From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #163 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, August 21 1995 Volume 3, Number 163 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: schools for costume design Perfume through history show. Citations for fireproof clothing TV Alert (USA; Historic Fashion Show on AMC) Academic Garb Introduction. 1835 Coat Victorian Hairstyles Re: 1835 Coat Order of male dress 17th C Clerical Garb Fireproof clothing for historic cooking fireproof clothing Social Attitudes Re: Fireproof clothing for historic cooking ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:06:42 -0400 From: fy289@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Marilyn J Burian) Subject: schools for costume design Alison, You might want to consider sending for the catalog from Kent State University in Ohio. I believe they have a school of design. I have no idea of what the school's reputation is in that area. I DO KNOW that the college has a costume museum as part of the school or college and it is a very good museum. It houses the costume collection of Hart of Rodgers and Hart composers. The collection ranges from historical (I've seen back as far as the 1700's) to Hollywood and celebrity. Right now the display is of opera costumes and there might be another one of beaded dresses by some well known beading house (who is the last of his line). These costumes are used by the students of the school for study as well as put on display for the public. The school has uses the latest presevation techniques. My friends and I go see these collections several times a year. Good Luck in finding the correct school for yourself. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:45:26 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Perfume through history show. I see by an article in Clarinet (through Reuter news service) that the French government has put together a neat travelling exhibit on perfumes worn throughout the ages. The show is called "Heavenly Scent" and is currently on display in Brighton, England, with lots more stops planned around the globe. A brief quote from that article: Press a button and out wafts the cologne that French Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte once wore in battle. Press another and you are transported back six centuries to the perfume of Hungary's Queen Elizabeth, said to be so seductive that it enticed the King of Poland to propose marriage. For this is Heavenly Scent, a fascinating glimpse into the history, culture and romance of perfume over the last 2,500 years. In addition to famous scents to sniff, the display also covers designer crystal bottles and a look at the life of "Noses", as perfume designers are called. It also looks at the historical and cultural encouragements and taboos of perfume use, including how perfumes were created and used at various times in history, and the proper social etiquette followed when (and where) applying the scents for that time. It sounds fascinating! I don't have a schedule for the show, but I do hope it comes here! Perhaps if any of our UK members happen to get out to see it before it leaves Brighton, they'll report back to the list? - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:36:58 -0700 From: cynthia@caere.com Subject: Citations for fireproof clothing >>ubject: Fireproof clothing for historic cooking >> >> I'm looking for, an unable to find a citation on, >> wool petticoats or skirts or aprons as a fire >> retardant fabric. >Subject: burning wool Hi >I hope this is what you are looking for. The dressmakers >bible of fabrics (so I'm told) is Claire Shaeffer's "Fabric Sewing Guide". >... >You will be pleased to know that wool is the only listed fiber that is >called 'self-extinguishing'. Silk comes in second with a burns "..slowly, >sputters; usually self-extinguishing". > >Janie :) Ooops, guess I was unclear. I have already done the demonstration you suggest several times. It illustrates the danger of cooking around open fires to visitors & new volunteers at local museums. What I'm hoping for is a period citation out of a 19th century or earlier housekeeper's handbook, a cookbook, a ladies periodical or other household management reference that states this. Domestic management books for the upper crust are full of suggestions for liveried servants (English) or the stark black and white uniforms (American). They impress the lady of the house with the need for tidy starched white aprons and crisp caps. But they never mention providing Cook with a wool apron. What puzzles me is the sensible precaution of wearing wool aprons & petticoats is not mentioned in ANY of my dozens of similar references. Why not? --cin Cynthia@caere.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 17:06:54 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: TV Alert (USA; Historic Fashion Show on AMC) VCR Alert! :-) The American Movie Channel (AMC) is featuring a new show they developed called "The Hollywood Fashion Machine" on Tuesday, August 22. Showtimes for the hour-long show are 5:00 pm and (repeat showing) 9:30 pm, Pacific Time. TV Guide describes it as: Jacqueline Bisset hosts a "saga of fashion and film" that handsomely showcases Hollywood's impact on American clothing design. It features legendary Hollywood designers, costumes worn by Hollywood legends, and interviews with many of today's top designers. TV Guide says the show isn't particularly revealing (don't know if they knew they punned :-) but definitely features "clothes to die for!" It looks like it's an interesting and beautiful look at how Hollywood stole the spotlight from Paris and became the main source of inspiration for American clothes instead of French fashions. - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:41:03 -0600 From: hill@cs.uwyo.edu (Robin Hill) Subject: Academic Garb I see discussion about the topic of academic regalia, starting with the inquiry from Shirley Matheis. A year and a half ago, in the course of sewing my own graduation garments, I did some research and contributed some items of information to alt.sewing and to this list. In brief: Several people were interested in making the robe, and I believe that the consensus of suggestion was a choir robe pattern. My robe was an old one, and only needed conversion to Ph.D. style (velvet stripes, gathered sleeves, etc.). The doctoral hood was a much more demanding project. Failing to find a pattern for love or money, I drafted one, used it, and made it available to readers for the cost of copying and postage, viz., $3.00. (The offer still holds, I guess--I've been in Europe for a year, but I know where the thing is stored. Caveat: the hood is more complicated than you might think, and the pattern, naturally, comes with absolutely no guarantee.) I also have, somewhere, the list of books on academic regalia, many both erudite and entertaining, that I investigated, with the help of other contributors, and the remarks about them sent to h-costume. Available on request, assuming that I can put it all together. Robin Hill hill@cs.uwyo.edu hill@cs.buffalo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 23:24:37 -0400 From: FRRIBBONS@aol.com Subject: Introduction. I am a new subscriber and would like to introduce myself. I am French, my name is Edith Minne and I have started 8 years ago to bring to the USA my interest in European decorative Trimmings for Fashion and Design. My Company name is Renaissance Ribbons. I am presently importing exquisite ribbons and passementeries woven on Traditional french looms. Many designs date back to the 17 th century. We are working on a color brochure on a metallic selection of trimmings. Any suggestion on how to reach people that would be interested? Thank you! - -- FRRIBBONS@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 09:29:12 PDT From: Sue Wall Subject: 1835 Coat Help!! I am trying to insert sleeves into a 1835 tail coat I am making for my Husband. I keep getting little tiny tucks in the top when I ease the extra material into the seam. I tried gathering and then being very careful when I sewed the seam. I have done this 3 times and still get tucks, of course they are on the front where they are very visible. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I should mention that the sleeve is in two pieces and the seams are not top and bottom. Also the bottom seam and the curved seam in the back do not meet, should they? - ------------------------------------- Name: Sue Wall E-mail: Sue Wall Date: 08/19/95 Time: 09:29:12 This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 23:40:57 -0400 (EDT) From: BARBARASHU@delphi.com Subject: Victorian Hairstyles I will be attending a ball dressed in the style of England in the 1880's or so. I would like to do my hair which is shoulder length (and thick) in a style which more or less would have been worn during this period. Does anyone have any suggestions? Is there a book specifically on the history of hairstyles that I could refer to? The costume books I have generally do not show the hair from more than one view - I need to see the front and the back of the styles. Amazon Dry Goods has a book for which they are asking $98, out of my price range. Thanks for any help. Barbara ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:04:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Alice Morgan" Subject: Re: 1835 Coat If the material is wool, try using a tailors ham, a damp cloth and a lot of steam from the iron (but not a lot of pressure) on the sleave head to shape and form the shoulder cap and shrink/ease some of the fullness of the sleeve. Patterns of that time assumed you were doing this shapping and are oversized in the sleeve accordingly. Sue Wall said something close to this: > > Help!! I am trying to insert sleeves into a 1835 tail > coat I am making for my Husband. I keep getting little tiny > tucks in the top when I ease the extra material into the seam. > I tried gathering and then being very careful when I sewed the > seam. I have done this 3 times and still get tucks, of course > they are on the front where they are very visible. Any > suggestions would be appreciated. I should mention that the > sleeve is in two pieces and the seams are not top and bottom. > Also the bottom seam and the curved seam in the back do not > meet, should they? I'm not sure I understand this reference? Do you mean the seam line from the side/back piece's are not lining up with the seam of the sleave halves? If so, then yes, those two seam lines should not match up? Have you made a muslin to determing the best angle to attach the sleave to the body? Alice ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 22:15:49 -0400 From: Tracy023@aol.com Subject: Order of male dress Hi, Based on Janet Arnold and Waugh's The Cut of Men's Fashions, I'm trying to get an accurate picture of a rural gentleman's dress in England for the years around 1635. 1. Were the longish trunk hose likely to still be fashionable for wealthy rural gentlemen? 2. Do the metal hooks and eyes that fasten to the doublet and breeches actually hold up the breeches or is their function more for good appearance, to just keep the top from separating from the bottom? 3. What type of boots go best with this era? The square-toed, highish heeled, calf-length type with cuffs? 4. And what would be the proper hat? The tall black pointy ones or the big soft beret with the feather? 5. Is there such a thing as the male equivalent of a shift or some kind of body suit to keep body dirt and oils from getting the better clothes dirty? 6. Is there a preferred order for men in about 1635 to don their clothes and does anyone know what it would be? Thanks for your ideas. Tracy 023@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 22:24:12 -0400 From: Tracy023@aol.com Subject: 17th C Clerical Garb Hello, In case anyone is interested in what Puritan ministers wore in 1630 during hot weather, here are some notes from a manuscript written by one. He had been ill for quite sometime but now was well. "...I that have not gone without a Cap for many yeeres together, neither durst leave off the same, have now cast away my Cap and doe weare none at all in the day time [summer]: and whereas beforetime I cloathed my selfe with double cloathes and thicke Wastcoats to keepe me warme, even in the Summer time, I doe now goe as thin clad as any, onely wearing a light Stuffe Cassocke upon my Shirt and Stuffe Breeches of one thicknesse without Linings." When he refers to Stuffe, is he likely meaning light wool? Thanks. Tracy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 23:19:35 -0400 From: fy289@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Marilyn J Burian) Subject: Fireproof clothing for historic cooking cynthia@caere.com said: >Domestic management books for the upper crust .... impress the >lady of the house with the need for tidy starched white aprons and >crisp caps. But they never mention providing Cook with a wool >apron. What puzzles me is the sensible precaution of wearing wool >aprons & petticoats is not mentioned in ANY of my dozens of >similar references. >Why not? I am climbing on my "high horse". Pardon me if my tone of voice gets a little abrasive. :) Look at the AUDIENCE the books you are reading are ADDRESSED TO and the times they were written in. The lady of the house. These books dealt with the way things Looked, SOCIAL CORRECTNESS, APPEARANCES. These books were addressed to the Lady so that she could keep a exemplary house that would make HER HUSBAND LOOK GOOD because SHE did things so well. The emphasis was on social correctness not employee safety. Many costume books stress that this was the attitude of the day. That was one of the reasons men dressed their wives as best they could. It was a reflection on them, their financial status, their generosity, etc.. Servants were not people. They were SERVANTS. That was somewhere below the family pet. If a servant got injured, the lady of the house complained about HER bad luck (at having to find another servant (the old "poor me" good help is so hard to come by routine) and replaced the unlucky cook (without insurance, compensation, etc. No one to sue. Perhaps the fireproofness of wool was one of those things that everyone was just SUPPOSED TO KNOW somehow. Maybe there is some reference to this type of thing in women's magazines like Godey's, Graham's and Peterson's where much of the reading audience did her own housework by herself or with the help of only one or two "dailies" The way people were and are treated is one of my pet peeves. I have a friend whose husband owns a company. They just came back from China and were telling us how great business had it there in contrast to all the rules, regulations, and wages inflicted upon them in the U.S.. The example they used was the building of some roads. The peasants would come off their farms and sleep by the side of the road while building it. Then they go back to the farm. My friends thought this was great. As if these people enjoyed doing this and have no hopes or dreams of their own. No desire for luxury or comfort. I wonder how the business owner would like it if he had to leave home for the duration of building the road and sleep by the roadside. Ah, but he's the boss, he's above this kind of thing. He (the boss) deserves what he has because he works so hard. As if building a road is NOT hard work. If this attitude still prevails in our current enlightened society, what must it have been like way back when? Worry about the personal safety of Cook by providing her with a wool apron? You've got to be kidding me. They would probably have looked at you like you were crazy if you mentioned such a thing. I've been reading a lot about social conditions lately (in connection with historical costume). I'm sorry that I don't have documented to answer to your question. Another thing that I've been reading about is the fire hazard of the hoop skirt. Something like 3,000 people died in a church fire because men, women and children got tangled up in the women's hoops and couldn't get out. I believe I read that in one of Max Von Boem's books. Anyone else have documented examples death by fire due to hoops? Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 23:44:24 -0500 (CDT) From: c578168@showme.missouri.edu Subject: fireproof clothing Not only do these manuals define social ettiquette, but they are also primarily referring to the staff who will actually be seen. Premodern and early modern kitchens were not exactly gathering places. While the maids might need to be suitably attired in starched white, it is very possible that the cook wore wool, as it is unlikely that company would have ever met her. In reading source documents such as the one discussed, it is necessary to remember who would be seen, and therefore reflect on the lady of the house. While this is a little out of my period (I am a graduate student in medieval art history), I am fairly certain that in well-staffed homes the cook remained in the kitchen. Michelle Powell-Smith c578168@showme.missouri.edu ------------------------------ Date: 21 Aug 95 09:34:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Social Attitudes I must agree with Marilyn's clear analysis of social attitudes in the 19th century, although it did vary. Fiction is quite a good way of looking at social attitudes to servants, whether servants are mentioned, and which servants are mentioned (Trollope for example, hardly ever mentions servants)! Mrs Gaskell's Cranford novels are interesting on this and, a 'historical' novel but a good one, John Fowles' 'French Lieutenant's Woman' is very good on treatment of servants. It includes one character who treats her servants in precisely the way Marilyn described, but also one who would rather spend her time with the servant in the kitchen, but does so secretly because of social disapproval. It also contrasts the attitudes to servants (amongst other things) of a 'born' gentleman from a landed family, and one who had made money through trade. However, and I know Marilyn didn't say this, 19th century attitudes don't necessarily (or even often) apply to earlier periods. The medieval world view was very different. Lawrence Stone 'Man and the Natural World' is very good on this. For example, it was very important to differentiate between Man and Animals, and anything that crossed the line, treating animals like man, or men behaving like animals was strongly disapproved of or punished (bestiality got very nasty punishment, and preachers reserved some of their strongest fulminations for ladies who kept pet lap dogs - about the only kind of pet around) It is part of the point about witches' familiars - keeping cats, toads etc as pets was regarded as crossing the line. (Keith Thomas - Religion and the Decline of Magic) As for relationships between people, everyone was part of a 'chain of being' and their role in that 'tree of life' was one which God had chosen for them and they should do their best in that role. The key is a sense of interconnectedness - everyone depended on everyone else (and doing a domestic living history you get a strong sense of that!) so someone behaving badly, or not doing their job well, let the whole community down. Therefore the whole community had the right to comment on behaviour, and react to behaviour they disapproved of. For example, charivari or 'rough music' would be used against a wife beater, or an old man who had married a young wife. This continued into this century, in mining communities scabs and their families (a scab is someone who defied a strike call) were driven out of the community by rough music. The basic idea, the chain of being, is profoundly anti-democratic, and the medieval world was very uncomfortable with anyone who rose out of the station they were born to (a lot of the criticism of Wolsey (Henry VIII's minister) was that he was a butcher's son). However, reading the sources, I get a sense of mutual respect for people who do their job well. Relevant to this are the facts that this was a small (no more than 3 million in England) largely static and rural population - if your blacksmith was not very good, your chances of replacing him were minimal. Contempt, and fear, is directed towards those who do not fill the station God allocated well (eg the Earl of Oxford in the early 17th century) and 'masterless' people, the people outside the community, thieves, rogues and vagabonds. In the 19th century (and 20th?) the obverse of the respect for the 'self-made man' (mingled with the contempt for trade!) was contempt for the people who hadn't made it, like servants and small traders. They were 'failures', and must be so because of their laziness, or stupidity, and would try to take advantage of the successful (because virtuous) man. OK - off Hobbyhorse. I find, certainly in the UK amongst those who don't know much about history, an assumption that what is true in the 19th century is true for all the past (16th century mob-caps!?!) BTW in the 16th century Linen aprons are the most common (kirtles and gowns in wool), the only wool aprons that I can recall are worn by housekeepers (in black). Linen tends to smoulder as well. I have been told, and I have no sources for this, that after childbirth, the most common causes of death for women were hearth-deaths (kitchen fire) and drowning whilst fetching water. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:53:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Hope A. Greenberg" Subject: Re: Fireproof clothing for historic cooking > Perhaps the fireproofness of wool was one of those things that > everyone was just SUPPOSED TO KNOW somehow. Maybe there is some > reference to this type of thing in women's magazines like Godey's, > Graham's and Peterson's where much of the reading audience did her > own housework by herself or with the help of only one or two > "dailies" Funny you should mention Godey's! I'm working with it right now, digitizing some images and texts for the Web. I'll keep in mind the question of servants and report back. So far, in the stories I've read, they are almost invisible. One notion that I have gleaned from the texts, however, is that the matron of the house could be viewed, in our modern terms, as a sort of middle manager. Her business is to organize, at times assist, and generally manage the running of the household. This is not seen as a trivial task. Indeed many of the same organizational and personnel skills that we expect in modern management are expected of a woman in her household management. On a slightly different track, an interesting book on the changing role of women in the household that deals especially with the question of how "labor-saving devices" actually impacted women's lives is: "More work for mother : the ironies of household technology from the open hearth to the microwave" by Cowan, Ruth Schwartz, published by Basic Books, New York, 1983. - - Hope - ----------------- Hope Greenberg Hope.Greenberg@uvm.edu Academic Computing http://moose.uvm.edu/~hag Univ. of Vermont Come visit The Hall's latest addition: Burlington, VT 05405 Godey's Lady's Book ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #163 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!