From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #172 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, August 31 1995 Volume 3, Number 172 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: corsets and effect on body Help with this picture, please costume bibliography Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #171 another bibliography Re: another bibliography -- anymore out there?! :-) Swaybacks & corsets Natural Dyeing Costuming Safety Re: 1880s hairstyles Re: Costuming Safety Re: Costuming Safety Looking for viking clothing info Re: Swaybacks & corsets Re: Mordants Re: Costuming Safety ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 30 Aug 1995 13:58:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: corsets and effect on body I was idly leafing through a book called "French Undressing" on naughty French postcards c. 1900-1920, and I was staggered by the posture of the women in the postcards. They were so incredibly sway-backed that it hurt to look at them. Could not this have been the effect of wearing those "Gibson-Girl" S-shaped corsets of the period? I used to be a bit of a jock, so between gyms and locker-rooms I think I have a fair idea of what most of my fellow-females look like in the raw, and I' ve never seen anything like this. ...Gone to call her chiropractor for sympathetic pain... Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:51:06 +0000 From: "Jennifer Kubenka" Subject: Help with this picture, please Hi, all. I'm sitting here, during my lunch, and looking at a painting by Girolamo Romanino (1484/85-after1559); it is called, in this book, "Portrait of a Man," and is dated to 1516-1519. Anyway, the man has on a black and gold embroidered doublet, and the collar of his shirt sticks out. It has an interesting embroidery design on it, but it does not look like blackwork. It almost looks like Satin stitch and backstitch, but I am not sure. Can anyone help me identify what kind of embroidery it might be? It sure is a lovely outfit, all together... BTW, the name of the book I am looking at is called: Treasures of Venice: Paintings from the Museum of Fine Arts, Budapest. Minneapolis: Minneapolis Institute of Arts; New York: Distributed by Harry N. Abrams, c1995. ISBN 0810938804 (Abrams : cloth) or 0912964561 (Museum : pbk.) The picture in question is on p. 180-81. And while I'm at it, is the gold on the doublet embroidered onto the black, or is it part of the material proper? I would assume that the black embroidery on the gold was added on later, but I am not sure, and would like to know if this assumption is correct. Thanks, Jennifer D. Kubenka ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:43:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Julie Cheetham Subject: costume bibliography Cynthia Barnes and I would like to thank all of you who posted information on the "Mysterious" books in response to our recent request. It helped clean up the revised bibliography which, as you've noted from Diane's posting, is now ready for distribution. Many thanks, as well, to all of you who from time to time have posted bibliographic reference material in response to list members' questions. It was from these postings that much of the bibliography was compiled. Hopefully, as time and energy permit, the bibliography will continue to expand, incorporating new postings by list members. This process will be facilitated if, when recommending a book, you provide complete information: full title, author, publisher, copyright date and a brief description of contents and usefulness to members of this list. Thanks again and enjoy! Julie and Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:21:14 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #171 Well! Diane, (mock indignation) what about my lovely bib. on Eastern costume ?? For when people get tired of reading about surcotes and cotehardies and bias (or not) hose, snoods, etc. Susan Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 15:52:01 -0500 (CDT) From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Subject: another bibliography <> I also have a bibliography which targets American, English and French clothing, 1840-1865, which includes journal articles, theses, books, etc. It's rather long, so I don't know if it would be too much to add, but I can certainly e-mail it to anyone who is interested, especially those new folk who have joined since the last time I offered this. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 14:06:31 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: another bibliography -- anymore out there?! :-) Vicki Betts wrote: > <> :-) Well if you don't tell me about these bibliographies then I won't know about them, now will I?!! :-) > I also have a bibliography which targets American, English and French > clothing, 1840-1865, which includes journal articles, theses, books, etc. Anyone who has ANY bibliographies they'd like to see added to the archives are welcome to mail me a copy. I'll attach the appropriate stuff needed for the archive (short description, compiled-by credit, date, etc.) and place it there for anyone to pick up and read. That'll certainly save individuals from having to send out multiple copies -- let the automated server do it for you! - -- Diane Close h-costume archive maintainer close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 14:20:19 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Swaybacks & corsets I read in a biography of the actress Sarah Bernhardt, that she was responsible starting the fashion of the sway- backed posture in the late 19th C. THe book showed cartoons cariacaturing her posture. I think the corsets were most of the reason for that posture in the general population, though. Alison PS. I don't know what kind of (or lack of) corsetry Ms. B. wore, & whether it contributed to her posture or not. She was known for her eccentric dress, including wearing pants, & occasionally going without a corset... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 18:05:16 -0400 From: Ann Barry Subject: Natural Dyeing Although there are many books on natural dyeing incuding some reprints of old manuals, I recommend The Art and Craft of Natural Dyeing - Traditional Recipes for Modern Use by J. N. Liles. University of Tennessee Press, ISBN 0-87049-669-7 or 0-87049-670-0 (paper) as a concise reference. Liles was interested in reproducing the old dyes such as Turkey Red and Prussian Blue and seems to have done a good job of researching the literature and coming up with workable, traditional recipes not only for wool but also for cotton, linen and silk. He includes a discussion of the history of each color and a decent bibliography. Indigo and woad are plants bearing indigotin which needs to be reduced chemically to be soluable in a alkaline solution. Urine, lime water or wood ash provided the alkaline. They are not used as mordants as alum, tin or chrome might be. The whole process is much more complicated than ordinary natural dyeing since you are vat dyeing. Liles explains this in detail. I think all indigo vats smell, no matter what chemical is used. For the above reasons, I would not recommend starting your natural dyeing forray with indigo. Of course, none of the other blues are very lightfast. There are a number of other dyes that are authentic, easy to work with and are either substantive or use safe mordants like alum. Note that some mordants are highly poisonous (tin and chrome). It is important to follow good safety practices when working with dyes. Natural dyeing can be more dangerous than chemical dyeing. If you don't want to go to the trouble of using natural dyes but want to reproduce the colors, I have had good luck with Lanaset (now called Sabraset) from Pro Chemical. I was unable to tell the difference between what I had dyed in cochineal and indigo dye baths and my chemical dyes. Good luck. Ann Barry (abarry@pipeline.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 18:57:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Costuming Safety Gentle Readers: I have just spent the afternoon having the absolute crap scared out of me during what should have been a routine safety lecture. (Once again proving I don't know everything) For those of you in the theatre industry and for anyone who does any scale craft and millinery work, please pay attention to this post. Monona Rossol went to Santa Fe opera company this past summer and gave a lecture on safety in the theatre. I had heard parts of this lecture before and it scared me then but not nearly as much as it scared me now. We are subjected to many hazardous chemicals everyday when we work in costuming. I have developed exzema on my hands from dealing with dyes and other chemicals daily. Please, Please, Please, everyone try to get a copy of her book "Stage Fright". I don't have the ISBN or publisher but any good bookstore should be able to find it. Some of the scary things I have learned 1. Whether or not a chemical is listed toxic or non-toxic is decided upon through a rat test. They take 10 rats and put them in a box with a sample of the chemical. If 5 or more rats die, it is labeled toxic, if 4 or less rats die, it is labeled non-toxic. 2. Exposure rates are established using a healthy young male, if you are not healthy or are a female, or better yet a female on the pill, your exposure time is different. 3. "Art materials are very likely to be chronically toxic, so there is now a special labeling law for them......This law requires products containing chronically hazardous chemicals be labeled with warnings. While this is a great improvement, chemicals whose hazards are unknown or untested can still be labeled "non-toxic". I realize this is not on our usual line on discussion, but it is something which we all should be aware. If anyone has any questions, please e-mail me, I will give you all the information I have. If I have angered anyone with this post, please e-mail me privately. Thank you, Kat Katherine L. Rodman Gainesville, FL afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu "Historical accuracy and costume design do not neccessarily go hand in hand" John Conklin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 18:17:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: 1880s hairstyles You don't answer your mail for a few days and you get an avalanche. For those of you who answered all my questions this summer, "Indulgences from a Louisville Harem" is now merrily (somewhat) being built and it is lovely. I love the Edwardian period and so it was much fun for me to design a show in it. As for the Corson book, I checked it out of our library and was greatly disappointed with it. The line drawings were amateurish and very limiting, there was little of the versatility that I have seen in other books. For the most part, I used "Victorian and Edwardian Fashions: A Photo Essay" (I think that is the name, I have it at the shop right now) and a photocopier to enlarge the photos so I could see the detail. I feel I have a much better idea of what the hairstyle looked like this way. Thanks again for all of your help this summer, Kat Katherine L. Rodman Gainesville, FL afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu "Historical accuracy and costume design do not neccessarily go hand in hand" John Conklin On Sun, 27 Aug 1995, Allan Terry wrote: > Re Barbara's question about 1880s hairstyles--I've recommended these books > before, but--the best hairstyle books I know of are ... [snip] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 20:50:48 -0400 From: tmwass@main.citynet.net Subject: Re: Costuming Safety Katherine: I agree with your statement that materials, such as dyes, cleaners and paints must be respected and handled properly. They can contain heavy metals, organics, acids and caustics which have the potential to be inhalation, skin contact or ingestion hazards. The use of gloves, safety glasses, good ventilation, respirators, and avoiding the mixing of noncompatible materials can all be utilized to protect yourself while handling hazardous materials. >>If 5 or more rats die, it is labeled toxic, if 4 or less rats die, it is labeled non-toxic.<< I do not agree with your statement for determining what materials are considered "toxic" or "non-toxic." 99% of all materials will "kill 5 or more rats" at some level, including water, oxygen, and nitrogen, but not all are considered "toxic." Toxicity determinations are much more complex than this and involve determining the levels at which adverse health effects occur, the route of exposure (inhalation, ingestion, skin contact, etc, and the type of organisms. >>Exposure rates are established using a healthy young male<< This may have been true 20 years ago, but today the main group establishing exposure limits (the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists) does consider female as well as male workers. It is true that exposures to the young, old and unhealthy need to be considered in greater detail. Materials which are embryo-fetal toxins, female reporductive hazards, male reproductive hazards, teratogens, mutagens and carcinogens are usually identified and special precautions to reduce exposures should be taken with these materials. >>I realize this is not on our usual line on discussion, but it is something which we all should be aware.<< Again, I agree totally. It is unfortunate that proper precautions are not taken while utilizing some hazardous materials in a non-industrial setting. There was a non-profit group out of New York which dealt specifically with safety in the arts and crafts. I don't know if they are still in existance or not, but I will check when I get to work tomorrow. Why would you anger anyone with this post ? It's an important topic, and in the effort to make a reproduction costume we shouldn't have to suffer the historic illnesses also. Do we have to become "mad hatters" from excess mercury exposure to create a period hat ? Just my thoughts, warped as they may be. Terry L. Wass ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 18:45:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Costuming Safety On Wed, 30 Aug 1995, Katherine L. Rodman wrote: > find it. Some of the scary things I have learned > 1. Whether or not a chemical is listed toxic or non-toxic is decided > upon through a rat test. They take 10 rats and put them in a box with a > sample of the chemical. If 5 or more rats die, it is labeled toxic, if 4 > or less rats die, it is labeled non-toxic. This is an extremely misleading description of the "LD50" test, and if this is typical of the accuracy of what you were being told, then I would suggest that you find a more reliable source of information. The "LD50" (short for "lethal dose, 50%") test is done to establish a comparative standard for toxic substances, not to determine toxicity itself. The substance is _fed_ or _injected_ into rats at varying doses and the amount that kills half of them is the "LD50" level. General toxicity tests (to determine if a substance has _any_ toxicity) are done by exposing (feeding, injecting, or simply environmentally exposing, depending on the expected human exposure to the substance) juvenile animals (most often mice) to the substance and then comparing their _weight_gain_ to the weight gain of their unexposed siblings. A substance that noticably slows their expected weight gain is considered to be toxic at the level of exposure. I apologize for the non-costuming nature of this post, but I felt that disinformation of this nature ought to be corrected. As credentials, I offer the fact that I spent several years working in the toxicology department of a pharmaceutical company _performing_ LD50 and toxicity tests. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 23:54:52 -0400 From: Kjotvi@aol.com Subject: Looking for viking clothing info I am looking for english language sources of information on scandinavian textile archaeology. I want to write a guide to accurately reproducing viking age clothing for living history re-enactment. I have been working from: Margarethe Hald's Primitive Shoes Cloth and Clothing in Medieval Europe and Berichte uber die Ausgrabungen in Haithabu #20 I know that this list only scratches the surface of what is available. Any suggestions would be appreciated, as would info about in which libraries they might reside (to help in getting copies via interlibrary loan). Please e-mail to Kjotvi@aol.com Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 02:20:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Swaybacks & corsets Hello there, my name is Chris and I have been reading the corsetry dialogue with interest. I have been teaching myself how to make the Victorian hourglass shaped corset and having a great time with it. There seems to be a lot of questions about corsetry and I thought I would put out some information which some may find useful. Most of my information comes from an article written by Fakir Musafar. Sounds exotic? Actually he is a Silicon Valley executive who looks quite normal except for his 19 inch waist. He started training his waist in 1958. He is now very much an expert when it comes to corsetry. Here are some of the things he says in his article. "For serious corset play, you need a specialized, well-fitting garment that not only makes the waist smaller, but can be worn fort fairly long periods of time without falling apart. That eliminates a lot of popular "corset-like" garments. For example: elastized foundations, "waist nippers" and "whittlers" (with or without laces), eyehook bustiers with light boning, most wide lacing belts, and light-weight "tubular corsets" that put strong pressure on the ribs and hips. "Features of a practical corset include: *Custom made to fit the wearers body *Encloses torso from upper ribs past top of pelvis *Made of strong fabric or leather that doesn't stretch much under pressure, especially at the waist. *Has front opening with hooking clasps plus closely-spaced eyelets and lacing in back, with a pair of "puller loops" at the waistline *Has at least sixteen fairly stiff bones *Designed so it creates pronounced waistline curve when fully laced down, mild pressures top and bottom." He also says that it is possible to to make a fast reduction of up to six or seven inches in one fast lacing. However, this is unhealthy for someone who is not corset trained. If anyone decides that they do want to start training their waist, the beginning corset should be no more than four inches smaller than the waist. When you first put your corset on, lace it up about half way. Wear it that way for about an hour or so. After a while you will notice that you are more comfortable and your breathing doesn't feel so constricted. Once you feel comfortable, you can lace it up the rest of the way. For those who just want to use corsets to obtain the right form for a costume, I would use a corset that you can lace up to a minimum to get the shape you want without being uncomfortable. Don't forget that 19C corsets had busks that curved which is one of the things that made them unhealthy. Fakir is the designer of the corset patterns for B R Creations in Mountain View, CA. They are very good corsets for those who would be in the market for one. He also publishes his own magazine called "Body Play". Ok, ok, I know I've rattled on. I just thought that someone might find at least part of this interesting. So, peace, love and rock & roll. I'm outta here. Chris Prescott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:04:24 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: Mordants Mattiebelle Gittinger, Master Dyers to the World, discusses traditional (Indian) mordants and their uses at length. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 08:12:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Staff - Michigan Health Promotion Clearinghouse Subject: Re: Costuming Safety The Art & Craft Materials Institute concerns itself with such issues and has brochures, a newsletter etc. They expanded in 1982 from the Crayon, Watercolor & Craft Institute, to cover more types of materials. This is a US org. and reports on compliance with US law, etc. Their snail mail address is ACMI 100 Boylston St Suite 1050 Boston MA 02116 Their description of how they evaluate safety & toxicity sounds a little more comprehensive than "ten rats in a box, & see how many die." My 2c Joyous M. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #172 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!