper for patterns Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 12:13:14 -0400 From: Elizabeth Lear I haven't mentioned this in at least a year, but people liked it before so I will post it again: I use a medium-weight textured fabric (usually horrifically ugly or something I'll never use) for my patterns. No pinning required - just lay the pattern down on your fabric and cut around it! I've even transferred some of my commonly used paper patterns to fabric. I file them in manilla envelopes, and they're about twice the size of a paper pattern - definitely worth it for the convenience. I also make fabric patterns sized just for my boyfriend and myself. (Most of the others were for sale garb in multiple sizes - I was an SCA merchant for several years). ...eliz ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 13:24:02 TZ Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew? | My research shows that the curved bodice was only during the Tudor | period, and not in every case. I haven't found any evidence of curved | Elizabethan bodices. At the risk of being nitpicky, Elizabeth I would have been very surprised to learn that she was not a Tudor. | As for what I would like to see in a 16th century costuming book: | backs of gowns, colours and fabrics, and proper under-dressing. For | example, every source I have found has suggested that a bumroll was worn | instead of a Spanish farthingale (for middle class), for support under a | French farthingale, and alone in the early 17th century--never in | combination with a Spanish farthingale, although I have seen it worn that | way. I don't quite understand this. Cotgrave's "Dictionary of the French and English Tongues" (1611) described the "French Vardingale" as "the kind of roll used by such women as wear no Vardingale". Minsheu's "Guide into Tongues" (1617) called it "a role to weare under womens gownes." These sources seems to confirm that, as you say, a bum roll was worn without other support by the early 17th Century. However, if the French farthingale is a bum role, I'm not sure what to make of the statement that "a bum roll was worn... for support under a French farthingale." This suggests that the French farthingale was something else entirely. I am curious as to what your sources actually say about this. | That's another thing...primary source materials. I figure the only | good source is a primary source (okay, call me a snob!). You're a snob. :-) Seriously, there are good primary sources and bad primary sources, just as there are good secondary sources and bad secondary sources. Both primary and secondary sources have their own susceptibilities to bias and error. It is important to understand the limitations of each. ------------------------------ Date: 01 Aug 1995 16:44:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Re: Cranach I couldn't resist this, I'm feeling quite misanthropic today - but when I go to the local mall, everyone looks like they're out of a painting by Cranach! It's the people on the soaps which don't look "real". Sheridan Alder sorry, the heat is getting to me ------------------------------ From: BPH3213@ACS.TAMU.EDU Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 17:56:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 1789 clothing for the poor Hi Last night I came across a booklet I thought might be of interest to some here. It is entitled _Instructions for Clothing the Poor_ (well, the real title is a good three inches longer). Anyway, it was published in England in 1789, and gives some pretty exlicit directions on how to cut out clothes for people on public charity. Included were some patterns for caps and bonnets and a few misc. items. It covers mostly children's clothes, but some for women. Not much for men (they weren't eligible for public charity it seems). If anyone would like a better citation or has any question on what this little gem contains, let me know and I'll try and give you what I can. Bryan H bph3213@acs.tamu.edu or Baloo@tamu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Aug 1995 06:58:12 GMT From: paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Re[2]: On hose, tights and knitted In message <9506318072.AA807232139@INETGTWY.ANSTEC.COM> KATHLEEN@anstec.com writes: > The knitted garter stitch quotation about chain mail might also be a > reference to the method of making theatrical or movie "chain mail" -- > Knitted grey wool or wool spray painted silver. For example, check out > Kenneth Branagh's version of "Henry V". Brian Blessed is wearing a real > mail coif; the rest of the cast are wearing knitted coifs. Most medieval > films and plays have the cast wearing the knitted stuff. It's a wonder they can get the knitters to use wire wool... Paul C. Dickie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 17:55:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Dianne Karp Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 355, 7/31/95 This poins out another necessary item. When writing a booklet or preparing notes for a presentation, give it to a rank novice and let them tell you where it doesnt make sense. Many times, when teaching folks to ride, I have to stop and break it down even more simply. I'll never forget the young lady who , replying to my direction ~pick up the reins~, asked ~what are `reins'~!!!!!! Siobhan n S On Tue, 1 Aug 1995 jennyb@pdd.3com.com wrote: > > -- what do you wish someone had explained to you when > >you started out making period clothing? > > A while back I wrote an introductory set of leaflets for a Viking > re-enactment group on how to make 10th century clothing. Many members > (particularly the men) had never sewn in their lives & needed elementary > sewing instructions, how to thread a needle, how to start off, how to > make the stitches, how to finish. > > make it easier for him. Half an hour later he returned in triumph asking > what to do next, "make a knot in the thread" we told him. Naturally he > knotted the thread around the eye of the needle! (well it makes sense if > you've just spent half an hour threading it, you don't want the thread > to come out again). ------------------------------ From: ChesHav@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 21:43:57 -0400 Subject: Re: 12C Italian Male I have many books that would help but they are in storage and I cannot remeber their titles. The one that I have with me that devotes a great deal to males in general is Patterns for Theatrical Costumes, by Katherine Strand Holkeboer. ISBN number 0-89676-125-8, Drama Book Publishers New York, 29.95. It recommends Men's Garments by R.L. Davis same publisher, The Cut of Men's Clothes by Norah Waugh, London:Faber and Faber.. I know that this is a difficult book to get and if you are not a prof you cannot order it directly. Barnes and Noble will order them for you at the cover cost. It will take 6 weeks to get. Book Stop hates this publisher and refuses to order from them, they goes as far as telling you that the book from this publisher are out of print. If you are near a University go to the various book stores and go to the costuming text book section. Look at all the books for the reference section and see who they used for the mens costumes. Take pen and paper and be prepared to spend some time there. If you find a book expect to pay text book prices, 15x the normal price. ( I used to work for a text book store. The only way they are allowed to order a specific number of book is if they pay the higher price set by the warehouser that supplies them.) If you can find it at a Half-Price books you will pay less than half the text book price. Ciao Ches ------------------------------ From: ChesHav@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 21:53:41 -0400 Subject: Actual Garments I went to school at UT in Austin, Texas. In the textiles department there is a library of actual garments that only the PHD students get to handle with gloves and masks. I am assuming this next part: every University has to have such a library. If you know someone in the Grad program in textiles or costuming they may be able to get you in as an obvserver. You will not get to touch anything but your bud can spread out the garment and pull out detailed photos of each square foot of it and detailed written notes of each area. I was fortunate to see several garments donated to UT by past regents collected from Opera companies in Europe that went belly up in the early 1800's. The garments were as old as 50 years by then! Good Luck Ciao Ches ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 22:49:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Sharron Fina Subject: Re: Re[2]: On hose, tights and knitted On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, Paul C. Dickie wrote: > It's a wonder they can get the knitters to use wire wool... > > Paul C. Dickie > Aw, come on .... Everybody's heard of steel wool :^} ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 1995 13:43:07 +0000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Chain Mail Knitting >In message <9506318072.AA807232139@INETGTWY.ANSTEC.COM> >KATHLEEN@anstec.com writes: >> The knitted garter stitch quotation about chain mail might also be a >> reference to the method of making theatrical or movie "chain mail" -- Paul c. Dickie commented: >It's a wonder they can get the knitters to use wire wool... Haven't you guys heard of Steel Wool? (Must be a hassle to spin, though! ;-)) I read an article about commuters on the Blue Mountains train (journey to Sydney approx. 1 1/2 hours then) and one guy spent three weeks of these trips making wire loops for Chain Mail for his Roleplaying character. Gillian ------------------------------ Subject: Tights vs hose, and a codpiece From: ke6isf@outlander (Dennis Allen Carr) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 95 00:34:19 PDT Catriona cleared up the authenticity thing for me, and thank you very much. However just one thing: What the hey is a codpiece? KE6ISF uublip!outlander!ke6isf@ccss.com Just say NO.J.! The only true Ben Franklin look-alike! Driving people insane since 1974.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 95 04:07:38 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Tights vs hose, and a codpiece >Catriona cleared up the authenticity thing for me, and thank you very >much. However just one thing: > >What the hey is a codpiece? Well...you know how young women stuff their bras to look more genetically endowed... A codpiece is a fabric pouch that contains the male genetalia. With hose constructed of two seperate legs, you can see the need for this! They were (usually? always?) constructed of a fabric that contrasted with the fabric of the hose. As with any fashion...at times this became a grotesque, padded thing that jutted out in an inhuman fashion. Take a good look at Henry VIII's "skirts"...often you'll see one poking out much further than nature would dictate. (See...men had their silly vanities, too!) I'm not sure, but I believe they were sometimes used to hold more valuables than just the family jewels. Can anyone confirm this? Kathleen (Catriona) (P.S.--the human shape was distorted in so many ways in history! During Henry VIII's reign...sumptuary laws were passed to limit the width of men's shoes, since they had become absolutely silly! Earlier, in the 1400's, long pointy toes (on hose) grew so out of proportion, they had to be attached to the leg so the wearer wouldn't trip! You know what's weird? I actually looked up sumptuary laws for the Roundhead period in the 17th century...and there weren't any! Go figure!!) ------------------------------ End of Volume 357 -----------------------