From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #169 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, August 29 1995 Volume 3, Number 169 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: RE: Bleaching unbleached linen Mastif's Re: Mastif's RE: Bleaching unbleached linen linen dyes Re: linen dyes Re: Bleaching unbleached linen list Re: h-costume bibliograpy -- re Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #168 Re: linen dyes Mastiffs, etc. Re: Bleaching unbleached linen Re: 13th Century Buttons (was list) Re: linen dyes RE: Bleaching unbleached linen Costume bibliography Re: linen dyes Corsets & reenacting vs. vintage 16th century insults Re: list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:52:44 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Bleaching unbleached linen | Is there a way to bleach unbleached linen? | | My friends who are trying this, used Clorox, which apparently did | not work. Clorox certainly will work. I used it on a unbleached linen shirt that had some nasty stains that nothing else would touch. It didn't get the stains out completely, but it did a great job of whitening the linen. You may need to experiment to get the right concentration. It takes more bleach than what the manufacturer recommends for a typical wash. Your friends probably did not use enough. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 00:50:04 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Mastif's | Edward Wright wrote: | :In his Description of England, Harrison wrote about mastiffs that were | :kept indoors and so gentle that children could play with and climb upon | :their backs to ride them. | : | :I would hardly call a mastiff a lap dog. | Well if anyone knows dog breeds, they will realize that size of dog does not mean they cannot be gentle. Actually Mastifs and St.Bernard's are probably two of the most gentle breeds there are and both are large enough for children to ride on there backs. Other gentle breeds around children are Bull Mastif's, and Boxers, again not lap sized. If you look at acurate statistics on dog bites you will find that the smaller breeds that are lap size are really the most viscious. Can you imagine if some of breeds like little necvious dogs got up in size to a masif? Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:11:57 -0500 From: aboleyn@wichita.fn.net (Sarah Anne Russell) Subject: Re: Mastif's > > > >Well if anyone knows dog breeds, they will realize that size of dog >does not mean they cannot be gentle. Actually Mastifs and St.Bernard's >are probably two of the most gentle breeds there are and both are >large enough for children to ride on there backs. Other gentle breeds >around children are Bull Mastif's, and Boxers, again not lap sized. > > I agree! As a Pembroke Welsh Corgi owner, I know the traits of these sly and fey dogs. They can either be vicious with a smirk on their faces, or open their mouths and "smile" at you like you were their very best friends! Sarah - whose Pem (Brix' Anne's Li'l Magic) is a fey AND sly little lover who can turn vicious to threatening people, and when I get into SCA cotuming (1530's Anne Boleyn Style) the Pem cannot stop barking at me/her. . . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:45:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Carol Cannon Subject: RE: Bleaching unbleached linen So just what concentration of bleach to water is 'safe' for linen and for what amount of time should it be left on--such that it won't cause the fibers to weaken/disintegrate? And thanks for the thoughts. Thanks also to the original poster for bringing the topic up. I just bought several yards of linen at $3.00/yd...in a rather vivid teel green that I doubt could pass for medieval... . Thanks again to everyone. Carol ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cannon, Carol J. Bell cjcannon@ucdavis.edu Grannia [in the SCA] 'Life is so short, the craft so long to learn.'--Hippocrates' Aphorisms. I.i., 5th cent. BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:16:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Margaret Griffith Subject: linen dyes I was told that linen was really difficult to dye with "natural" dyes. Can anyone tell me what colors linen could be dyed say pre-seventeenth century? Specifically, I am two pieces of linen - one is a reddish brown (chestnut), and the other is pale pink. Could these colors have been produced with natural dyes in before around 1650? Thanks, Meg Griffith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 14:39:35 PDT From: Friday Valentine Subject: Re: linen dyes Since we're on this thread ( ;) sorry) does anyone have citations for books that *show* reliable results of period dyes? I have a beautiful poster from Navajo country that shows Native American vegetable dyes that I use to extrapolate for period stuff. I've seen many discussions and recipes for period dyes but no really good books with swatches or pix. Friday K. Valentine * Sr. Table of Contents Editor Blackwell North America, Inc. * valentin@bnamf.blackwell.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:47:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: Re: Bleaching unbleached linen I've never done it, but try sunlight. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:16:10 EDT From: Bryan Kennedy Subject: list I am planning a late-13th-century Burgundian wedding and am interested in joining to obtain any information you may have on men's and women's buttons from this period. Thanks! %-------------------------------------------------% % Bryan Kennedy 202-287-3738 (313) % % Smithsonian Books 470 L'Enfant Plaza % %-------------------------------------------------% ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 95 08:37:08 EDT From: AWILSON%ABRSCBR.ANCA@roris.erin.gov.au (Wilson, Annette) Subject: Re: h-costume bibliograpy -- re "A Visual History of Costume: the Sixteenth Century, Jane Ashelford" is also titled "Dress in the Age of Elizabeth" Annette Wilson Email: awilson.abrscbr@anca.erin.gov.au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:29:17 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #168 bleaching linen: based on my exp., be very, very careful with chlorine bleach and linen. It ate a hole in something I was practising on. In addition to the advice already given, which sounds quite reasonable, people used to spread linen in the sun to dry. Sunlight is certainly an excellent bleach. I would tend to use clorox2 (hydrogen peroxide) in pref. to chlorine bleach. 2 c. only! Susan Fatemi ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 17:12:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: linen dyes On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Margaret Griffith wrote: > I was told that linen was really difficult to dye with "natural" dyes. > Can anyone tell me what colors linen could be dyed say pre-seventeenth > century? > > Specifically, I am two pieces of linen - one is a reddish brown > (chestnut), and the other is pale pink. Could these colors have been > produced with natural dyes in before around 1650? The common wisdom holds that linen doesn't hold dyes well and tends to fade easily. The common wisdom is supported by the fact that early linen articles _tend_ to be undyed and that when colors are specifically wanted (e.g. for tapestries and embroideries) linen is not used. But that isn't to say that linen was _never_ dyed. The Museum of London clothing book makes reference to skeins of dyed linen thread (I believe in a late-medieval inventory, rather than an actual find). In addition, I recently acquired a book that shows the lining of the 15th century Golden Fleece vestments, and that lining is of a rose-colored linen. (A little lighter than an "old rose" but not as orangey as a "salmon".) Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:17:30 EDT From: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu Subject: Mastiffs, etc. I have a great photo from around 1920 of an English woman and her daughter in South Africa sitting on a wall and posing with their pet LEOPARD!!! I've been thinking of it as I've been reading the debate about pets... Just wanted to share... B) - -------------------------------------------------|=|=|-------- Bonnie Glickman =|=|= Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 23:24:41 -0400 From: MarieD0108@aol.com Subject: Re: Bleaching unbleached linen You could alwyas try the old-fashioned way, if you had the time. Wash it to remove sizing, and spread out on the snow (you will probably have to wait for winter for this one). Should bleach fine. The snow acts as a natural magnifier and reflector of sunlight, which is really good for bleaching. This also works for stains on white cotton garments. Wash, then lay out on the snow. Marie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 23:20:50 -0400 From: MarieD0108@aol.com Subject: Re: 13th Century Buttons (was list) You would think they were natural materials (of course!) and basically shaped. You don't say what class you would belong to, so I will try to be helpful. Remember the old adage - the higher the class the better the clothes (and the more work). Lower classes might use acorns or cross sections of bone or antler. Round leather buttons would also be nice. Probably no metal. There was no real middle class in the 13th century, but a little higher (merchant) would be a little nicer made, perhaps more work on them. Rolled cord buttons would work. The buttons would be smaller. The high classes could have metal buttons, smaller yet, or very large. Still the basics - metal, leather or fabric. A good base for making buttons are the cover-your-own buttons. They are ready-made to be embellished and reasonable. Good luck! Marie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:12:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: linen dyes On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Heather Rose Jones wrote: > > Heather Rose Jones Would you be willing to post the book showing the Golden Fleece vestment lining with information on anything else it may cover. It sounds wonderful and useful since it does portray an actual medieval dyed-linen sample, as well as fifteenth century (or 16th?) lining. Thank you Teresa> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:46:38 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: RE: Bleaching unbleached linen For those interested in 'environmentally friendly' processes (and historically authentic ones), the traditional Indian dyer used to bleach his cottons in a dung bath! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:50:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Costume bibliography Silk Textiles of Spain Eigth to Fifteenth Century by Florence Lewis May Hispanic Notes and Monographs Essays, studies, and brief biographies issued by the Hispanic Society of America Peninsular series Printed by The Hispanic Society of America New York 1957 No isbn#, no library of congress # listed in this book. It was privately printed by the Hispanic Society of America. Survey of contents, techniques, and textiles in moorish and christian spain from the 8-15th centuries with photographs, including whole garments and notes on sumptuary legislation, mixed fabrics, weaving techniques and sericulture. Joan Thirsk, "The fantastical folly of fashion; the English stocking knitting industry, 1500-1700." _Textile History and Economic History: Essays in Honour of Miss Julia de Lacy Mann_. Eds. N.B. Harte and K.G. Ponting. University of Manchester: Manchester University Press, 1973. uk isbn 0 7190 0538 8 Note: Copyright belongs to individual authors. Hope this helps, Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 14:51:25 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: linen dyes On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Friday Valentine wrote: > Since we're on this thread ( ;) sorry) does anyone have citations for > books that *show* reliable results of period dyes? I have a beautiful > poster from Navajo country that shows Native American vegetable dyes > that I use to extrapolate for period stuff. I've seen many discussions > and recipes for period dyes but no really good books with swatches or > pix. > Mattiebelle Gittinger, Master Dyers to the World, is lavishly illustrated with historic Indian cottons (many of which were made for the European and SE Asian trade and don't look at all Indian - in fact, some 18th century Indian cottons are still eagerly bought up in England by Dutch buyer who think of them as part of traditional Dutch folk wear). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:35:28 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Corsets & reenacting vs. vintage I am a corset/stay-wearing reenactor. I feel that I get a better look & posture when wearing the correct undergarments. They are also very handy to wear when teaching people what was worn historically. To answer the questions posed: 1. I have not done that many 19th century events to judge if I could wear a corset all day, every day. For the 18th Century, I have worn stays all day for three-day events. Admittedly by the third day it can get uncomfortable, but then I find the best approach is to change into another set of stays. 3. When does sensible lacing become tight lacing? When it feels like one side of my ribs is folding under the other side, it's too tight. If I feel numb anywhere, it's too tight. I've never tried to lace tighter & tighter over time to become progressively smaller. When I was aged 10 to 16, I wore a back brace for the treatment of scoliosis. (Curvature of the spine) Part of the brace was a section that was strapped tightly around the waist & hips. Generally, women with scoliosis are tall & thin as I was. The brace probably kept my waist smaller than it would have become normally. (As a teenager I received many comments on my small waist.) I didn't have much problem with the constriction of the brace, only with welts caused by chafing in the lower hip. (The hip area of the brace was leather and then plastic) Perhaps for this reason I didn't have any problem adjusting to corsets. They may have gotten painful on the third day of an event because it's tiring to be on my feet for three days straight! I have one friend who is a speech therapist. She finds stays particularly uncomfortable because they do not allow her to breathe correctly. Some women find them very comfortable, due to the extra back support. For most historic costuming, the corset is used to reshape the body to the silhouette of the time. Different corsets can be compared to the difference between a sports bra and a Wonderbra. The corset does not need to be tight to do the job! I assume one benefit of a corset for a large busted woman is that the breast weight can be supported from the waist & hips instead of hanging on the shoulders from bra straps. I don't wear vintage clothing, so I don't need to find a way to fit into it. I'm sure it is far more difficult to corset someone to fit an existing garment than to make a new dress for a corseted figure! I also don't like the idea of vintage clothing being altered and worn, because this destroys an item that I would like to study and reproduce! (But that's why I'm in this group & not the vintage list.) As for the fit of vintage clothing on an improperly-underweared body of today, has anyone compared this against period photographs? What about comparing it to someone in a recreated garment complete with the underwear? Has anyone considered that the lack of a corset may cause stress on a vintage garment, damaging or stretching it out of shape? (More problems for me when I study a dress.) -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: 29 Aug 95 16:06:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: 16th century insults Re: the Radio 4 Programme I have written to the producer asking for a tape/transcript, and details of a couple of books being published on the subject next year. I'll let you know developments! Re: Pets I had indeed forgotton the range of pets owned by women - but will stand by the statement that the most usual pet was a lapdog. (I wouldn't have thought a parrot or a monkey would last long in an uncentrally-heated house in England). Most of the references I have come across to men keeping dogs well (as opposed to women spoiling them!), eg feeding them special diets, like bread soaked in milk, come from manuals on hunting and these are supposed to be techniques to improve the animals' skill or keenness. Has anyone any other references? BTW I'm not convinced feeding a hunting dog on bread and milk would be good for it, there are also references to bread and gravy. I assumed this diet would make them keener to catch the prey! All the information on bestiality I've come across (not that I've researched it fully!) indicates that the death penalty was the usual penalty for man and beast, not being 'understood' at all - what references have you? - I haven't seen anything on women and bestiality in the 16th century (which I suppose is a bit odd, given the period view of women's sexuality) - the perceived perversion seems to be 'false motherhood' - as mentioned, references to feeding lapdogs at the breast. Re: Books Roy Strong's Book 'The Elizabethan Icon' is full of black and white (only occasional colour) photographs of 16th century pictures, divided into putative artists. Lots of unusual pictures I've never seen reproduced elsewhere. Difficult to see much costuming detail, but does give a feel for what was 'common' in any decade eg shapes and decorations. Ashelford's pictures are good - all colour, but all of commonly reproduced pictures, her costuming information is dodgy! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:09:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: list On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Bryan Kennedy wrote: > Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:16:10 EDT > From: Bryan Kennedy > To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu > Subject: list > > > I am planning a late-13th-century Burgundian wedding and am interested > in joining to obtain any information you may have on men's and women's > buttons from this period. Thanks! > The only evidence I have on buttons and buttonholes are fourteenth century and up, in England, as far as anyone can tell, there were no 13th century buttons, but perhaps French archaeology turns up something different? If anyone does give you a reference, or if you find any evidence, pictures, references etc., would you please post it to the group? Thank you. Teresa ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #169 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!