From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #167 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Saturday, August 26 1995 Volume 3, Number 167 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Social Attitudes RE: Social Attitudes amazon drygoods Two Questions Re: Radio 4 insults RE: h-costume bibliograpy -- recommended reading RE: kid in a candy shop 1880'S HAIRSTYLES Mysterious books Re: 1880'S HAIRSTYLES Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #166 Re: h-costume bibliograpy -- recommended reading 18/19th C source on Net Re: 1880'S HAIRSTYLES ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 09:45:13 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: Re: Social Attitudes Near the end of the 16th Century. I don't have the book with me, so I can't give the exact date. - ---------- | From: "Carole Newson-Smith" | To: ; Edward Wright; | Subject: Re: Social Attitudes | Date: Friday, August 25, 1995 9:09AM | | Reply to: RE>>Social Attitudes | Edward Wright wrote: | :In his Description of England, Harrison wrote about mastiffs that were | :kept indoors and so gentle that children could play with and climb upon | :their backs to ride them. | : | :I would hardly call a mastiff a lap dog. | | Edward, I don't know Harrison. When did he write this? | | Carole Newson-Smith | | | | | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 09:55:49 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Social Attitudes | Quite right, but ladies didn't keep mastiffs, men did. The preaching was | additionally because the ladies and nuns would bring their "pets" to | church service with them and feed them bits of wastrel instead of | listening to the sermons. Dogs, birds, ferrets and even monkeys were | brought and annoyed the priests to no end.... In a book on nuns and | seclusion written by a Bishop or someone else qualified he admonished | women for their pets, and recommended the cat as a perfect pet that is | quiet, not-fawning, and utilitarian. Well, if men kept mastiffs (in the house, where they obviously were not used for hunting); ladies kept birds, ferrets, and even monkeys; and nuns kept cats, then it certainly seems that lap dogs were not the only pet around. This points to one of the key considerations in historical research. When an author says something like, "there were no X in the eleventeenth Century," what he really means is "there were no X that I know of." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 14:43:25 -0400 From: Zachary Kessin Subject: amazon drygoods Does anyone have the address for the Amazon Dry Goods catalog? I find myself in need of one and dont have the address handy. Zach (Guiliam in the SCA) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 17:48:54 -0400 From: "Laurie E. W. Brandt" Subject: Two Questions If this is the secone time you have seen this please delete. I posted it origionaly to h-costume@lunch.cmu.edu and it bounced. Laurie E. W. Brand I have two questions 1. Are the Patterns in Tailor's Pattern Book 1589 by Alcega as easy as they seem? I would like to try the Christening clock of silk, f.54a. has anyone any experance doing up any of the clothes from this book? 2.In Costume & Fashion Volume three by H. Norris, 1943, p513. He quotes Brantome, who is talking about a portrait of Mary Stuart in her native dress. Norris at the writing of this work, could not find out if this portrait still exists. Has anyone seen it? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 17:15:32 GMT From: paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Radio 4 insults In message <950825080143_62981474@emout04.mail.aol.com> Tracy023@aol.com writes: > Hi Caroline, > Boy, am I jealous. Would love to have heard that program. I wonder if I > could somehow get a transcript.....Hmmm. Thank you for sending that along. > Tracy I must admit to some mystification as to why anyone on the Home Programme on the wireless would wish to insult someone on this group -- until I realised that it was a reference to the programme, broadcast last night, entitled "The pox in thy nose". I believe that a friend (who isn't on this list) recorded it so, if the BBC will not or cannot sell a transcript, I may be able to transcribe it, or some of it. If I can obtain a transcript, I may be able to scan it, or post the address whence such may be obtained. I beg to remain, Yr. servant, Paul C. Dickie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 16:01:41 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: | I recently bought a roll of spring steel for boning. The woman | who soldit too me said to cover the cut ends with Dip It. I didn't | purchass this product from her as she wanted $20 for the can. I went to | the hardware store and inquired about a laquer based product to seal my | ends. I bought an EPoxy strengthened paint like product for repairing | tubs etc that is waterproof. They also had Dip It, but this stuff was | pink and plastic like.. Is that what Dip It is? I thought it was a white | enamle type substance... The generic name for what you want is "tool dip." "Dip It" is a brand name. Tool dip is identical to bone dip except for the price (much less) and the color. It's used to dip tools so that they don't get lost, so it usually comes in bright, neon colors. I've never heard of it coming in pink, but maybe they're doing yuppie pastel colors to cater to the home-improvement craze. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 17:37:04 -0700 From: cynthia@caere.com Subject: h-costume bibliograpy -- recommended reading Gentlepersons, I have a humble request as the time approaches for a New and Improved h-costume bibliography. Most of you know that the last two years of books recommended by the members of h-costume exists along with the FAQ on Diane Close's machine. Before I post the version II, I'd like to request the sundry participants to identify, comment upon or classify some of the books that are in the "Mysterious" category. (Funny thing my engr lab doesnt have an on-line card catalog.) Identification info: full author, ISBN & publisher. Useful comments might include: what broad time & locale or social group the book covers, whether the book is full of errors, great color pictures, good or bad research, or patterns drafted from originals. Classification: general category (spanning many centuries), medieval europe, Ancient World, Victorian England, Mediaval Japanese, Han Dynasty, Accessories, Museum Catalog, Other Media (includes periodicals, microfiche). Remember "not appropriate" is OK, too. The bibliography subject is: "Frequently Recommended Books for Researching the Historical Costume of All Ages and Places" --cin Cynthia@caere.com MYSTERIOUS (w/o complete information): - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 400 Years of Mennonite Dress, Melvin Gingrich Book of Costume, Davenport English Icon, Roy Strong's The Fantastical Folly of Fashion: The English Stocking Knitting Industry, 1500-1700 Fashion, Costume, and Uniform series, Victoria and Albert Museum. Hispanic Costume, Ruth Anderson The Language of Clothes, Alison Lurie Lives of the Saints, (possibly) by Lynne Lawner, possibly the publisher is Rizolli International Publications. Silk Textiles of Spain, Florence Lewis May Sutter's Fort, David Rickman, et al, rumored to be available thru the Calif State DPR, Sutter's Fort, Sacramento Tudor and Jacobean Portraits, Roy Strong's in a 2-part series Textiles in America, Florence Montgomery. Recommended for 18th c fabric research. A Visual History of Costume: The Sixteenth Century, Jane Ashelford Women's Work; The First 20,000 Years, Elizabeth Wayland Barber. She talks about Aprons that have both fronts and backs fairly extensively dating from 14th century b.c. In eastern europe especially similiar aprons are still worn and have associations with fertility and protection. the book is about textiles in general, but is fascinating to anyone in costuming as well. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 23:46:13 PDT From: Fred Meyer Subject: RE: kid in a candy shop Gina, I'm jealous, what great fun it must have been to visit Cora's home. For me and those reading h-costume can you tell us more about Cora Ginsburg. I have one book of hers, I believe it was The Hat Book, and I know she is famous in the world of Vintage clothing, but I have not come across her background and how she achieved all her knowledge. Would love to know more. ------------------------------ Date: 26 Aug 95 00:39:42 EDT From: Agnes Gawne&Jeff Hamill <74150.375@compuserve.com> Subject: 1880'S HAIRSTYLES On Saturday BarbaraShu asked.... >>I will be attending a ball dressed in the style of England in the 1880's or so. I would >>like to do my hair which is shoulder length (and thick) in a style which more or less >>would have been worn during this period. Does anyone have any suggestions? >> Is there a book specifically on the history of hairstyles that I could refer to? The >>costume books I have generally do not show the hair from more than one view - I >>need to see the front and the back of the styles. I looked through my library and it seems that the 1880 hairstyles are rather simple. Hair pulled back into a bun or knot, hair by the face in waves or curls then dressed with some ornament (beads, pearls, ribbons, aigrette of feathers) for the evening. I don't know of any book that has all the front and back hairstyles for this period but I do have a few suggestions. Civil War Ladies: Fashion and Needle-Arts of the Early 1860's Published by R.L. Shep P.O. Box 688 Mendocino, CA 95460 ISBN number 0-914046-09-8 This book focuses on the early 1860's and includes excerpts from Peterson's Magazines and the Campbell;s __Self Instructor in the Art of Hairwork__. Some of this hairwork information is real how-to instructions with drawings of 1860's hairstyles; including working in swatches and hairpieces with your own hair. This is the only place I have seen actual Victorian instructions in hairstyle. They are really simple to do if you use hairpieces. ( I don't know how apropos they would be for the 1880's but I'm sure there were a lot of women wearing 1960's hairstyles in the 1980s!) Another very useful book is: English Women's Clothing in the Nineteenth Century C. Willett Cunnington Originally published bu Faber & Faber 1937 Re-published by Dover 1990 ISBN 0-486-26323-1 This is a paperback volume like most Dover Publications. It is quite a large book, 460 pages. It has a section at the end of each decade illustrating hats and headdress. In the text immediately following the drawing there are actual descriptions of coiffures. for 1880 the paragraph is: HAIR 'At present the hair is dressed very simply and close to the head showing all its outlines; false hair is not now patronised' Either in large coils worn low, the front waved, or a large knot on the crown, the front combed back. COIFFURE ...evening Dinner caps of marabou feathers, pinned on, or silk caps either turban shaped or covered with beads, pearls, etc. For balls, three bands of beads, ribbon or velvet over the front, or a floral wreath at the back. for 1884 the description is... HAIR Parted across from ear to ear; the front with rolls or curls on the forehead; behind, a knot on the crown with the back hair turned up and twisted round it and pinned. COIFFURE Evening, a flower or aigrette on the side. Caps worn by the elderly. These are small, trimmed with narrow ribbon for day and flowers or marabou for evening. The descriptions are quite clear and the book is a treasure trove of information. My copy cost about 25 dollars US. Another book I highly recommend for this kind of information is: The Mode in Hats and Headdress by R. Turner Wilcox Published by Charles Scribner's Sons, New York 1946 Unfortunately this is not now in print, as far as I know. I was fortunate enough to copy some of it before the San Francisco Library's copy was stolen. I know of at least one member of this list who has an original copy of it. It has line drawings of various hairstyles of all periods from Ancient Egyptian to 1944. It only has one pose of each style but it is, nevertheless, quite complete and very inspiring. If you see a copy of it, buy it. I'm sure someone on this list (me?) would buy it. I hope this has helped. If you need more book references, let me know. Agnes Gawne 74150.375@Compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 11:41:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Hoover, Kathleen M" Subject: Mysterious books Due to financial constraints, my costume collection is exceedingly small. However, as to "The History of Costume" by Milia Davenport, my Costume History Professor found it important and comprehensive enough to select it for our class text. At that precise moment, 1991, it went out of print and alas, I never got a personal copy. She still does basically teach from it, giving us masses of notes instead. I have seen it, as there is a copy in the U.'s Reference Library, and from what I can remember it is quite extensive, covers from prehistory to the early twentieth century, and is amply illustrated. I'd still love to find a copy, if someone would like to sell. Hope this helps, Kathy Hoover ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 12:59:23 -0400 (EDT) From: BARBARASHU@delphi.com Subject: Re: 1880'S HAIRSTYLES The information you have given is not only helpful, but very, very, fascinating. I, for one, do not think one can ignore correct hairstyles or makeup in creating a look of a given period. It was I who posted the original question on Victorian hairstyles. I was a bit shocked by the flame that was posted. But before I had a chance to feel badly about it, so many of you came to my defense. To all of those who did, and to those who answered my original question via E-mail, a thousand thanks. You are great people and this *is* a terrific group. I would enjoy reading more here about hairstyles, makeup, and accessories. The sewing questions are fine, but the list would get boring if it were limited to only those. I also have enjoyed reading about the customs behind the styles. So many of you are well informed and I appreciate your sharing your expertise. Will I get flamed for writing this? Is it wrong to expose myself as a human being on this list rather than just a costumer? Barbara ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:06:05 -0400 From: Gaelscot@aol.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #166 On August 23, jennyb commented that in many reinactment groups, men wouldn't wear early-period tunics of the correct length (long), instead prefering short tunics charmingly nicknamed "bum-freezers" in the UK. I just wanted to tell any wavering men out there, especially those in the UK I suppose, that long tunics are DEFINITELY masculine looking. In our area, many men of all different builds wear knee- or mid-shin-length tunics, and they do not look in the least effeminate. There's something about the long folds of a robe that makes women look feminine and men look masculine -- I think it accentuates the differences in the torso area. (Completely off the historical end, does anyone remember a Star Trek The Next Generation episode where Captain Picard wore a dress uniform that looked like Norman clothing? He wore some type of hose or tight trousers and a long tunic-jacket, fitted in the torso, and looked smashing. Unfortunately, that was the one and only appearance of that uniform). On another subject entirely, I'd just like to put my two-cents in about the hoop/farthingale controversy. I have one garment I use for both, I admit it. It's got three hoops, and when I use it for 19th century dancing I use all three and wear a special short petticoat over it that makes it bell out nicely rather than fall like a cone. When I use it as a farthingale, I take the top hoop out (and sometimes the middle one too). I find that it behaves quite differently. With the ball gown, made of a light cotton, it does sometimes fly up if I'm not careful. With the Tudor gown, it stays in place. I attribute this to the much heavier weight of the garmet -- a brocade underskirt and a pleated corduroy overskirt (meant to look like velveteen from a distance). One of these days, I'm going to make a real farthingale. I think the hoop is too wide, even though I fiddle with this very versatile cotton skirt purchased 8 years ago for my wedding gown, and manage to get the bottom ring smaller. But in the meantime, it works very well. Perhaps this might shed some light on the subject? Gail Finke ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:05:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: Re: h-costume bibliograpy -- recommended reading Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years;Women, Cloth and Society in Early Times by Elizabeth Wayland Barber published by W.W.Norton & Company, New York, 1994. ISBN 0-393-03506-0. The book is not a costume text but a history of textiles and their production up until the golden age of greece or there abouts. She does talk about clothing as it relates to her overall topic. It is also a fascinating and surprisingly easy book to read. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 21:16:41 -0400 From: KenDawe@aol.com Subject: 18/19th C source on Net Just discovered that Jason Townsend & Sons, source of clothing, accoutrements, books, etc. for 18th and 19th Century re-enactors, has an email address (jastown@halcyon.com) AND a World Wide Web page which includes their catalog. http://www.jastown.com/townsend/newhome.htm I've heard (on alt.history.living) that their "clothing is schlocky", but "papa needs a new pair of {period} shoes", and period spectacle frames as well. If your system won't handle the GIFs they include of selected items (mine doesn't) order the catalog via email. Also if you have access to the Web,. check out http://reenactor.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 21:23:34 -0400 From: fy289@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Marilyn J Burian) Subject: Re: 1880'S HAIRSTYLES Reply to message from BARBARASHU@delphi.com of Sat, 26 Aug > I, for one, do not think one can ignore >correct hairstyles or makeup in creating a look of a given >period. It was I who posted the original question on Victorian >hairstyles. I was a bit shocked by the flame that was posted. >But before I had a chance to feel badly about it, so many of >you came to my defense. Will I get flamed for writing this? Is it wrong to >expose myself as a human being on this list rather than just a >costumer? I know that I should let the rude post drop, but when I first saw it, my initial reaction was *WHERE* DID *THAT* COME FROM? I STILL feel that way. I think most of us understand that historic costume includes, hair, shoes, make up, underwear, social customs, ets. You seem to think that is was something you posted that started it. We don't know what upset that person. I'm having a hard time framing my thoughts. What it boils down to is I would hate to think that someone might not post some tidbit of costume trivia for fear of being flamed. We can't all read every book. Each person brings their own interests and experiences to this group and that is what makes it so special. My goodness, I'm even interested in aprons now. > I would encourage people to keep posting on various subjects and encourage others to read most of it. You never know when some bit of knowledge may come in handy even if it doesn't interest you now. Will you get flamed for being a person? The PERSON is important because our personality influences our costumes. It is all interwoven. It is part of a "persona". I enjoy seeing personalites revealed. Long live this group!!!!! ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #167 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!