From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #173 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, September 1 1995 Volume 3, Number 173 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: another bibliography -- anymore out there?! :-) Re: Swaybacks & corsets Swaybacks & corsets corsets and effect on body RE: Costuming Safety organizing bibliographies Corsets More bibliographies for the archives! Swaybacks & Corsets Re: Costuming Safety Viking clothing info. Re: Corsets corset talk clarification Re: corset talk clarification Re: corset talk clarification 1870's-1880's dress Re: corset talk clarification ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 08:39:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: another bibliography -- anymore out there?! :-) > Anyone who has ANY bibliographies they'd like to see added to the archives > are welcome to mail me a copy. I'll attach the appropriate stuff needed > for the archive (short description, compiled-by credit, date, etc.) and > place it there for anyone to pick up and read. That'll certainly save > individuals from having to send out multiple copies -- let the automated > server do it for you! > -- > Diane Close As someone who reads the bibliographies and appreciates the people who put them together as well as the excellent "staff" who put them onto the newsgroup and keep us appraised of them, I should like to offer a suggestion. Since the bibliographies are all rather long, and the more bibliographies we get, the more duplication will inevitably creep in, I would suggest a consolidation of all of the bibliographies divided then into time period, general, and specific areas wherein each of the recommended books could be coded to identify the contributor, if they so desire. So we would see bibliography_costume_medieval_general bibliography_1800s_general Wherein the time period, arbitrarily picked by historical boundaries roughly agreed upon by museums, or history books contain categories of general, specific and other categories. the bibliography 1800s may have: general costuming information, 1810-1820, 1820-1840, accessories etc., etc. Each person who contributes a source could have a two or three letter coding at the start of the entry which can be deciphered by a short (not that many people will be contributing bibliographies) appendix at the end or beginning. I know this would take an enourmous amount of work, the general categories of each bibliography would all include books like 20,000 years of costume and the like, but all the categories after that would be period specific. The categories could be broad at first ancient, medieval, renaissance, napoleaonic-regency-colonial, victorian, 20th century, or such and it would be easier to update the lists, just plug in and voila. For those times when duplication is valuable because the owner of said bibliographies addes subject information and comments that build on one another added lines crediting new author could be added below origninal book citation. I would like to volunteer, but truthfully I'm not sure I understand e-mail. Does anything like this sound possible, or a good idea to anyone here? It's just that reading through all the bibliographies which range in huge amounts of time periods and subject matter, with much duplication to find those little gems each individual author uncovered in my area of interest is not only time consuming, buy I tend to miss stuff because of the length and varied setups of each of the lists. Finally, my gratitude again to all involved in the bibliographies. Your servant, Teresa> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:19:06 -0400 From: "Laurie E. W. Brandt" Subject: Re: Swaybacks & corsets In message <950831135752_100545.3105_EHK33-5@CompuServe.COM> Dee Wilson writes: > ALison Kondo has written..... > > " I think the corsets were most of > the reason for that posture in the general population, though. > > Alison" > > I believe we should be very careful about assumming all late 19c women looked > like the fashion photographs of the time. In 100 years time historians might > look at 1995 newspapers and magazines and assume we all looked like the > fashion > models in the 1995 photographs. Hands up all those who have long legs going > up > to their arm pits, are Oh so thin, and have those high cheekbones - that's > what > the photographs show ! > > Dee Here is where the old family photo albums or college year books and the like comes in handy. Laurie E. W. Brandt ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 95 09:57:52 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: Swaybacks & corsets ALison Kondo has written..... " I think the corsets were most of the reason for that posture in the general population, though. Alison" I believe we should be very careful about assumming all late 19c women looked like the fashion photographs of the time. In 100 years time historians might look at 1995 newspapers and magazines and assume we all looked like the fashion models in the 1995 photographs. Hands up all those who have long legs going up to their arm pits, are Oh so thin, and have those high cheekbones - that's what the photographs show ! Dee ------------------------------ Date: 31 Aug 95 09:57:51 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: corsets and effect on body Sheridan Alder wrote ..... "I was idly leafing through a book called "French Undressing" on naughty French postcards c. 1900-1920, and I was staggered by the posture of the women in the postcards. They were so incredibly sway-backed that it hurt to look at them. Could not this have been the effect of wearing those "Gibson-Girl" S-shaped corsets of the period?" Yes, I am sure the models did look like the photographs. However, if you dare, look at present day pornographic pictures...some of the female models have shapes and sizes not encountered in real life ! If you talk to a professional photographer or a newspaper reporter they will tell you that in order to satisfy reader demand ( money) they will select the unusual model from 100 others use any number of tricks to disort the body for the few seconds necessary to take the photo use any number of photographic tricks to confuse the eye. (apart from that the camera never lies !) Dee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 95 11:47:56 PDT From: atlwrd1@peabody.sct.ucarb.com Subject: RE: Costuming Safety Katherine: If you would like additional information on Costuming Safety I suggest that you contact the following: Center for Safety in the Arts 5 Beekman Street New York, NY 10038 Attn: Michael F. McCann PhD, CIH 212-227-6220 CSA@TMN.COM They will send you a free copy of their newsletter and other information if you contact them. Last comment off topic. Terry L. Wass CIH, CSP - ------------------------------------- E-mail (office): atlwrd1@peabody.sct.ucarb.com E-mail (home): tmwass@main.citynet.net Date: 06/26/95 Time: 15:48:27 This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:34:48 -0500 (CDT) From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Subject: organizing bibliographies I am willing to encode/arrange/divide/whatever my 1840-1865 bibliography in any way that would be convenient. Just let me know how you want it done. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 12:49:01 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Corsets "Don't forget that 19C corsets had busks that curved which is one of the things that made them unhealthy." Could you clarify this? As far as I know, 17th & 18th century stays were worn with a busk made of wood. Some stay materials (whalebone, for instance) could break if bent too far. The busk made the front rigid so the wearer could not bend & break her stays as well as offering more support. For a 19th century corset, busk is the term used for a pair of wider stays, one with posts on it and the other with loops. This formed the front closure for the corset and the laces in the back were used to adjust & tighten the fit. I don't understand how the busk could make a corset unhealthy. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 11:38:20 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: More bibliographies for the archives! Susan Fatemi has graciously donated a copy of her bibliography for Eastern costume to the archives, and Vicki Betts has done the same with her bibliography on the 1840-1865 era. You can request copies of these by sending: get h-costume costume_bibliography_eastern_dress.faq get h-costume costume_bibliography_1840-1865.faq end as the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server will send you back the files. Teresa Shannon wrote: > Since the bibliographies are all rather long, and the more > bibliographies we get, the more duplication will inevitably creep in, I > would suggest a consolidation of all of the bibliographies divided then > into time period, general, and specific areas wherein each of the > recommended books could be coded to identify the contributor, if they so > desire. > > So we would see bibliography_costume_medieval_general > bibliography_1800s_general I try to do this now, within the constraints of each author's wishes. The problem we have with combining the bibliographies is that some authors/compilers wish their work to remain as is, and not be copied partially or wholly into another form. At least one author has donated a copy of her bibliography under the condition that it stay as is, and I will respect her wishes. We always of the option, of course, of simply not using or even listing her bib in the archives. For the authors that don't object to be recombined into possibly more useful formats, I have no objection whatsoever of seeing the bibs made more useful to h-costume users. > I would like to volunteer, but truthfully I'm not sure I understand e-mail. > Does anything like this sound possible, or a good idea to anyone here? It sounds both possible and a good idea, as long as we don't mess with those bibs whose authors wish them left intact. I'll cooperate with anyone undertaking this project in any way I can, in my capacity of list archive manager. Please keep me updated! Thanks! - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:31:13 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Swaybacks & Corsets Actually, I used a wide variety of pictorial sources, mostly photo's to make the generalization that the general figure shape was helped by the corset; not just "fashion" pics. I'm well aware that those are shot to sell clothing, not depict reality. However, there wasa factor I should have added about the swayback posture. If it was indeed a fashion started by a celebrity, in this case, Sarah Bernhardt, (at least this was claimed in one of her bio's, I'm trying to check through other sources), women may have mimiced the stance, no matter whast effect their corstry had on their bodies. This did happen in later decades of this century. In the hobbleskirt period, it was fashionable to let the backbone slump & pull the pelvis forward , in the 1920's, a legs apart "masculine" stance was favoured, & in the 1930's, it was again fashionable to to stand with the pelvis forward to minimize the rump, since a flat rear was fashionable. All these fads are documented by "Punch" satires in "The Way to Wear'em" (I don't know the author off hand). Possibly, once a stance became fashionable, corsetry may have been engineered to help women achieve the "correct" posture. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 18:16:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: Costuming Safety I am glad that someone else has more information on the LD50 test, my information was incomplete. However, the information is still important to know and I hope everyone takes a moment to scan these posts carefully before putting them in the trash. Thank you to all who took the time to add to my incomplete information, your posts will become part of the safety lecture that I am giving my class next week. Thank you, Kat Katherine L. Rodman Gainesville, FL afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu "Historical accuracy and costume design do not neccessarily go hand in hand" John Conklin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 15:17:40 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Viking clothing info. Have you read "Sarks, suomalaisia muinaispukuja (Ancient Finnish Costume) by Pirkko-Lehtosalo-Hilander, published by the Finnish Archeological Society, 1984? It covers Finnish grave finds to about AD 600 to the 13th C, with most of the information from the 11th, 12th & 13th C's. The text covers the actual finds of textiles & jewelry, interpetations & reproductions made from them, basic structure of costumes in Northern Europe, Pan-European trend of fashion, etc. Most of the clothing shown is for women. I've found it a very useful book. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:21:38 -0400 (EDT) From: BARBARASHU@delphi.com Subject: Re: Corsets It is my understanding that the swayback style was popular in the Edwardian, not the Victorian period. No? Barbara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 11:01:19 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: corset talk clarification In the discussions lately about corsets, tight lacing, and fitting into vintage clothes, three terms have been used: Victorian, 19th Century, and Vintage. Please remember that the 19th century lasted a long time and had lots & lots of fashion changes. Victoria ruled for most of it. Vintage seems to cover 19th & early 20th century clothes. It would help us to understand each other's points if we state specific years. The 19th century started with the regency/Napoleonic look of thin dresses with little to no corsetry! I'm sure I've been guilty of generalizing the 19th century as well, and I'll try to stop. For example, it was mentioned that 19thC reenactors say they don't need to lace tightly to get the right shape. Other sources say one has to train the waist from childhood in order to ger the right look. Most "19th C" reenacting is Civil War, the 1860's. The wasp waist was fashionable later in the century, I think starting in the 1880's. How would you know to start training a child's waist to be small in the 1860's so she will be fashionable as an adult, when the fashion has not happened yet? There have also been notes posted regarding people today who use corsets for non-historic reenactment purposes. They mention those who trained their waists to small sizes, and I'm sure most started as adults! -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 10:21:37 -0500 (EST) From: Betsy Perry Subject: Re: corset talk clarification Carol Kocian asked, > Most "19th C" reenacting is Civil War, the 1860's. The wasp waist > was fashionable later in the century, I think starting in the 1880's. > How would you know to start training a child's waist to be small in > the 1860's so she will be fashionable as an adult, when the fashion > has not happened yet? According to the sources I've read, children of both sexes were put into stays so that they would grow straight. Stays were seen as important devices for producing proper posture, so the mother of the 1860's didn't need a time machine to know that she was doing the best thing for her children by corseting them. The claims I've seen made are that these stays, worn throughout childhood, partially account for the far more sloping shoulder-line seen in fashion plates (which were artistically exaggerated, but did represent the ideal to which both sexes aspired) and in some surviving clothes from the 1830s up to the (1890s?) "New Woman" clothes with their square shoulder line. Betsy Hanes Perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 12:19:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: corset talk clarification > According to the sources I've read, children of both sexes were put > into stays so that they would grow straight. Stays were seen as > important devices for producing proper posture, so the mother of the > 1860's didn't need a time machine to know that she was doing the best > thing for her children by corseting them. The claims I've seen made > are that these stays, worn throughout childhood, partially account for > the far more sloping shoulder-line seen in fashion plates (which were > artistically exaggerated, but did represent the ideal to which both > sexes aspired) and in some surviving clothes from the 1830s up to the > (1890s?) "New Woman" clothes with their square shoulder line. I am not sure how much stays and corsets were really used - and certaily not on VERY young children. In 8 Cousins by Louisa May Alcott, Rose's uncle won't let her aunt give her an outfit with a corset - but she is already a teenager. And, while this behavior is considered a bit unusual, it is not considered absolutely unusual. Furthermore, she is already a teenager - NOT a young child. Jaelle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:22:49 -0700 From: unicorn@calweb.com (Joan Broneske) Subject: 1870's-1880's dress I would like to make an 1870's-1880's dress, with cuirasse bodice, bustle, etc. Any ideas, patterns, suggestions, fabrics, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 10:07:11 -0700 From: CBecht@lmumail.lmu.edu (Cynthia Becht) Subject: Re: corset talk clarification >>>>>>> I am not sure how much stays and corsets were really used - and certaily not on VERY young children. In 8 Cousins by Louisa May Alcott, Rose's uncle won't let her aunt give her an outfit with a corset - but she is already a teenager. And, while this behavior is considered a bit unusual, it is not considered absolutely unusual. Furthermore, she is already a teenager - NOT a young child. >>>>>>> I don't claim to have any scholarly expertise on the history of costume - which is why I'm basically a fascinated lurker - but I do know a bit about Louisa May Alcott; enough to suspect that with her strongly feminist leanings (that her editors always tried to cover up by insisting she marry off her most independent heroines), the characters of Rose and her enlightened, nonconformist uncle are illustrations of an ideal upbringing in Alcott's mind, rather than an historically accurate portrayal of what a large number of people were doing fashion-wise at the times. Her voice was certainly amongst a group's which condemned corsets and other things, but how prevalent was that thinking? I did love that bit, though, when Rose is asked, in her most elegant walking-dress finery, by her uncle how she would ever escape from a mad dog in that get-up and she promptly falls over her skirts in her efforts to prove him wrong. I was always disappointed by his practical Bloomer-esque (? my memory is foggy on the details) alternative which rated the aesthetic equivalent of pajamas in my younger mind. Anyhow, costume details in fictional works are as prone to artistic license, I assume, as those in paintings, etc. - Cynthia Becht cbecht@lmumail.lmu.edu ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #173 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!