From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #166 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, August 25 1995 Volume 3, Number 166 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Warning, Off Topic: Need Bay Area Information 10th cent Men's Shirts Re: Aprons Bay Area Info Re: patterns off pictures? Re: Aprons RE: Social Attitudes Catalogs Re: Cut of the side seams on a bodice Off-Topic - St. Louis fabric/trim stores Re: Wish I knew when I was starting Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts Mastiffs and Farthingales Re: Radio 4 insults Re: Catalogs RE: Social Attitudes Re: Cut of the side seams on a bodice Steel spring boning Re: Social Attitudes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 21:25:24 -0600 (MDT) From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Warning, Off Topic: Need Bay Area Information Hi There, My husband recently took a job in the Palo Alto area. I'm still here in New Mexico since I only have two more semesters to get my degree and because it all happened *really* fast. So, I'm interested in exchanging email with anyone who is in that area who would be willing to talk SCA, costuming, or colleges with Theatre Depts. out there. thanks, Carol * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Unless you are the lead dog, /\_/\ The view is always the same." > < > ^ ^ < source: bumper sticker >(_o_)< U ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 09:10:48 BST From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Subject: 10th cent Men's Shirts >I feel an overwelming desire to make a present >for a friend; a shirt. His persona is a "10th Cent. Celt" (His words not >mine.) > >I am looking for some information on a more correct style of shirt, also I am >trying to find a color substitute for the saffron it would have been dyed with. If you want a truly well documented shirt for the period you should look at the Viborg shirt. This is a 10th Century linen shirt which was recovered from a damp site where preservation conditions were almost ideal. Much of the shirt survived including the seams, There have been several articles published on the construction of this shirt giving a lot of detail right down to the details of the seam construction. However this shirt was of plain white undyed linen, and probably never was dyed. (Furthermore it came from Denmark whuch one would scarcely call celtic!) If you wish to make a yellow tunic I would suggest using a different pattern & making the tunic of wool. Tenth century illustrations of men wearing tunics show wide skirts, unfortunately few tunics survive so it is largely a matter of guesswork and extrapolation working out how these were done. On the basis of what tunics do survive from this period I usually make 10th century tunics with a pair of triangular gussets in each side stretching from around about the waist to the hem. the hem is at about the knee when the tunic is hitched up slightly over the belt. This style of tunic appears in art throughout Europe. Many re-enactors avoid wearing the correct type of tunic for the period they portray because early medieval tunics with their long skirts bear an unfortunate resemblance to modern dresses. In an attempt to look masculine by modern standards hemlines are shortened to give a modified version of a modern T shirt (They get dubbed "Bum-freezers" in many of the British re-enactment societies). Accordingly before you put a lot of time & effort into making a tunic with authentic long skirts I would suggest sounding out your friend to see if it would ever be worn! Unfortunately I can't quote you references at present as I am in the middle of a house pourchase & currently most of my notes & refernce materials are in store. If you are not in a hurry I could probably let you have some references mid to late september. If your friend is trying for an Irish persona I have notes I took at a lecture on early medieval Irish costume which might be of some help to you. For a yellow dye my favourite would be weld, both because it is a documented dye of the time & because it gives a strong light fast dye. I doubt that a tenth century european would have such easy access to turmeric as to weld Certainly it grows in profucion in my part of England (Hertfordshire) and I have spotted it popping up all over these islands. Saffron was very expensive in the past just as it is today, so unless your friend was quite rich he may not have sported a saffron shirt. The dye from Saffron is quite disgustingly bright: it yields a real day-glo yellow so if you are seeking to replicate it avoid earthy ochre tones. I would also avoid onion skins which are easily come by & therefore much recommended as a dye, but they are not at all light fast & soon fade. Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:09:44 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: Aprons On Wed, 23 Aug 1995, Irene Joshi wrote: > Unless I've missed something on the discussion of aprons, which is of course > more than possible, is the fact that aprons were also meant to protect > the wearer from evil spirits/influences. In paintings in early Danish > churches (13c +) there are pictures of women wearing aprons both front > and back. Festive folk costume (as opposed to everyday wear) throughout > Europe features very fancy aprons which certainly were never meant to > be used for work situations. > Two anthropological observations bearing on this point are: 1) studies of gypsies mention that gypsy women wear aprons in dealing with non-gypsies to ward off contamination. The aprons are removed in the company of gypsy men, who are 'pure'. The second, found in a book called 'Gifts and Poison' (I can't remember the author's name) mentions that rural French housewives (who are suspected of laziness or worse if they leave their houses) go out to shop wearing aprons, to show that their mission is an urgent one and they have no time to socialize. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 95 09:06:14 -0700 From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Bay Area Info For Carol Newby: Would you post your email address? It wasn't included in your message reguesting info about the Bay Area. There are several Bay Area residents on the list and a lot of costuming activities. I'm sure you'll get an abundance of email -- and invitations to attend upcoming events! Sally snorton@us.oracle.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 11:32:12 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: patterns off pictures? You wrote: > Is there anyone out there who makes, creates patterns off of a picture? > I recently obtained a photo vintage 1920 of ... > ... I would like to recreate that costume if at all possible. I've done this once and it worked out quite well. What I did was take the picture with me to the sewing store (and the local thrift shops) and scoured the available patterns looking for similar garments. I wanted to reproduce a 1915 skirt and blouse (waist). I was able to find a remarkably similar skirt pattern that required only minor modifications (and lengthening) to be complete, and three blouse patterns that contained similar details to the blouse I wanted to reproduce. My garment photo was only a front view, but there was a line drawing of the back view to help me know what to do for that side too. Armed with my pattern pieces and several pattern drafting books from the library, I was able to come up with a master pattern that produced a garment amazingly (to me :-) similar-looking to the original. I also read up on the typical details of the garments of that year/era, and looked at many picture books for garments of that era too. That helped me determine what details were pattern details, and which ones were actually embellishment details. For example, I discovered that it was most likely that the elaborate ribbon trim on the neckline was actually three separate ribbon pieced hand-sewn on after the garment had been put together. Also, the pouching effect at the waist and the sleeves were most likely due to being attached to either a tie or to a lining. As well, I found out that garments from that era could have openings in almost any place, so I did a "best guess" as to where my garment actually opened; I used the most convenient (to me) placement of openings. So with a bit of research you should be able to duplicate your 1920 garment. It won't be the easiest thing you've ever done, but it's not impossible to do either! Good luck! Let us know how it turns out. - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 15:56:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: Re: Aprons I recently read Women's Work; The first 20,000 years by Elizabeth Wayland Barber. She talks about Aprons that have both fronts and backs fairly extensively dating from 14th century b.c. In eastern europe especially similiar aprons are still worn and have associations with fertility and protection. the book is about textiles in general, but is fascinating to anyone in costuming as well. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 17:03:12 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Social Attitudes | preachers reserved | some of their strongest fulminations for ladies who kept pet lap dogs - | about the only kind of pet around) In his Description of England, Harrison wrote about mastiffs that were kept indoors and so gentle that children could play with and climb upon their backs to ride them. I would hardly call a mastiff a lap dog. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Aug 1995 17:35:27 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Catalogs 8/24/95 5:31 PM Catalogs I belive someone was asking for an SCA-specific catalog about a week ago. I have a copy of The Chivalry Sports Renaissance Catalog Magazine, which comes out of Tucson, AZ. They sell capes, hoods, men's shirts, jerkins, Irish Dresses, tights, tunics, chemises, hats, etc. They also sell books, tankards, belts, belt pouches, SCA-related books, some Folkwear Patterns, and some tapes. Orders to 800-730-KING, Inquiries 1-520-722-1255 I've never purchased from them, so I can't vouch for their wares or service. Carole Newson-Smith (SCA: Cordelia Toser) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:24:06 -0400 From: MarieD0108@aol.com Subject: Re: Cut of the side seams on a bodice I haven't seen curved seams on those. I have seen seams which were more towards the back, not right at the bottom of the underarm. I am wondering which way the seams were curved. Could you explain more? Marie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:24:36 -0400 From: MarieD0108@aol.com Subject: Off-Topic - St. Louis fabric/trim stores I will be in St. L ouis for 5 days next month, and wanted to take advantage of that to shop around for fabrics, trims, and stuff. Anyone willing to part with information on stores large and small for me to explore? Marie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:24:13 -0400 From: MarieD0108@aol.com Subject: Re: Wish I knew when I was starting Man - those are good rules! I should post those somewhere around here, and see if we really abide by them. How often do the rules get 'bent'? ;-) Marie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 22:24:34 -0400 From: MarieD0108@aol.com Subject: Re: Firehazard of hoop skirts I too have the 16th century farthingale (6 hoop, cage style) and have never had it fly up. Perhaps the weight of the skirts prevents it from flying, but it will collapse to the sides regardless of how the hoops are dispersed. Marie ------------------------------ Date: 25 Aug 95 08:35:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Mastiffs and Farthingales Re: Edward's comment Mastiffs were hunting dogs - known for their grip. It is well documented that although most hunting dogs were kept in the kennels, a few favoured beasts (usually elderly or breeding bitches) would be allowed in the house, and, if safe, presumably played with by the children of the house. I would suggest these come somewhere between 'working' dog status of most dogs and the 'pet' status of the lap dogs - which had no other function. Harrison is remarking on these mastiffs as unusual. Re: Marie's farthingale I too have worn 16th century farthingales and never had problems with them flying up (including falling over in them). Are crinolines constructed differently? BTW There was a wonderful radio programme on last night on Radio 4 - did any of the other UK people hear it? Called ' A Poxe in your nose' it was about 16th century insults and slander, based on church court records, and therefore the words and actions of ordinary people, carpenters and alewives. Some brilliant insults 'it would take 40/- of bread to stop the mouths of those who say as I do'; 'it is no honest woman's part to put her hand in a mans codpiece, take out the privy member and kiss it and swear she would rather have that than her husbands', 'if you are not with child, you have had as many chances as there are stones in this yard'! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 08:01:44 -0400 From: Tracy023@aol.com Subject: Re: Radio 4 insults Hi Caroline, Boy, am I jealous. Would love to have heard that program. I wonder if I could somehow get a transcript.....Hmmm. Thank you for sending that along. Tracy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 07:19:54 +0000 From: "Jennifer Kubenka" Subject: Re: Catalogs On 24 Aug 95 at 17:35, Carole Newson-Smith wrote: > 8/24/95 5:31 PM > Catalogs > I belive someone was asking for an SCA-specific catalog about a week > ago. I have a copy of The Chivalry Sports Renaissance Catalog > Magazine, which comes out of Tucson, AZ. > Orders to 800-730-KING, Inquiries 1-520-722-1255 > > I've never purchased from them, so I can't vouch for their wares or > service. > Carole Newson-Smith > (SCA: Cordelia Toser) > I have purchased some books from them, and was very pleased with their prompt service. I haven't bought anything else from them, though. The books arrived in perfect condition, and everything was clearly marked on the invoice. Jennifer D, Kubenka Series Authority/Monographs Cataloger Fondren Library Southern Methodist University Dallas, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 08:51:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: RE: Social Attitudes On Thu, 24 Aug 1995, Edward Wright wrote: > Date: Thu, 24 Aug 95 17:03:12 TZ > From: Edward Wright > To: csy20688@ggr.co.uk, h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu > Subject: RE: Social Attitudes > > > | preachers reserved > | some of their strongest fulminations for ladies who kept pet lap dogs - > | about the only kind of pet around) > > In his Description of England, Harrison wrote about mastiffs that were > kept indoors and so gentle that children could play with and climb upon > their backs to ride them. > > I would hardly call a mastiff a lap dog. > Quite right, but ladies didn't keep mastiffs, men did. The preaching was additionally because the ladies and nuns would bring their "pets" to church service with them and feed them bits of wastrel instead of listening to the sermons. Dogs, birds, ferrets and even monkeys were brought and annoyed the priests to no end. (Note, everything I say here I can only reference to 14th c. England) Lap dogs were a fad with the women in the late fourteenth and fifteenth centuries with comments that women were nursing them at their breasts instead of children being made by a particularly critical observer. In a book on nuns and seclusion written by a Bishop or someone else qualified he admonished women for their pets, and recommended the cat as a perfect pet that is quiet, not-fawning, and utilitarian. This is the first mention I have of someone recommending cats as pets even in the century of the Great Plague when they were drowned by the thousands for spreading disease. Lords treated their mastiffs, greyhounds, horses, or other exotic animals with equivalent favoritism. Dogs were given kennels with running water, cleaned everyday with fresh hay, and eating white bread soaked with milk. They were given massages and summer/winter quarters depending on their value. They did love their animals despite the fact that humans and animals shouldn't be confused. Oh and bestiality was a venal sin, but not the worst, and punishment was (of course) always worse for a woman committing it than a man, and young unmarried men were given particularly light penances since it was "understandable." For actual penances appied, please e-mail if you're really that interested. ;-) Thank you all, Teresa > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:02:01 -0400 From: eliz@world.std.com (Elizabeth Lear) Subject: Re: Cut of the side seams on a bodice Subject: Re: Social Attitudes Reply to: RE>>Social Attitudes Edward Wright wrote: :In his Description of England, Harrison wrote about mastiffs that were :kept indoors and so gentle that children could play with and climb upon :their backs to ride them. : :I would hardly call a mastiff a lap dog. Edward, I don't know Harrison. When did he write this? Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #166 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!