From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #177 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Sunday, September 10 1995 Volume 3, Number 177 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Using cotton instead of linen 1835 Suit (Done) Re: Corsets, Footbinding, Etc. Etc. Re: Lady's Gallery Re: list sequins toga Toga! Re: sequins Re: toga Ferris Waists/liberty bodices What happens to comments ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 09:22:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Using cotton instead of linen > I am interested in the affect of substituting cotton for linen in > recreating historical costuming. What should be looked for in the > cotton to make it look and hang similarly to the linen? What are the > differences in the structure of these fibers that will affect there use? > Will there be a noticeable comfort difference? > > I am specifically interested in using modern cottons instead of early > medieval linen. However, I would welcome any response on this topic. > This is like asking if you can substitute beef or pork for a chicken recipe. Some substitutions are easier than others. Many fabrics were designed to replace and look like others. Cotton and linen and I would venture wool are kind of like the carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen of the universe, vastly different building blocks for the universe. Silk could co in there too, but it is so versatile many have woven silk to duplicate cotton, wool, and linen. In fact, I have silk broadcloth, silk/linen, and silk/wool, all of which are heavenly all look like the non-silk partner and drape a little better than any of them. The silk/linen a 45/55 mix doesn't wrinkle as much as linen, washes up slightly softer and in all other respects is linen. Anyway, substituting cotton for linen is downgrading linens qualities. People have made excellent suggestions on cotton ramie, or even a possible cotton/linen mix, and I would try them, but take the bolt next to the 100% linen bolt and drap both side-by-side and across your body (account for sizing causing stiffness). I would recommend the following. It is often easier to buy wholesale, or even from mailordering from a supply that sells lots of linen, not the local JoAnn or Minnesota Fabrics. Ask your friends if they would go in on some linen with you. If you each bought four or eight yards you could order 20-50 yards at a great price, perhaps 5-10$ a yard. This is how I generally order my silk now with one or two other people to get the wholesale price for all of us. Several people have mentioned good places to get linen on the newsgroup, call the stores for wholesale prices and request the minimum yardage or money order for wholesale orders. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 95 08:18:45 PDT From: Sue Wall Subject: 1835 Suit (Done) IT'S DONE, FINISHED. I finished my Husbands suit, Thanks to all of you who offered support and help. The sleeves went right in with the trick I learned right here. It fit perfect and looked great. He got a lot of compliments from everybody at the Rendoezvous. He was the best looking Booshway. He wore a top hat and carried a walking stick. He was period even down to his underclothes. Now! Next years project will be a ball dress for me. If I don't get caught up making suits. Iv'e had offers. - ------------------------------------- Name: Sue Wall E-mail: Sue Wall Date: 09/08/95 Time: 08:18:45 This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 08:46:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Corsets, Footbinding, Etc. Etc. This is simply a wonderful discussion for this group. This is definitely a grey subject area without a real academic consensus as to how certain twelfth century garments were constructed. There is much talk on the artistic license of the time because the representations in manuscript, embroidery and statuary are very stylized and not of realistic representation. I have seen mention of the allegorical significance of portrayls of the time period where dressing a woman in the long gown with small pleats and a crown on the head would have signified the connection with heaven and the virgin, and maynot be representational of actual clothing worn by that person. In Crocker-Owens book, which granted only goes into the 11th century, she cites neither archaeological evidence, not literary evidence of a stiff foundation garment, and does mention the allegorical symbolism in human portrayls of the time. However, I will go back this weekend and read that book, I certainly could have missed the reference. A friend of mine trying to do private research on this just subject went and saw that statuette and as many as she could find, and tried to look at the backs when ever she could. Her opinion was of a three piece dress with the second piece curving under the breasts and connected to the skirt at the bottom, with that piece being heavily pleated across it. I tried this out, with side lacing, and it did give a very pleasing figure, but I'm not sure that explains everything. Another friend of mine suggested the corselet "jacket." I believe there are examples of women representations that do have a possible armsyce, and I have seen the friend try examples of short sleeved corselets that certainly gave a beautiful shape. She had apparently come across a twelfth century tailors book that showed the cut of a bliaut. A college roommate of hers was from the Netherlands, old name. When they were graduating, the friends father came to visit and asked if he would like her to bring anything from home. Home consisted of a nice chateau and a library labeled as a national treasure for renaissance and medieval manuscripts. The roommate said M. (the friend will be M.) was into medieval sewing, and the father apparently brought this actual manuscript showing this. Any way, I think only the bliaut was mentioned that she took a pattern from, not a corselet or foundation garment. Of course I don't thing she reads Old frisian or flemish either. I respect the source but it certainly sounds like she is saying a foundation garment makes sense because foundation garments seem common in her study, not based on any evidence to say there ever was one. Knowing how unstructured the clothing was prior to this time, and how there were apparently none after this time, I would only beg for evidence from tombs and graves that would show the clothing, because if they had foundation garments they would probably have used them in the burial of an important person. This is not my area of expertise, perhaps someone else? On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, Carol Kocian wrote: > Here is *a* reference, if not *the* reference that I found. It is > in Blanche Payne's A History Of Costume, copyright 1965. This was my > Costume History textbook in college in 1980, so I did own it when I > made the corset/footbinding connection. > On page 165, regarding a 12thC (mid century) Queen of Sheba > statue from the Church of Notre Dame de Corbeil (in the Louvre), and > statues of the same era of queens in the West Portal of Chartres > Cathedral, Payne writes: > "The bliaut, which for a time replaced the gown of previous > centuries, has had numerous interpretations. Viollet-de-Duc's > conception of a bliaut, corsage or corselet, and broad girdle has > long been accepted. (Here she footnotes Viollet-de-Duc, > Dictionnaire Raisonne du Mobilier Francais, Bance, Edutuer, Paris, > 1858, vol.III, p.43) "However, close examination of the > sculptured figures from Chartres suggests a simpler explanation. > The queens' costumes reproduced in Figs. 166 and 176 show no > evidence of the armscye of a corselet and no indication of the > wide, fitted, corset-like girdle. The smooth cloth over the > queen's bust merges naturally and without a break into the > horizontal folds of the fabric. In Fig. 166 the queen's mantle > covers her shoulders, but there is no reason to suppose that she > is wearing the wide constricting girdle over her bliaut. The > general consensus is that she was wearing some sort of firm > foundation garment under it." > > The actual reference to the undergarment "stiffened with paste" > was found in a library. It sounds like that author was part of the > "general consensus". I remember being surprised by it. Considering > that Payne cites a source from 1858, perhaps the writer was adding > the bias of the times; that a queen would wear a stiff undergarment. > > On Tue, 5 Sep 1995, Teresa Shannon wrote, > > 11th and 12th century noblewomen may have worn a corselet oftentimes, a > > tightly laced sleeved outer (only sometimes stiffened with reeds) > > "jacket" .... > > This sounds like what Payne was referring to above. Of course, if > the corselet had sleeves, there would be no armscye to find. > > I wrote: > > As for the beginning dates of corsetry, I remember reading about > > bodies made of two layers of fabric & stiffened with paste, worn in > > the gothic medieval era to keep a straight, smooth shape. Definitely > > not a waist-pincher! > > Perhaps "bodies" was the wrong word to use, since it is a later- > period term. I don't remember what the mystery author called the > garment. Didn't recognize the term, sorry. I am pretty positive they didn't use them in the fourteenth century, so I would be ignorant of the Elizabethan terms. > > On Tue, 5 Sep 1995, Teresa Shannon wrote, (regarding footbinding) > > I saw this marvelous documetary in China (by Westerners) who asked > > many surviving foot-bound women, some that still had them bound, > > about binding the falling out of favor, .... > > Teresa, do you remember what the women said about it? Yes, among some of the comments were: woman pointing to daughter-in-law's feet saying "You never could have gotten a husband with such big feet." And even when foot-binding became illegal, "I was proud I had such small feet, why would I change that?" And asking them if it was painful, "Yes, my feet hurt, but I don't have to walk on them anymore."(Her son had gotten a bicycle rickshaw and could take his mother to the local rural opera). Mothers don't have to work much after their son gets married. The uterine family structure then burdens the daughter-in-law, who has zero status until she produces a son and can lord it over her daughter-in-law. I think the daughter-in-law was satisfied that she didn't have to have her feet bound, even if they were ugly. > Anyway, the direct quote from one source is above. It's true that > some costume history books have lots of "made up" facts. I did learn > to be critical, but I found the information in more than one place! > Also, Payne was selected by our professor for the class for the very > reason that she was accurate & used good illustrations. > -Carol Kocian I think this area needs a lot more research, and seeing as how victorians misinterpreted grossly the corset term for the fourteenth century (which, even if it isn't a cloak is certainly not a form-fitting undergarment!) I wouldn't be surprised by any misinterpretation carried on. The article raises several possiblities, however that could be explored. Also, a variety of the corselet, non-corselet may be the answer, different countries, and cultures, different styles may have allowed variations to exist, so check all the pictures you can find on 11-12th century womens dresses for tell-tale signs, or allegorical uses. Thank you for finding the source, I wish I had the book to read also. What is your personal opinion regarding this? Teresa ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 1995 09:48:38 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Lady's Gallery Reply to: RE>Lady's Gallery Sounds like a fascinating magazine. Where did you find it? Carole Newson-Smith - -------------------------------------- From: Deborah Tarsiewicz - 3528981 I have finally seen an issue of Lady's Gallery. What a wonderful costume resource this journal is for costume makers and historians. The particular issue I saw had clear, color photos of Fortuny (sp?) gowns. There was also artwork and black and white photos of Victorians dressed in masquerade ball costumes. I only wish I had discovered this magazine sooner. On a related note, does anyone have an extra or know where I can obtain volume I, number I of Lady's Gallery. The magazine itself offers back issues but is sold out of the very first issue. Thanks for reading! Deborah Tarsiewicz Riverside, CA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 19:52:11 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: list What people typically think of as 'Burgundian' does not typically apply to 13th Century (1200's) clothing, where buttons may not appear at all. Even in the 1300's buttons were not always frequent until late in the century, and these were fabric 'wad' buttons (see the Museum of London's "Textiles and Clothing") although metal buttons were used, the shanks being passed through an eyelet and secured from the back by a thong passing through the shank. Also, on the pourpoint of Charles the Bald (1300's) the buttons are wadded fabric covered with the 'fashion fabric' that is the silk brocade of the garment, most are quite round but some are pressed flat from (we assume) wear under armor. Earlier (1200) examples from Scandinavian finds are a single bead used to close the neck of a garment. Please contact me if Ican be of any further help. 814-684-1232 Brenda PS this is direct because I can't remember how to post to the list, and I couldnt let you go with out advice. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 95 03:54:00 From: "Gina Balestracci" Subject: sequins Regarding materials from which sequins have been made, (what a horrible way to begin a sentence!) I've seen a print of Whistler-ish fin de siecle portrait of an opera singer or actress, I can't remember which (and I can't remember when I saw it), who's in this wonderful iridescent-looking cape. The cape is covered with "sequins" that are made out of some sort of bug wings--a sort of beetle, I believe. I think that this was an Arts & Crafts Movement/Aesthetic Dress Mvt. thing. I think the Chinese have also used this--it may, in fact, have come out of the fascination with things eastern during the end of the 19th century. gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 11:08:29 -0700 From: mudruner@MO.NET Subject: toga I am very interested in information concerning the roman toga. once a year i through a party for a select group of interesting friends who are academically inclined. this year the theme is greco roman. I would like to make a toga and have very little time (several days). any information would be greatly appreciated. ie length, width, curvature, colors etc. thank you ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Sep 1995 16:05:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Questions are a burden to others; answers are a prison to ones self" Subject: Toga! >I am very interested in information concerning the roman toga. >once a year i through a party for a select group of interesting friends who are academically inclined. >this year the theme is greco roman. >I would like to make a toga and have very little time (several days). >any information would be greatly appreciated. >ie length, width, curvature, colors etc. Gee, I knew 5 years of Latin would come in handy. :) First off, under every toga was a tunica, basically a chemise that was about knee length. Most togas were made of wool, rather impractical for this day and age. Go with cotton. Makes life much more confortable. The shape of a toga is trapezodial with the biggest ones being about the size of 10x10 wall. Several servants were specially trained in wrapping this sort of toga. They started wrapping from underneath the right arm and over the left. At the end of the wrapping, you should have your right arm free with the excess over your left arm. Usually, no pins were used in holding the toga on. The weight of the material and the drape kept it in place. There were many styles of togas depending on who you were and what you did. Only Roman citizens were allowed to wear togas and women did not wear them. (They weren't citizens even if they were Roman. They wore Stolas.) A Toga Canidictus was washed with white chalk and buffed to give it a white shine. These were worn by canidates running for office. The Toga Senatoris (I think) was a white toga with a wide red boarder worn by the senators. The Toga Praetoris was a purple toga worn by the Roman rulers. Only the rulers, praetors, could wear purple. I don't know of any books that have info on draping. We always had to use pins in Latin conferences. Deb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 15:09:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Re: sequins Beetle wings are and have been used in embroidery for some time. They are still available through some supply sources. Our local bead store has them, expensive. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 01:28:07 -0400 From: MerrimacGA@aol.com Subject: Re: toga To: mudruner@MO.NET -- How authentic would you like to get? If you want to be more realistic, I know of a book that is helpful. It's titled A Survey of Historic Costume by Phyllis Tortora and Keith Eubank. Published in New York by Fairchild Publications in 1990. It has a section on Roman costume with, if memory serves, diagrams of how to drape a toga. It gives names and descriptions of various articles of clothing worn by the Romans. In case your preference is Etruscan or Greek, the book has sections on their clothing as well. I found this book listed under costumes at my local library and it wasn't a 'reference only' book so I was able to check it out (for almost 2 months as a matter of fact -- very informative book). Anyway, try that or any book with a lot of pictures (statues, paintings, etc) from Roman times. Books about Julius or Augustus Caesar should give you something to go on as well. For material, I would recommend any of the following for authenticity: lightweight wool, linen or cotton (yes, they had it back then but be careful...many of today's cotton fabrics would be inappropriate on the basis of their look +/or the way they hang). Also, some people amongst the very rich wore silk. It was imported from the East and was very, very costly and very, very rare in Rome. Should be cheaper for you today though not by much. One recommendation: the Toga is very simple to make. The problem is in the drape. Romans, Etruscans and Greeks used clothing as a showing of status in society. With the Romans, the more detailed and structured the drape combined with parts of the garment being sewn, the more rich the fabric and certain decorations used -- all these factors pointed directly at the wealth and status of the Roman. And Romans were very insistent upon people portraying their position in society appropriately. Hope this helps. Mary Macdonald ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 95 11:48:09 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: Ferris Waists/liberty bodices Sandy Staebell wrote recently regarding ads in late 19C magazines for Ferris Waists, ***** All the ad copy borrows some of the buzz words of the dress reform movement -- health and comfort, recommended by physicians, etc. ***** The ads I have seen around 1890/1910 also mention support. I have seen a child's (6- 8 yrs) buttoned bodice of around 1890 and it is not a garment that we would consider desirable today. It certainly looks warm, necessary in draughty houses with no central heating. The 1890 bodice is not boned, nor does it lace, but it is substantial and unyielding. Was this garment a toned down version of the adult corset ? The ads show these garments for girls, not boys. Boys, being stonger, did not need support ? Dee ------------------------------ Date: 10 Sep 95 11:48:20 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: What happens to comments ? Fran Grimble asked recently ***** Dee Wilson has been asking for, and receiving, comments and information on the wearing of corsets for use in a book she is writing. My question is: What will be done with this information? ***** First, let me say that I think this is a very reasonable question, and I am happy to answer it. Yes, I am collecting material for a book, although it is a very slow business. Of course, I wish to quote original sources. It is not my intention use the information I gain on the NET directly. Somehow "someone, who I know nothing about, told me on the NET that......." does not stand up to criticism. So, why ask questions on the NET ? Well, I have gained references to orginal sources that I would not have otherwise found. Second, reading replies from people who cast new views on the topic is stimulating and informative. Of course, I do not accept everything I read ! I do not normally quote names of present day sources in my work - the exceptions are rare and by special agreement, and I have a copyright form to cover the legal aspects. Also, with tongue in cheek, I find some replies to my question on wearing 19C corsetry confirm my views that we often judge the past my our standards of today. I am happy to continue this discussion by private Email if you wish. Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #177 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!