From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #165 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, August 23 1995 Volume 3, Number 165 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: 10th cent. Men's Shirts Mr. Wrights's Shoes and the like Cut of the side seams on a bodice hoopskirts, firehazards, etc (Bay Area, CA) Interested in Historic Costumes? Re: Cut of the side seams on a bodice Re: 10th cent. Men's Shirts Re: Wish I knew when I was starting 19th c Servants (was Fireproof Clothing) Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts kid in a candy shop Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts "With Grace and Favor" book Re: "With Grace and Favor" book Corset making supplies Aprons Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 13:04:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Mary M Spila Subject: 10th cent. Men's Shirts After returning from Pennsic, I feel an overwelming desire to make a present for a friend; a shirt. His persona is a "10th Cent. Celt" (His words not mine.) I am looking for some information on a more correct style of shirt, also I am trying to find a color substitute for the saffron it would have been dyed with. Any suggestions will be truely appreciated. Mary S. or Marian of Clann Kyle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 13:48:28 EST From: cthulhu.engr.sgi.com!sgi.sgi.com!SMTPGWY!dlxibm!Liz_Jones Subject: Mr. Wrights's Shoes and the like Just have to jump on this little bandwagon, as I have been away and inspired by shoes and the making. Actually, making shoes is really not that difficult, as long as you can hook up with someone who has some experience. I have made my first pair of 16th century "hornschuhe" this year, with the help of Lisa Pearson, aka "Freydis Ragnarsdottir" in the SCA. It is true that some equipment is needed, but I have been inspired to pick up reference materials, and last week at Pennsic War bought a book by Douglas Strong that had a wonderful list of sources in the back. I also saw some lovely late 16th century, early 17th century shoes (approx. $160 ?) that were being sold by the Stuffy Purist (c/o Mike Tartaglio, 1 Evergreen Landing, MAys Landing, NJ 08330, 609-653-1271) They were made in England, and I have it on Freydis's word that they are authentically made. I did take some shortcuts on my own pair, and used nails, not pegs or sewing to attach the outer sole, but I understand that this relates to how much one wants to repair the things once the investment of time and money have been made. To wind up this reply, I would recommend to anyone that they can make their own shoes, as I have several other friends that have ventured in cobbling with nary a lick of experience, but only desire!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 17:02:59 -0400 (EDT) From: cpecourt@mhv.net Subject: Cut of the side seams on a bodice Hello Recently I was fitted for a bodice pattern using the good old duck-tape and t-shirt method. Now that I have the basic pattern I was told that side seams were not straight as I would have believed, but curved. Alas, my teacher did not have time to elaborate and told me to look in art books for seams to illustrate her point. I have been pouring over Janet Arnold's book of fashion for 1560 and also A history of Costume. None of the seams that I can see are curved.. anyone have any ideas on this??? Chantal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 15:13:38 -0400 From: fy289@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Marilyn J Burian) Subject: hoopskirts, firehazards, etc I saw some photographs in a costume book showing shop girls and factory workers wearing hoops in the 1860's. The industrial revolution made more goods available to more people. THe working class and middle class could have more of what the weathly had. The photographs showed shops that sold hoops. They were very interesting photographs. One wonders how they managed to work in hoops. I also read that many of the fabrics of the 1800's were thin and diaphanous and burned easily (like tulle). Also there were decorative details like hanging sashes (similar to hanging ends of sari's) that were easy to catch fire. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 15:37:38 -0700 From: Bill Westfield Subject: (Bay Area, CA) Interested in Historic Costumes? This is a plea for help! Canada College in Redwood City is offering a class on the History of Fashion on Monday's at 12:10 to 3:00. This class started on August 21st and in order for it to continue we need more students or they will cancel this class AGAIN! Please, please, please help!!! Canada College is at 4200 Farm Hill Blvd., Redwood City, CA 94061 415)306-3100 or 415)364-1212. Course Name: History of Fashion, CRN: 84682, Dept: FASH, Section: 150AA, Day: Mon., Time: 12:10-3:00, Room: 18-205, Instructor: Connie Ulasewicz, Units: 3.0; units will transfer to CSU. Dates: 8/21/95 - 12/14/95 Description: This course is a survey of fashions from ancient Egypt to present day with emphasis on the 19th and 20th centuries. (Basically, we're starting with today and working our way backwards and at the same time discussing the roots of the fashion as we go. I think this will be a very fun and educational class for anyone interested in the History of Fashion/Costumes; plus you'll get to network with others who have similar interests - live!) There will be no tests. Just one report and a notebook consisting of notes on lectures and clippings of fashions that interest you in relation to the current era of discussion. For more information you can call Ronda Chaney who is the head of the Fashion Department at Canada College at 415)306-3370. Please, we need your help by next Monday (8/28/95). Thank You for any help you can give! - --Mary Ann ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 18:29:21 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Cut of the side seams on a bodice Chantal wrote: :Hello : Recently I was fitted for a bodice pattern using the good old :duck-tape and t-shirt method. Now that I have the basic pattern I was :told that side seams were not straight as I would have believed, but :curved. Alas, my teacher did not have time to elaborate and told me to :look in art books for seams to illustrate her point. I have been pouring :over Janet Arnold's book of fashion for 1560 and also A history of :Costume. None of the seams that I can see are curved.. anyone have any :ideas on this??? Look in Juan d'Alcega's Tailor's Pattern Book 1589. Also, in Janet Arnold (1560-1620) pages 5, 7, 8, 9, 54, 56, 71, 75, 83, 85, 89, 114, and 121 show fitted doublets/jerkins (both sexes) which have curved seams. It looks as if often one side of the seam is straight while the other provides shaping and is slightly curved in the pattern. It looks straight when sewn. When I made the Spanish Mourning Gown from Alcega, I used flat pattern method to draft the bodice portion using another doublet pattern as the sloper. I was thrilled to find that my wierd curve (which I couldn't get rid of unless the seam was placed wrong) looked just like what they had in Alcega. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 19:44:27 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: 10th cent. Men's Shirts A T-tunic is appropriate. If your dying yourself try tumeric. Katrinn Kathy B ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:31:22 +1000 From: ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Re: Wish I knew when I was starting >From: MarieD0108@aol.com >3. Don't sew when you are really tired, or really upset. This is when >mistakes happen. If you must sew at these times, be careful and double check >everything. I have had to rip out so many things because I sewed too late >into the night... My household has two rules for 'sewing hells': 1. No cutting of fabric after 10pm 2. No use of mechanical implements after midnight. Now if we could only bring ourselves to stick to them, the night before an event.... Sarah **************************************************************************** ********************************************** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:23:01 -0700 From: cynthia@caere.com Subject: 19th c Servants (was Fireproof Clothing) Thanks to all those who responded, both publicly & privately on the "fireproof" thread! Another unusual place to look for all manner of commentary on garments, behaviour, living conditions is in the contemporary "travel books". I'm reading all the British travellers to 19th c USA. Isabella Bird's "A Lady's Life in the Rocky Mountains" (1870?), Charles Dickens "American Notes" (1848?) and Mrs Trollope's "Domestic Manners of the Americans" (1832?) have each been wildly entertaining. Isabella Bird is particularly given to describing details of dress for herself and those around her. Dickens' comments on a setdancing in the slave community is so much fun you wish you'd been there. Marilyn> Look at the AUDIENCE the books you are reading are ADDRESSED TO and the times they were written in. The lady of the house.... Servants were not people. They were SERVANTS. That was somewhere below the family pet. While your stmt is frequently true, not all of the "household management" manuals (pardon while I abbreviate to HMMs) are written to the "I earned my money the old-fashioned way: I inherited it" crowd. As the 19th progressed, more of these are addressed to the nouveau-riche. (Similarly we see the appearace of plated-silver tableware for those who'd like to live the part but cant yet afford the real thing. Bakelite mimics ivory in jewelry. Brass mimics gold, silver.) Michelle> While this is a little out of my area ... I am fairly certain that in well-staffed homes the cook remained in the kitchen. Seems to be, however many HMMs do put in asides for "Russian service for households with only one serving person". In several, there are list of tasks for "the maid of all work" vs. separate lists for the butler .. the cook ...the parlourmaid. One HMM mentions garments for the entire serving staff. Cook gets a "plain dress and several aprons" but no further details are given. Marilyn> Maybe there is some reference to this type of thing in women's magazines like Godey's, Graham's and Peterson's where much of the reading audience did her I've been thru most of the Godey's for most of the Civil War years and no such luck. Ditto Peterson's for 1868 and 1870. I recently found (& bought) a 1970s reprint of a 1715 butler's recipe book. The author, a butler, had written and given it to the lady of the house upon his retiring from service. While it had some fun, wierd and startling recipes (for drinks & for medicinal purposes), it mentioned nothing about a butler's wardrobe (rats!). It did make me wonder if there was a similar thing written BY A SERVANT targetting others intending to "go into service". Such a hypothetical source might just mention the detail of fireproof clothing & fire prevention. Caroline> Fiction is quite a good way of looking at social attitudes to servants, whether servants are mentioned, and which servants are mentioned (Trollope for example, hardly ever mentions servants)! Thanks for the tip, I'll give Eliz. Gaskell a try. I've just finished Mrs. Trollope's "Domestic Manners of the Americans". Per the book's Forward (by the annotator) the Trollop family was on the decline financially. Mme & several, but not all the kids, moved to Cleveland to open a business (it failed). Her son, Anthony Trollope (more famous for his novels than Mom for her travel books) seems to have remained with Dad in England. The Trollope family straits may account for her/his failure to mention much about servants. (I havent read all of Anthony T's books yet.) --cin cynthia@caere.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:42:58 -0400 From: Tracy023@aol.com Subject: Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts Just a bit of medical trivia to add to the hoop skirt fire discussion: In the days before antibiotics and modern burn treatments, according to some research I did earlier, most of the victims of fireplace burns, like the women whose skirts caught fire, died--not from burning to death per se, but from infection of their wounds. I don't have a medical background but apparently burns always have been the most difficult injuries to treat and the ones with the highest mortality rate. The most effective New England-area treatment from at least the 1600s onward was something known as a flax seed poultice which drew the fluids and--hopefully--infection, from the wound. About two years ago I met a woman who was a combat nurse during WWII. She said that even at the beginning of the war they used flax seed poultices on burns and hoped for the best. She said the arrival of antibiotics during the war revolutionized the treatment of burns. Tracy 023@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: 22 Aug 95 23:19:00 EST From: "Gina Balestracci" Subject: kid in a candy shop Last night I attended a party at Cora Ginsburg's house. A friend of mine has been living there for the past year and they were giving him going away party (he got a job at Indiana University). Anyway... The clothing and embroideries that she has at her home are incredible. I've been to her shop in New York, but seeing museum-quality eighteenth and ninteenth century clothing actually hanging in someone's house is truly amazing. I was able to look through a rack of eighteenth-century men's coats--some with matching vests--some heavily decorated and some perfectly plain. On that same rack were some banyans. Right next to this rack were some 19th-century women's clothes--dresses and capes--dressy ball gowns and more every-day cottons/linens. Pieces of embroidery were folded everywhere and some a few (very few, actually) were framed and hanging--I recognized items from the early 17th century through the 19th century. Cora's bed has crewel bed-hangings--antique ones--and the little pillow that was being used as a back support at one of the dining room chairs was a very tattered 19th-century-looking piece of embroidery. Most everything was stored very carefully, but I guess some of the tattered things that come along go into daily use. And she has complete runs of Godey's, Journal de la mode, and all the other early clothing journals. And every book *ever* written on textiles. We're talking about a *huge* Dutch colonial home overlooking the Hudson--filled with antiques, books, and clothing. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. It was definitely too much to absorb all at once, but I thought you folks would appreciate hearing about such a serendipitous visit. gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts in regards to dropping and rolling in a hoop skirt, i doubt it would work because even though the outside surface hits the floor the hoop keeps the garment bell shaped and therefore exposed to the air. Haven't you ever sat on the top hoop of your skirt(or seen someone do it) and had your skirt fly up? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 13:40:21 CDT From: "Cindy Abel" Subject: "With Grace and Favor" book Does anyone know where I might obtain a copy of the book. "With Grace and Favor : Victorian and Edwardian Fashion in America" Otto Charles Thieme, et.al. editors. Cincinnati : Cincinnati Art Museum c1993. Am shopping around for my annual Christmas present to self and came across mention of this book that is said to be mostly in color and scrumptious to behold. Many thanks. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:00:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Julie Cheetham Subject: Re: "With Grace and Favor" book "With Grace and Favor", Otto Thieme et al., published by Cincinnati Art Museum is indeed a book you will find useful for your library. In addition to many full color photographs of exquisite examples from the Museum's outstanding costume collection, there are several in-depth essays on aspects of costume during this era. The book can be purchased through the Cincinnati Museum of art gift shop--they do mail orders if you have a charge card. I don't have them phone number at work, but it can be obtained from Information. Julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 12:29:34 -0700 From: unicorn@calweb.com (joan broneske) Subject: Corset making supplies I am trying to find some sources where I can buy steel boning, busks, lacing, etc. Preferably I would like to find something in the Sacramento, California area. If not, then mail order. Thanks for all of your help. Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 13:16:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Aprons Unless I've missed something on the discussion of aprons, which is of course more than possible, is the fact that aprons were also meant to protect the wearer from evil spirits/influences. In paintings in early Danish churches (13c +) there are pictures of women wearing aprons both front and back. Festive folk costume (as opposed to everyday wear) throughout Europe features very fancy aprons which certainly were never meant to be used for work situations. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 09:14:00 EST From: "Hicks, Melissa" Subject: Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts >in regards to dropping and rolling in a hoop skirt, i doubt it would work >because even though the outside surface hits the floor the hoop keeps the >garment bell shaped and therefore exposed to the air. Haven't you ever >sat on the top hoop of your skirt(or seen someone do it) and had your >skirt fly up? I'm confused !! I have created a mid-16th century bell (hooped) farthingale. I often sit on it incorrectly and never have had the entire thing fly up? Maybe I created the farthingale incorrectly? Melissa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 17:32:05 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts Kimberly Smay wrote: :in regards to dropping and rolling in a hoop skirt, i doubt it would work :because even though the outside surface hits the floor the hoop keeps the :garment bell shaped and therefore exposed to the air. Haven't you ever :sat on the top hoop of your skirt(or seen someone do it) and had your :skirt fly up? One side will be up, but that still leaves the other side down. Actually, my hoop tends to go side ways when I lay down or sit in it. I have seen people have their hoops fly up, but not when they aren't pretending to be Carol Burnett. Also, at least the up side would be away from the body. Kat : Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #165 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!