From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #168 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, August 28 1995 Volume 3, Number 168 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: 1880'S HAIRSTYLES 1880s hairstyles Sizes and tight lacing What can a corset really do? Freshwoman introduction Bleaching unbleached linen Re: Mysterious books Re: Mysterious books mystery books bleaching linen Re: Mysterious books Re: Mysterious books Elizabethan shoe maker ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 08:04:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: 1880'S HAIRSTYLES Somehow, and I'm not sorry that I did, I missed the flame. Let me state that in my opinion, costuming is more than just the clothes that are worn. It includes hair and it's arrangement (including facial hair), makeup, deportment/social habavior, accessories such as purses/handbags/pouches, jewelry, etc. Clothes are not worn in a vacumn, and without the other pieces to go with it, the clothes are not going to be "right". Personally, I enjoyed reading about the 1880's hairdos. A fair amount is posted here on subjects that I am NOT interested in - I have to go through the great trouble of hitting delete. Somehow I survive. I would rather have a lot of information available that I might not want, than not enough. Jaelle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 17:12:08 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: 1880s hairstyles Re Barbara's question about 1880s hairstyles--I've recommended these books before, but--the best hairstyle books I know of are _Fashions in Hair: The First Five Thousand Years_, by Richard Corson, published by Peter Owen in London in 1980. This book is large enough to have a lot of detail for each period and includes back and side views as well as front. and _Women's Headdress and Hairstyles: In England from AD 600 to the Present Day_, by Georgine de Courtais, published by Batsford in London in 1986. This book is not as large, but still useful. Both books should be available in libraries if you don't want to buy them. 1860s hairstyles are very different from those of the 1880s and would have looked very eccentric if worn then. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 16:58:50 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Sizes and tight lacing Dee and Marilyn, I think I said this before, but I'm fairly dubious about the utility of judging 19th-century sizing from 20th-century sources. There were many 19th-century tailor's and dressmaker's drafting systems, which were probably used to create patterns for much of the surviving clothing. These systems included charts of "standard" sizes. They were drawn up by working tailors and dressmakers, on the basis of their experience, for practical use by others. So presumably the sizes "worked" pretty well. There were also published, sized paper patterns from the 1860s on. Claudia Kidwell's _Cutting a Fashionable Fit_ is a very good history and analysis of such systems and includes a list of all those held in the Library of Congress. I would think a comparative study of the sizing in these systems would be more illuminating than a study (necessarily partial) of surviving garments. And especially, more illuminating than collectors' anecdotes about their purchases. No offense, it's fun talking about this stuff--but is it meaningful from a scientifc standpoint? I've collected 19th-century clothes for 24 years and can say that I've accumulated many that were exactly my (uncorseted) size, as if they'd been made for me. I've also passed up many that were way too small or way to large. But does that really mean anything, except that 19th-century women varied in size, whether due to corseting or not? (Fortunately for collectors, it _does_ mean that most people can find items in their size.) I do suspect some of the very tiny garments belonged to adolescent girls rather than adults, and that people today do not necessarily recognize subtle style differences that might indicate this. On the other hand, I suppose the only way to find out about how, why, and how much reenactors corset themselves today is to ask them. Though measuring them would be even better. . . . For myself, I've worn corsets but have never attempted to tight lace. I don't think I could squeeze in more than a couple of inches without running into unsurmountable resistance from my bones, which, since I am an adult, are not malleable. However, I've never tried because I've never wanted to tight lace. I'm within my normal weight range. I eat a ton without ever changing weight or worrying about fats or carbohydrates or healthy food. I'm happy with my body. Since I'm a dancer, most of my concern about it has been focused on building muscles, stretching, posture, and improving technique. I do know modern reenactors who tight lace. I find some of the "before" and "after" effects, as seen in the ladies' room, truly astonishing. I think, by observation, that the more body fat you have the more you _can_ tight lace. I also think that, since our culture is very critical of body fat, people who have more than is acceptable find reenactment venues appealing because there they _can_ tight lace, transforming a "fat" appearance to "endowed in the right places." I'm not criticizing anybody for either being overweight, as our culture defines it, or trying to change their appearance. Personally, I think that what matters is whether your health is good and whether you have the physical ability to do what you want in life. I have no intention of letting _Vogue_ magazine control how I feel about myself. Possibly the more zaftig reenactors are also saying this, but in a different way. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 11:00:54 -0400 From: fy289@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Marilyn J Burian) Subject: What can a corset really do? I belong to both the "vintage" and "h-costume" groups and think answers could come from both groups. The following is in response to a post written to me. I know that people's interests can overlap as mine do. I am posting this in both groups, rather than replying directly to Dee, because I am trying to reach the widest possible audience possible and *I* am interested in the feedback and experiences of others. Some of her questions might be answered by people who make and wear reproduction corsets. I am a relative newbee. If this is a "faux pas" please address all flames to me NOT to Dee. Marilyn >From: 100545.3105@compuserve.com (Dee Wilson) >Subject: Doris Langley Moore etc >Hi Marilyn >I believe you posted a reference to DL Moore in the VINTAGE news >list ? >You said ************** >I agree with Moore when she says "The modern woman, though her >waist is not strikingly different, has a decidedly larger dia- >phragm than her predecessors ... " I have THIS problem with >models and my vintage clothing. One of my dear friends refuses >to break her ribs to better fit some of my favorite dresses. >Selfish of her, isn't it? :) ****************************** >You may have seen a post I made regarding 19C corsetry ? I am >writing a book on the social history of domestic medicine and >health, 1750 - 1965. The subtitle is " a record of what we have >done to our bodies". >My interest is the normal middleclass family, not the extremes, >so I am trying to look at the everyday activities, not the >newspaper headlines. >May I ask a few Q about your models and corset wearing ? >1. Do they feel they could wear 19C corsets all day every >day if they were 19c people ? ( We must not judge the past by >our standards today !) >2. How many inches can you lose today with corsetry ? >Some 19C doctors were complaining that women were loosing 5 - 8 >inches, but may be that was from a saggy tummy to start with ? >3. I think many 19c women wore tight stays, but believed >that they were not tightlacing, although we might judge it so. >So, when does "sensible" lacing become "tight" lacing ? Hello Dee, I'm afraid that I am NOT going to be able to help you. I have a feeling that my answer is going to RAISE more questions than it is going to GIVE answers. It has in my mind. MY MODELS DON'T WEAR CORSETS! They WON'T wear corsets! They've told me so in no uncertain terms. (One, who is a belly dancer, did so while rolling on the floor with hysterical laugh- ter at the thought). And yet, THEY FIT INTO MY CLOTHING. "My models" is an affectionate term (rather than a professional term) that refers to a core group of 3 woman (between the ages of 40 and 70) (between 5'4" and 5'5") who I call upon when someone needs my clothing. I know *who* fits *what* garment and they can be relied upon to *treat my clothes with respect*. If more models are needed, they are recruited from the group to be addressed. The largest show I did involved 70 some garments and the 35 or so that were mine ranged from the 1840's thur 1920. NO CORSETS were needed EXCEPT some THROUGH THE MIDRIFF! (These garments fit women who wear size 5/6 to 8/10 in todays clothes). This lack of corsets probably affects the generasilhouette somewhat, but I have to work with what I have. I do my best to get the proper petticoats and hoops (if appropriate) under each dress in order to get the skirts to fall and drape CORRECTLY for each period. I have always operated on a limited budget and am indeed fortunate to have what I have. I am the only one in my area that is inter- ested in costume to the DEGREE that I am (that I know of. They may be out there, but I haven't found them). Conclusions ?????? The most common problem I run across is the very tiny dresses that it look like no human being could fit into. When you DO find someone a size 2 to wear them, their bust is too big or they are too tall. Aside from that...... The following will be referring to garments that fit size 5 to 8. I seem to have as many of these as I do the tiny ones. The garments fit across the bust and waist. We notice some narrowing in the shoulders probably caused by the posture result- ing from corset wear. You don't slump in a corset> The narrow shoulders has not been a major problem. The most common problem area (that *I* run into) is across the diaphragm. Some clothes don't fit across the diaphragm leading me to believe that that *entire area* was narrowed by the corset wearing over the years and THAT contributed to the whole mid section looking so small rather than the waist per se being so tiny. (Optical illusion?). (This compression or deforming of the ribs is showed in a doctor's diagram of the 1860's). (I do put two petticoats, or more, under each garment). With drawstring petticoats, we simply fit the petticoat's waist a little below the garment's waist if we need to reduce bulk. Most people hate the high, tight necks of the 1880's on up. Sometimes they don't fit. We often leave them open. Again, this may have something to do with the posture resulting from wearing a corset. I don't have much of a problem with height in general. I do have on dress from 1901 that needs someone size 3, with a narrow diaphragm who is at least 5'6" tall. I would think that most of my clothing is "middle class" rather than "upper". My clothes are interesting but not spectacu- lar (with a coupe of exceptions). They are made of nice fabrics but are not particularly ornate. I imagine that they were all "good" dresses. I have very little black. As far as wearablity of corsets go..... I can only refer to my experiences in the 1960's. I wore a boned, merry widow, AND a waist cincher under my wedding dress, creating a 22" waist. (I had "no" bust and an over abundance of hips. I have no idea what my natural waist was. It was the only time in my life that I was my "correct" weight. I was exercising daily and doing 200 sit ups a day so I don't think there was a lot of flab there). I liked the "feel" of the merry widow so well that I wore daily for over a year until I outgrew it. This leads me to believe that, if you are your correct weight, and the corset is well fitting, it might be comfortable. If you are interested in "domestic medicine and health" you might get a real kick out of (and information from) several chapters in a book called THE LIGHT OF THE HOME - an intimate view of the lives of women in Victorian America by Harvey Green of the Margaret Strong Museum in Rochester New York. It is a very "readable" book. I have it out of the library right now because I want to do a post on another Victorian atrocity called the "pessary". It is not a costume book per se but deals with cloth- ing because clothing is a part of life. I'm really going to have to get around to buying this book someday! I will be interested in any responses to this also. Marilyn P.S. The address for the Vintage group is Vintage@brownvm.brown.edu I would be interested in adresses of other cotume and historic clothing groups also. I do not have access to the web. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 14:51:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathrine C Knox Subject: Freshwoman introduction To all of the costume designers at CMU: Hello, my name is Katie Knox and I am a freshman here at CMU and I am also planning on becoming a costume designer. I would love to meet anyone in the field who would be interested on being a friend or a mentor. Any advice on what classes to take or about life in general would be greatly appreciated. My email # Knox+@Andrew.CMU.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:16:43 +0000 From: "Jennifer Kubenka" Subject: Bleaching unbleached linen Hi all. Is there a way to bleach unbleached linen? My friends who are trying this, used Clorox, which apparently did not work. Any help would be appreciated. Jennifer D. Kubenka ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 10:03:17 -0400 From: "Laurie E. W. Brandt" Subject: Re: Mysterious books In message "Hoover, Kathleen M" writes: > Due to financial constraints, my costume collection is exceedingly > small. However, as to "The History of Costume" by Milia Davenport, > my Costume History Professor found it important and comprehensive > enough to select it for our class text. At that precise moment, 1991, > it went out of print and alas, I never got a personal copy. She > still does basically teach from it, giving us masses of notes instead. > I have seen it, as there is a copy in the U.'s Reference Library, and > from what I can remember it is quite extensive, covers from prehistory > to the early twentieth century, and is amply illustrated. > > I'd still love to find a copy, if someone would like to sell. > > Hope this helps, I picked up my copy a couple of years ago at Powell's Books in Portland Oregon, They always seemed to have several copies on the shelves. The edition I have was printed by Crown Publishers New York. ISBN 0-517-037165. Laurie Brandt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:42:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Catherine Kehl Subject: Re: Mysterious books A bit off on a tangent, but I know that about a year ago Powell's was tlaking about going on-line pretty significantly, allowing people to do a fair bit of their searching from the comfort of their own dens.... (I'm lucky enough to be only about a four hour drive from Powell's. so I make it down there once or twice a year, but this sounded lovely...) Of course, this wqs a while ago and I have since misplaced the information -- anyone know what become of it? On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Laurie E. W. Brandt wrote: I picked up my copy a couple of years ago at Powell's Books in Portland Oregon, They always seemed to have several copies on the shelves. The edition I have was printed by Crown Publishers New York. ISBN 0-517-037165. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 10:14:09 -0500 (CDT) From: P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US Subject: mystery books Here are the identifications of some of the books: _The English Icon: Elizabethan & Jacobean Portraiture_ by Roy Strong. Published in the U.S. by Pantheon Books, 1969. ISBN: 710067348 (Portraits belonging to the Paul Mellon Foundation for British Art) _Hispanic Costume, 1480-1530_ by Ruth matilda Anderson. Published by the Hispanic Society of America ISBN: 0875351263 _The Language of Clothes_ by Alison Lurie. Published by Random House, 1981. ISBN: 0394513029 _Textiles in America, 1650-1870: a dictionary based on original documents: prints and paintings, commercial records, American merchants' papers, shopkeepers'' advertisements, and pattern books with original swatches of cloth_ by Florence M. Montgomery. Published by Norton, 1984. ISBN: 0393017036 _A Visual History of Costume: the Sixteenth Century_ by Jane Ashelford. Published by Drama Book Publishers, 1983. ISBN: 0896760766 Also: I could find no record of _Lives of the Saints_ by Lynne Lawner. Lynne Lawner wrote _Lives of the Courtesans_ which was published by Rizolli. (It's got WONDERFUL pictures) Butler's _Lives of the Saints_ can be found from a number of different publishers and in different translations, but I don't think it would be very useful to costumers. Here is the info for _Lives of the Courtesans_: _Lives of the Courtesans: Portraits of the Renaissance_ by Lynne Lawner. Published by Rizzoli, 1987. ISBN: 084780738X Sheryl J. Nance Kansas City MO Public Library p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 10:31:33 -0400 From: walter@tandem.physics.upenn.edu (KAREN WALTER) Subject: bleaching linen This is in response to the question about bleaching unbleached linen. I assume you are trying to bleach yardage, not yarn. As a spinner, I've had some experience bleaching yarns. I would suggest you put the fabric through a couple of very hot wash cycles with detergent before you try to bleach it. If the length is short and you have a big pot, you could even simmer it with some dish soap. Unbleached linen contains a lot of waxes and oils which may be what's hampering the bleaching process. Both chlorine and peroxide bleaches (hair bleach) will work on linen, make sure you monitor the process closely. Put the fabric in enough water/bleach solution so that the water can circulate and the fabric will bleach evenly. I use about a quarter cup of bleach to a quart of water to bleach my yarn, but it bleaches quickly so I must watch carefully. (That's clorox, by the way - takes about 15 minutes.) Stir the fabric/water/bleach periodically to encourage even bleaching. It will bleach to a creamy color, not bright white. Remove the fabric from the bleach solution as soon as the desired effect is reached and rinse, rinse, rinse. It takes a LOT of rinsing to make the bleach smell go away, and I'm not convinced the bleach is gone if I can still smell it! I strongly suggest you try this on swatches first. Test in a controlled situation to determine the bleach/water ratio you need. Good luck! Karen Walter walter@tandem.physics.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: 28 Aug 1995 09:23:28 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Mysterious books Reply to: RE>Mysterious books Kathy, Check with the bookstore at the New York Metropolitan Museum. I purchased the Davenport book from them about three years ago, and it was my impression that it was newly back in print at that time. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 09:30:30 PDT From: Friday Valentine Subject: Re: Mysterious books Yes, Powell's does have its own web page. I dont have the URL handy but any searcher ought to be able to find it, if not try the homepages of either teleport (www.teleport.com) or netcom (www.netcom.com) as they are the largest internet providers here in portland. Friday K. Valentine * Sr. Table of Contents Editor Blackwell North America, Inc. * valentin@bnamf.blackwell.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:44:21 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Elizabethan shoe maker Edward Wright wanted contact information for shoe providers. A good maker for Elizabethan shoes is: Wild Soles 17792 Metzler Lane Huntington Beach, CA 92647 (714)-847-7474 When I had the model that ties around your ankle with leather ties, I found that the ties were forever coming untied. I saw a gentleman who solved this by replacing the leather ties with standard shoelaces. They also make a model with a buckle, which I prefer, and a slip-on variety. Gail DeCamp decampg@ngc.com ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #168 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!