From: owner-h-costume-digest (Historic Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: Historic Costume Digest V3 #156 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Historic Costume Digest Wednesday, August 9 1995 Volume 3, Number 156 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Shoes Re: Chain Mail Knitting Scottish Magazine, Kilts Re: Shoes corset bones, back necklines, cord, hose Modern Chain Mail ???? Re: Commedia Re: What do you wish you knew Re: corset bones, back necklines, cord, hose Calze continued Re: SCA question Re: SCA question Re: Pattern drafting systems Interest in the Civil War era History Computerization Project Home Page Alcega's Tailors Pattern Book Re: What do you wish you knew Dover Publications Phone number ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 10:08:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Shoes Searching my database, I find that I have five books that deal with shoes. They are: Shoes & Pattens HMSO If you are interested in 14th century shoes, this is the best, bar none! Hald, Margrethe Primitive Shoes Ntl Museum of Denmar This is very good for early period shoes. Northhampton Museum Shoe & Leather Bibliography Northhampton Museum This is just a bibliography, but it has a number of good pointers. Thomas, Susan Medieval Footwear From Coventry Coventry Museum 0-901606-15-4 This is good for medieval shoes. Its only drawback is that it uses line drawings instead of actual photos. Wilson, Eunice History of Shoe Fashions Theatre Arts Books 0-87830-548-3 This is a decent general history. Jaelle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Aug 1995 10:26:33 +0600 From: beedge@vt.edu (Ellen Edge) Subject: Re: Chain Mail Knitting It would really have to depend on whether you wanted real chain mail or a knit. Real chain mail involves thousands of tiny little rings linked together so that if one or ten rings fell out in combat, the whole thing would only be a little affected. If you had a knit, on the other hand, it might, um, unravel. An interesting Monty-Python type image . . . Ellen ("eavesdropping" on my husband's messages . . .) > Has anyone ever made a chailmail-making machine? I'd imagine it >would be--well, doable. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 10:43:58 -0400 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: Scottish Magazine, Kilts Thank you to everyone that responded to my posting about "Bliss the Magazine for Scottish Brides". I'm sorry that I didn't put the address in the post. Dumb. I did find it at a book store called "Bookworld". I'm trying to find it again, so I can keep getting it. I think this is the address to write to. I'm not sure. Bliss Magazine Scotland The leith Publishing Co. LTD> Admiral House 30 Maritime St. Leith, Edinburgh EH6 0FA Tel: 0131 555 6511 Fax: 0131 555 6587 Hope this helps. If anyone contact them, please tell me. I would also like a scription to this. The cost in the book store was $8.95. Well worh it. Kimberly D. Stockton syrilla@aol.com "Who said that I dress funny?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 09:34:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Shoes On Fri, 4 Aug 1995, William M. Sunlin wrote: > On Thu, 3 Aug 1995, Edward Wright wrote: > > > Does anyone know a good source for historical shoes, especially for > > men? I've seen Amazon Dry Goods' shoe catalog, but the prices are > > fairly high and I'm reluctant to lay out that kind of money without > > being able to see the quality of the shoes (or even the leather). Has > > anyone here ordered any of these shoes? If so, can you comment on the > > quality of the materials, workmanship, and service you received? Does > > anyone have any other sources to recommend? > > Yes. If you can find a book by Margreth Hald (she's Danish). Her > patterns are mostly of feminine footgear, and are broken into 3 types: > boots, shoes and slippers. Here patterns are actual layouts of the musuem > artifacts. But like an Amercian Indian moccasin, they are basically > folded around the foot in question, and sewed into place. But if he's looking at the types of shoes that Amazon carries, then I suspect that Hald's designs are just a _smidge_ early for what he's interested in. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 17:59:15 -0400 From: TheaG@aol.com Subject: corset bones, back necklines, cord, hose Hi, All. I've just caught up on my digests and thought I'd toss my thoughts into the bucket. Sorry for my tardiness on the discussions. - ------ Corset bones: Someone mentioned Greenberg & Hammer (NY) as a source but I didn't see mentioned that they sell the steel boning in rolls. This is not mentioned in their catalog; you have to ask for it. It's sold by the pound, not the yard, but there's lots in a roll. Bought this way, you can cut every bone to exactly the length you need and have no waste. I cut the boning with a steel chisel then smooth the ends with a moto-tool (Dremel) and dip the ends. I wash my pair of bodies (corset) in the washing machine and have never had any rust, though I have had bones wear through the fabric in places. [Thanks to Cindy Johnson for suggesting the moto-tool and turning me on to G&H!] - ----- Neckline in back and slipping shoulders: I can not speak to what neckline is most _common_ in back. I have seen an Italian painting (fresco)* that has seven girls all dressed alike. One of the girls has her back turned to us and the top of her dress in back is straight across and just barely above the level of her armpits. She (and the other girls) are wearing a sheer garment that covers their shoulders. In the front, this garment (a partlet?) descends vertically from the side of the neck to the bodice. In the back, it follows the base of the neck. Attached (?) to the edge of this is a ruff. The back is really strange, though. There is a line of dark trim or embroidery extending from the base of the neck to the waist of the gown. Either the partlet is waist length, sheer, decorated, and worn on the _outside_ of the gown, or the partlet and gown are both decorated so as to make this appear to be an unbroken line. There are other Italian paintings that show a sheer fabric over the shoulders and extending down over the bodice of the gown. *Artist: Francesco Montemezzano Title: Detached fresco: A Family receives an Abbess. (from the Palazzo Regazzoni at Sacile near Pordenone) My source: Italian Pictures of the Renaissance...Venetial School, Vol. II, by Bernard Berenson. Published by Phaidon Press Limited, London and in the U.S. by Phaidon Publishers, Inc., NY. (sorry, no publication date) ISBN 0-7148-1486-5 When wearing a gown with a low neck in front (no matter how the back is cut), I've taken to pinning the sleeves or shoulders of the gown to my chemise or partlett. - ----- On Lucet cord, someone wrote: > I do not have any documentation on how historically accurate >the devices are, but they are the best method I have yet found of >producing one's own cord for the purpose of lacing. _Textiles and Clothing_ discusses finger-loop braids found in 12th through 15th century deposits. These require no device to create and make a strong half-round shaped cord. The instructions are easy to follow and the cords are quick to turn out. _Medieval Finds from Excavations in London:4. Textiles and Clothing c.1150-c.1450_ by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard and Kay Staniland. Published by the Museum of London, 1992. (pgs 138-140) ISBN 0-11-290445-9 - ----- On men's hose/tights, someone wrote: >The hose were constructed as two seperate legs, and were *not* sewn >together like pantyhose. I believe you, however I am confused. I swear I've seen pictures of men, viewed from the back, wearing short (just below waist length) doublets. The garment covering their posterior was closely fitted and had three vertical seams on the seat area. Are we just talking about different times and/or regions? Thea TheaG@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Aug 1995 18:24:31 EDT From: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu Subject: Modern Chain Mail ???? Does anyone remeber seeing a book on things you could make from soda can ring- pulls? It was a clever way to recycle those nasty little chunks of metal that you had to pull off the can. Some people dropped them into the can, but mostly they ended up on streets, etc. Anyway, somebody did a book and a major use was "Modern" Chain Mail, where the pull tab was in the front and the part from the can hooked them together. I don't think it would work as well with the new ones that want to stay attached to the can. Another recycle idea was to save the "keys" that used to come on sardine cans, etc. Do they still make them? Or is everything pop-top??? PS Thanks for the discussion of codpieces - it made my week!!! I understand that suits of armor (the sheet-metal ones) also had codpiece-cups that could be sized to intimidate your foe... Like they say, "If the world was logical, men would ride side-saddle..." Bye for now! B) - --------------------------------------------------------=|=|=|=|=|-------- Bonnie Glickman |=|=|=|=|= Bio. Dept.; Monroe Community College =|=|=|=|=| Rochester, NY 14610 phone: (716) 292-2725 |=|=|=|=|= email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu =|=|=|=|=| ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 16:18:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: Re: Commedia Commedia De L'arte(sp?) was an improvisational theatre form that originated in italy sometime in the rennaisance. There were stock characters: Harlequin, Columbina, Puncinella were a few, that did a standard romantic slapstick. Moliere was heavily influenced by commedia(see The Miser). The english punch and judy are also derived from italian commedia. What I've seen done in the commedia style is usually italian rennaisance and very colorful. There is a school of commedia in Noprthern California. It's in Blue Lake. They might have historical materials though acting is their forte. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 22:35:30 -0400 From: KenDawe@aol.com Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew In a message dated 95-08-04 09:09:19 EDT, csy20688@ggr.co.uk (Mrs C S Yeldham) writes: >I think the thing I wish I had known when I started was to _believe_ what >the pattern/instructions You muat have found patters with much better instructions than I ever found! Thank Ghod my wife is an experianced costumer and was available to clarify things for me--and to say "There seems to be a section missing, let's see what we need to do." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 95 21:22:57 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: corset bones, back necklines, cord, hose Thea wrote: :Corset bones: Someone mentioned Greenberg & Hammer (NY) as a source but I :didn't see mentioned that they sell the steel boning in rolls. This is not :mentioned in their catalog; you have to ask for it. It's sold by the pound, :not the yard, but there's lots in a roll. Bought this way, you can cut every :bone to exactly the length you need and have no waste. I cut the boning with :a steel chisel then smooth the ends with a moto-tool (Dremel) and dip the :ends. I wash my pair of bodies (corset) in the washing machine and have :never had any rust, though I have had bones wear through the fabric in :places. [Thanks to Cindy Johnson for suggesting the moto-tool and turning me :on to G&H!] G&H Fall 1994 catalog page 4 lists steel hoop bonign $9.85 for a 12 foot roll. I loved it when they started their 800 number (800-955-5135). I cut mine with a heavy duty pair of wire cutters. It really isn't "cutting" so much as holding very tight as I snap it off. I then use a fine to smooth it and then dip it. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 12:24:37 EST From: old-cthulhu.engr.sgi.com!sgi.sgi.com!SMTPGWY!dlxibm!Liz_Jones Subject: Calze continued Joe, you seem to know a fair amount about the hose issues in Italy in the 15th century. You mentioned that in the earlier part of the century they were bias-cut wool. I have cut some of these, but the butt does not afford enough room for sitting, no matter how I cut the seat pattern. SO I have decided on the two separate calze for now, as it is more appropriate for the 1450 garment that I am assembling. However, I do want to get that seat pattern correct: what other type of material do you think the later joined calze were made from, and do you have any sources on any of this? Thanks. Liz Jones (sca Damiana Illaria d'Onde) ljones@datalogix.com (you can't "reply" - must address new) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:52:19 CST From: "Mary Wood" Subject: Re: SCA question Having once been a member of the SCA in Milwaukee, I was surprised to hear it was now exclusively Scottish, so I asked some one with current ties to the Milwaukee chapter, and this was her reply: - ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- I'd like to know what Milwaukee area SCA groups this person knows that deal exclusively with Scottish areas! We have a lot of Welsh personas in the local Barony, but also Portugese, Viking, Jewish, Byzantine, British, German and several Slavic personas that can I think of right now. (Not to forget the Mongol sector either, where some people have alternate Middle Eastern personas.) Admittedly, in general in the SCA Celtic personas have been almost nauseatingly popular so you will see them in abundance (but generally Welsh, not Scottish). On a personal level, I'm developing a persona of someone in Transylvania that is part of the Medieval German Saxon colony there. There really is a great deal of variety! Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097 wrote: > > > Woops I did not mean the georaphicial location of the chapter but the location > > that they are studying. I'm in the Milwaukee area and the only SCA groups I > > know of in this area study the Scotish exclusively. The areas I'd like to study > > are more Eastern European mainly Germany, Poland, and Russia. However the > > English and French also intrest me they are not of ancestorial tree. > > :> > > > > Mary Wood MPW@gml.lib.uwm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:28:55 -0400 From: margritt@mindspring.com (Margritte) Subject: Re: SCA question >Let me know if you'd like a copy of my Eastern Europe/Middle East/Asia >booklist (this goes for anyone out there. I've been busy since the >last verion I posted here!). I'll be bringing copies to Pennsic as >well. If you (and other interested people) are going to Pennsic, >there's a class you might want to take: Can you e-mail me a copy of this booklist, please. I've got friends who would like to see it. Thanks. - -Margritte (margritt@mindspring.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:40:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Shirley Matheis Subject: Re: Pattern drafting systems > > I'm doing some research on 19th- and early 20th-century patent drafting > systems, a subject that has always fascinated me. The authors of these > systems provided a set of sizes (this is before pattern sizes were > standardized), sometimes special drafting tools (which could take a variety > of forms), and often books or magazines with patterns to be drafted with > their system. > I have an interesting set of "tools" and booklets that I acquired at a garage sale. The booklets are as follows: SNOW'S SUCCESS SYSTEM OF GARMENT CUTTING (copyright 1904) " " " " " " (Supplement No. 1) (1905) " " " " " " " No. 2 (1906) SNOW'S SKIRT SYSTEM (Instruction Book) (1904) The tools are for the bodices and consist of a (wooden) sort of square and a se of cardboard strips with graduated markings for bust sizes 22 to 50. These strips fit into clips on the square. When used with the charted patterns, quite accurate garments result. (I don't have the skirt tools but would like to know if anyone else has them.) One other booklet I have is FASHION MAGAZINE AND SELF INSTRUCTOR of the Shorthand or 20th Century Tailor System (Morris Pattern Company (copyright 1909, perfected 1914) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:10:23 -0500 (CDT) From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Subject: Interest in the Civil War era Yes!!! There are at least a handful of us interested in mid-nineteenth century clothing on H-Costume. In months past I have offered a CW era clothing bibliography, posted tables of contents to clothing articles in Civil War Lady and Citizen's Companion, reviewed pertinent museum cata- logs, inquired about locations of homespun dresses and sources of calico buttons, begged for (and gotten assistance) on sources of reasonably priced silk and practical instructions on homemade shoes appropriate for the Southern refugee woman. But I'm always looking for more information. Could you post a review of the latest Civil War Lady conference? or interesting information on proper construction and materials for ball- gowns, for the use of the lucky (grumble, grumble) people who may be able to attend one of your balls? (We have a couple from the Texas Rifles going to New Orleans over Labor Day holiday, and I can't wait to hear how it goes). Vicki Betts Texas Rifles and LSFS vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Aug 95 13:49:50 -0700 From: History Computerization Project Subject: History Computerization Project Home Page (Please post or add a link to the following, if you consider it to be appropriate for your list.) History Computerization Project on the Internet If you visit the History Computerization Project (at "http://www.history.la.ca.us/history") you will find: 1) Annotated directories of hundreds of historical resources; 2) Historical photos on display; and 3) An online order form to request a free, printed, History Database tutorial on the use of computer database management for historical research, writing, and cataloging. The History Computerization Project is building a history information network for the exchange of information between historians, librarians, archivists, museum curators, preservation groups, and historical societies. The project employs the History Database program, running on IBM PC compatible computers. The program is used for both cataloging and research with all types of historical materials, including photographs, museum objects, archives, books, journals, and oral history interviews. The course textbook, Database Design: Applications of Library Cataloging Techniques, by David L. Clark, is published by the TAB division of McGraw-Hill. For information contact: History Computerization Project Home Page: http://www.history.la.ca.us/history E-Mail: history@history.la.ca.us Address: 24851 Piuma Road, Malibu, CA 90265-3036 USA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 12:53:27 -0400 From: TheaG@aol.com Subject: Alcega's Tailors Pattern Book I have recently been able to ILL Juan de Alcega's Tailors Pattern Book. To have the diagrams is very useful in terms of seeing pattern shape and layout but it would be nice to have a sketch or photo of the garment made up. Does anyone know whether anyone has made the various garments Alcega gives and make pictures of them? Just wondering, Thea TheaG@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 09:00:00 EST From: "Hicks, Melissa" Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew Here in Australia, one of the SCA groups held a Yulefeast in December, (summer for the rest of you). Many of the women wearing cotehardies and bliouts (sp?) went down with heatstroke, mainly I think because they wore tightly fitted clothing from neck to wrist and ankle. Whereas those of us in later renaissance clothing, low-cut necklines (eg the square neckline of Tudor) and hoops generally the Spanish farthingale, did not have any problems. The dress I wore that day was a friend's old Venetian which I borrowed which was made of Corduroy! However I did not feel unduly uncomfortable and look amazed when the others started fainting from the heat! It was explained to me that becuase most of my upper chest was bare and there was no tightly fitted clothing from the waist down, my body had more "breathing space" and therefore I could handle the heat more. Since then, I swear by my hoops in Summer. Melissa Hicks SCA: Meliora de Curci mah@amsa.gov.au ---------- From: grm+ To: h-costume Subject: Re: What do you wish you knew Date: Friday, 4 August 1995 20:30 D.R. Leed wrote: :As to corsets, I agree thoroughly. My friends look at me as if I'm crazy :when I pack corset and bodice for Pennsic, but it honestly is comfortable. I found that I have rivulets of sweat when I wear things like chitons, but I'm cool and comforable in my hoops. I manufacture my own breeze and there's no fabric sticking to me. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:31:13 -0700 From: Sherry Day Subject: Dover Publications Phone number Hi everyone, I have something to contribute! I didn't think I would since I am new to historic costuming (via SCA) and sewing. I found the phone number to Dover Publications after trying to find a book store that had Dover's catalog. There is a 800 number that seems to be only for ordering since when I called it asking for the catalog, the operator gave me a non-800 number. (800) 223-3130 and (516) 294-7000 are the phone numbers. I called the second number and was told that I would receive a catalog that contains all of the available books. Sherry P.S. I would have sent the phone numbers to whomever updates the FAQ, but I don't have that person's email address on hand. ------------------------------ End of Historic Costume Digest V3 #156 ************************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!