From: owner-h-costume-digest (Historic Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: Historic Costume Digest V3 #159 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk Historic Costume Digest Thursday, August 10 1995 Volume 3, Number 159 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: SCA question Re: SCA question help! Feather mites--! Re: Historic Costume Digest V3 #155 Re: Historic Costume Digest V3 #157 Re:Beauty, body shapes and 'being fat' Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 358, 8/8/95 Re: Shoes A good basic costuming book.... numbering change Re: Historic Costume Digest V3 #156 RE: Horizontal Boning in 18th Century Stays 10th Century Costume Booklet Re: SCA Re: numbering change ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:10:07 -0400 From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Subject: Re: SCA question >Woops I did not mean the georaphicial location of the chapter but the >location that they are studying. I'm in the Milwaukee area and the >only SCA groups I know of in this area study the Scotish exclusively. >The areas I'd like to study are more Eastern European mainly Germany, >Poland, and Russia. However the English and French also intrest me >they are not of ancestorial tree. It's unfortunate for you that your local group seems to be specializing in an area you're not interested in, but there are several things you can do about it. As mentioned in other mail, the SCA does not officially divide groups by area of study, but the members may enjoy researching one thing together and you're left out. But you're not alone in the SCA! My recommendation to you, as a Russian persona myself, is to get out there and research what *you* are interested in. It took me a couple of years to get rolling, but research materials are easier and easier to find once you know how and where to look. My barony is full of English and Viking personas, but we're up to four Russians, two Japanese, a couple of Mongols, some Italians, etc, as people find what interests them. Let me know if you'd like a copy of my Eastern Europe/Middle East/Asia booklist (this goes for anyone out there. I've been busy since the last verion I posted here!). I'll be bringing copies to Pennsic as well. If you (and other interested people) are going to Pennsic, there's a class you might want to take: Researching Things Russian and Eastern European Wed, 8/16, 4pm. A brainstorming workshop to provide opportunity for people with Russian and Eastern European personas (or people with an interest in the region) to share ideas and sources. Particular focus will be given to the problem of finding period materials in English. Bring ideas to share! But even then, don't feel you have to limit yourself. Yes, 75% of my garb is Russian or Ukranian, but the other is a mix of Middle Eastern/Turkish (I teach bellydance in my local SCA group) and Western Europe (I act in a lot of English plays in my local group). I like to be versatile, and I can pick what's appropriate to a specific event or to the weather. ...eliz (Yelizaveta Medvedeva) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 07:07:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Kazimierz Samostrelov Subject: Re: SCA question Greetings The SCA does not allow formation of geo-centric groups. Each of the kingdoms is based on the period of 600-1600 and all of the world that was known in the medieval period (no, not the Americas). Therefore, there are Turks and Saracens, Chinese, Russian, Pole, Norse, Italian (lots) French, Spanish,... all in the same group. SO yes, it is common to be in a group that is not formed around your personna's geographic area. If you need more info, please post private to cnogy@comp.uark.edu Later ] :> > :> > I originally wrote: > > :> > I know this is not the proper place but there seem to > :> >be a few SCA people here so perhaps someone may answer a question > :> >for me. > :> > > :> > From what I've seen all SCA chapters seem to dwell on > :> >England, Schotland, Ireland, and Wales. Ate there any main land > :> >European Chapters? And if so what about Eastern European chapters? > :> > > :> >And one more question is it common to be isn a chapter that centers > :> >around a georagaphicial w`area which is not in your personal ancestary? > :> > > :> >dennis > > > :> Captain Sputnik Kid replied > :> From the limited information I have there are SCA groups on continental > :> Europe...the kingdom is known as Drachenwald (or at least one of the kingdoms, > :> I'm not sure if there are more), but the groups are more spread out than in the > :> Brittish Isles and the U.S. One thing you may want to try, if you live near a > :> U.S. military base you should be able to contact someone in the SCA (from what > :> I've heard there are usually a few members at all overseas bases) even if that > :> group is not very convenient for you to get to they may have more information > :> about groups in your local area... > > Woops I did not mean the georaphicial location of the chapter but the location > that they are studying. I'm in the Milwaukee area and the only SCA groups I > know of in this area study the Scotish exclusively. The areas I'd like to study > are more Eastern European mainly Germany, Poland, and Russia. However the > English and French also intrest me they are not of ancestorial tree. > :> > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 09:55:27 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: help! Feather mites--! Hello to all. I had a question about feather mites. I bought a nice bunch of guinea fowl feathers and some ostrich plumes several months ago, and recently pulled out the guinea fowl feathers, only to find bare spots on them. "Feather mites," said my friend. "That's terrible." He recommended that I wash them in hot water (which I did) and steam them back to shape (which I haven't done yet). Just for ducks, I also microwaved the feathers. Another friend recommended that I store them with cedar or bay leaves or some other form of "vermin repellent" which I will do. My questions are: (a) is there anything else I can do to kill the little beasties? (b) Do I also need to do it to the ostrich plumes with which the guinea feathers were stored? (c) is the water and microwave enough? Thanks Gail DeCamp decampg@ngc.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:38:12 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: Historic Costume Digest V3 #155 Re: SCA geography. Except they *won't* let you do Middle Eastern or Byzantine medieval (probably jealous 'cause Europe was so uncivilized by comparison :-) ) But you can do Japanese? Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:55:47 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: Historic Costume Digest V3 #157 Sorry list. This is to Dennis Allen Carr, because mail bounced back. He posted a message to me about a book on costume implements. I don't remember writing anything about this. If he could mail me, off-list perhaps, with more specifics, I will try to help. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu p.s. sorry about previous msg. to SCA. Lucky Milwaukeeans, they get Mongols *and* Middle East. Anyone doing mongol costumes? There are 2 exibits floating around on the art/history of Mongolia, *including* costumes and textiles. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 11:38:26 +1000 From: bclarke1@metz.une.edu.au (Bronwyn Clarke) Subject: Re:Beauty, body shapes and 'being fat' >One of the effects of full skirts below a tight fitting bodice is to make >the waist look smaller -- depends on what you mean by fat, I guess. > > Catherine In the light of other assorted comments about period ideas of beauty, isn't it interesting that in modern times, the fashions for larger women all require a body shape that is large at the bust, rather than the hips? (Have a look in the Vogue pattern catalogue, where they give recommended shapes for one section of patterns - very few for small busted/big hipped women.) This seems to be quite opposite to other centuries, where the flabby tummy, soft hips and small bust look was definitely *in* if all those paintings of nudes can be believed; and of course, all those full skirts which gave a wide look to the hip level. No wonder some modern women worry about looking 'fat' in period costume! :-) Did our fascination with a bust-heavy look begin with the 1948 (?) 'New Look'? Speaking as some-one who's definitely cello-shaped (in fact, verging on pear-shaped), I much prefer wearing pre 1914 costume to the on-going battle of trying to appear professional and confident when my shape is not part of that image! (Which is probably why I veer towards the mildly, neatly eccentric in my work clothes...) Just my 5c worth (we don't have 2c pieces in Australia any more..) Bronwyn (who has now paid for and collected the fabric for the 18C mantua, and will cut out the calico/muslin trial run at the weekend...) Bronwyn Clarke, Assistant General Staff Development Officer, Personnel Services, University of New England, ARMIDALE NSW 2351, AUSTRALIA email: bclarke1@metz.une.edu.au Phone: (067) 733431 Fax (067) 733721 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 18:35:07 -0700 From: s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com (Stella Nemeth) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 358, 8/8/95 >More importantly, painters frequently paint how the people want to be >seen, reflecting that period's ideals of beauty versus how they (and the >clothes) really looked. There is a good book that discusses this called >SEING THROUGH CLOTHES, my copy is lent out, so I don't have the author's >name handy, > > >Another thought to add to the thread on the accuracy of paintings as >primary sources: > > How accurate are today's magazines and fashion photo's - how >representative are they of the way women look and dress. Especially >given the current trend of 'touching up' photos with airbrushing and >computer manipulation. > > Personally, I think that they are representative of only a very small >section of the population. Given that - how accurate are paintings from >the past likely to be? > Just a comment on these two quotes from two other members of the list. There is a book on the history of costume that I read a while back. I'm sorry, I don't have access to it and can't remember its name, but a picture of a painting and a photo of a dress that was an almost identical copy of the dress in the painting have stayed with me. The dress was 18th Century. In the painting (DuBarry, I think, the dress was an orange dream dress, lighter than air, floating silk and lace. The real dress was another story. All of that silk and lace was heavy and the dress just seemed to hang there. The author pointed out that the real dress was a copy, and that it was old and that it might have given a different appearance when it was new. But the point was still made. The painter, and the people of his time, saw the clothes differently than we see them. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 95 16:27:30 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: Re: Shoes | Searching my database, I find that I have five books that deal with | shoes. They are: No, no. Apparently, I didn't make myself clear enough. I was asking about sources for shoes, not sources for information about shoes. I am familiar enough with historical styles; what I want to know is where to buy them. For the 16th Century, I have considered making my own out of upholstery velvet, but I really need shoes that I can wear outside. That means leather, and I lack both the equipment and the skills to make a decent leather shoe, except possibly the moccasin type. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 00:36:04 -0400 From: Rebecca Handcock Subject: A good basic costuming book.... Hi all. I am currently looking through my favourite costuming book. It is called 'Costume Cavalcade' by Henny Harald Hansen, my edition 1975. It contains 680 colour drawings taken from contempory drawings and art and follows the development of European costume from Egyptian times through to the seventies. The plates are followed by a discussion of each period, refenced back to the plates. Each discussion draws on the social and other influences of the period, relating it back to the costume, art and architecture. I like this book because it enables one to get a easy grasp of how each period looked and what its major points were. The use of a contempory style of illustration helps for that overall feel. The other interesting fact about this book is that it was the first real costuming book I ever read (in my early teens). It was this book that gave me a love of the field that I still have, and renews its interest every time I look at it! ISBN 0 413 28800 5 Rebecca - ------------------------------- Rebecca Handcock ---------------------------- GIS Labs, Department of Geography, University of Toronto handcock@geog.utoronto.ca || rebecca@gu.uwa.edu.au - ------------ "Life is complex. It has real and imaginary parts" ------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 02:08 CDT From: tallison@mcs.com (Tim Allison) Subject: numbering change Why did the numbering jump from 158 to 360? And which sequence is current? Is this related to the machine change? Inquiring minds want to know Thanks Carol Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 10:49:04 BST From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: Historic Costume Digest V3 #156 > PS Thanks for the discussion of codpieces - it made my week!!! > I understand that suits of armor (the sheet-metal ones) also had > codpiece-cups that could be sized to intimidate your foe... Like they > say, "If the world was logical, men would ride side-saddle..." In combat? (Jousting or cavalry). It might be possible to make a sidesaddle as secure to stay in (though I have doubts), and rely on teamwork to make sure no-one is attacking your back, but I'd rather face the direction I was going. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 8:51:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Horizontal Boning in 18th Century Stays >I am about to start work on a Period Impressions pattern for half-boned >1760's-1770's stays. These stays have rows of horizontal boning at the top >front which must take and hold a curved shape (if you laid the stays down on >a table, they would not lie flat; the front curve would stand up from the >table). Does anyone have any ideas on the most suitable boning material to >use? I've never tried the horizontal boning in my 1770's stays, though it is there on the "source documentation" from Diderot too. Nonetheless, if I used it, I would use regular steel corset boning. I haven't read your pattern instructions, but my take on the horizontal boning is that it maintains a curved shape while the corset is ON you -- and who cares that it lays flat when laid on the table. If this is the goal, then flat steel boning is as good as a curved something-or-other. When the corset is curved around you, the horizontal bone(s) ensure that the front will curve (bow outward) rather than be oval, as the body actually is (oval). I've also heard that a wooden busk (which can be semi-circular rather than flat; and can be carved decoratively) helps to hold the front curve out too. <============================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 95 14:43:56 BST From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Subject: 10th Century Costume Booklet Thanks to everybody who volunteered to help out with distributing my booklet Heather Jones runs a small publishing company, so she has access to all the necessary facilities & it looks like she's the most sensible option for distributing the thing. (She can get good rates on copying & probably do it cheaper than most people). I would like to update the booklet a little, I'm arranging things with Heather at the moment, so I suppose anyone who wants a copy should contact Heather at hrjones@uclink.berkely.edu Some theatrical publishers were interested too, but at the moment my feeling is that I haven't got the time to do the amount of work required to upgrade the thing into a fully theatrical costuming book, (maybe some day, but not right now). Thanks to everybody for your interest & offers of help Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 11:05:00 -0400 (edt) From: "Herriman, Karey" Subject: Re: SCA Dear Friends: SCA does not dictate what type of costume you should wear or what part of the world you should be from it only dictates the time period which is from the early bronze age to the time of Tudor mania. I think if you approach the group and say I am of a Japanese, Middle Eastern etc. persona that you will be totally welcomed. It has been my experience that many people choose Anglo-Saxon costumes as that is what is familiar to them and it is also often the easiest thing to find information on and to sew if you are just starting out. The most important thing is that you have fun and meet a lot of new people with the same likes as you. So give it a whirl and go to an event dressed as what you want to be and I am sure you will be accepted. Well, I will get off of my soap box now. By the way I just joined this list and I am enjoying it very much. Karey Herriman (a.k.a. Karoline Johnston of Lindley) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 08:17:53 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: numbering change > Why did the numbering jump from 158 to 360? And which sequence is current? > Is this related to the machine change? Inquiring minds want to know The numbering change to which Carol refers is a change in the digest numbering sequence. Not everyone is aware of this change, because so far we haven't made any official announcement about what we (Gretchen and I) are doing. So I guess you guys can consider this "official notice". :-) Gretchen and I have decided to change the list over to automation (mostly) and run it off my machine's majordomo server. This will mean SOME duplication of messages for a couple days, for a few of you, until the switch is complete. WHEN the switch is COMPLETE, you'll need to send your submissions (posts you want everyone to see) to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com in order for them to be properly distributed to everyone. But don't do this until it's been announced!! Until the announcement, please continue to send submissions to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu. With this switch comes some changes, but nothing admin-wise: Gretchen is staying the day-to-day list admin and I'm staying the archive admin. The nice thing about majordomo lists is that you can manage them through e-mail. Once the list is switched you will be able to unsubscribe *yourself* at any time -- this should make vacations on our part much easier on all of you! :-) We also changed the digest numbering system. The list has been active for three years now, so I've changed to Volume 3, number (whatever). The number was derived from taking the number of the first digest of this year and subtracting the number of the most recent digest at the time the switch was started. Thus v03.n### is the most recent digest to pay attention to. The next digest to go out will be v03.n159. When the new year comes, we'll switch over to v04.n001 and count up again. The switch also means that subscribe, unsubscribe and help message will be automatically trapped by the server and not passed on to the list! This was what convinced us to switch. :-) This does mean, though, that if you use the words "subscribe", "unsubscribe", or "help" in the subject or the first five lines of any message, it will be delayed as it will require manual approval to be passed on to the list (nothing you really need to worry about -- just realize that such messages may experience a 1 day delay.) So I'd avoid using those words, myself :-), but if you forget it's no big deal. Just a minor delay. So expect some "bumps" over the next week or so as we work this all out, but soon we'll be automated and things will work smoothly. - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ End of Historic Costume Digest V3 #159 ************************************** A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!