From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #178 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, September 11 1995 Volume 3, Number 178 Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Corsets & rib removal Cotton vs. Linen Ferris Waists & Boys Fair use Re: Fair use "The Buccanneers" Re: sequins Re: toga Re: Footbinding, Suttee and Parting, like Death, is not the end Yet More on Corsetry needed - buffalo buttons RE: Sequins Re: Suttee and Footbinding (etc.) RE: needed - buffalo buttons RE: "The Buccanneers" Re: Corsets ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 13:39:10 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Corsets & rib removal On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, Dorothy Stein wrote: > Nothing daunted, some women actually had ribs removed in order to > be able to lace even tighter. Oliver Jensen's book, The Revolt of > American Women, contains a photograph of an actress named Anna Held > who apparently had this done. Does anyone have any actual documentation of rib removal to allow tighter lacing of the corset? I find it hard to believe in an era where abdominal surgery was almost a death sentence. (We're not talking about a nose job or a collagen injection here.) I've seen the 1890's era photographs of women posing in their corsets with very tiny waists. I heard that the photos were frequently touched-up, painted in at the sides to make the waist appear smaller than it actually was. The photos I've seen always had the waist against a black background. On a photographic negative, one would merely have to scrape away the emulsion to enlarge the black area, thus reducing the size of the waist. I would love to hear about proof either way - an original photograph or negative that has obwiously been touched up, or an account of someone who actually underwent surgery. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 14:13:49 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Cotton vs. Linen I heard that cotton vs. linen was discussed earlier on this file. I've been reading the back issues, but haven't gotten there yet. This is my take on cotton vs. linen, particularly as regards 18th C. (American Revolution and French & Indian War) reenacting. For new members to reenacting, I recommend making the clothing out of linen. Yes, cotton was available at the time. But when you go into a fabric store: 90% of the linen you see will be appropriate. (Most of it is in natural-dye colors, mostly solids with a few stripes, and the occasional figure-weave or print.) 10% of the cotton you see will be appropriate. (There are prints, day-glow colors, lots of different weights, and blends.) Appropriate meaning similar to something that existed in the 18th Century. Linen is seldom blended with synthetics. Cotton is frequently blended with polyester. Sometimes the sign on the rack will say "cotton", but you have to look on the bolt end to see whether or not it is 100%. As for using cotton for a shift that will not (or barely) be seen: I had a friend who wore a cotton shift. We were walking through a field in the fall with lots of dry plant matter on it. Branches were sticking to her shift, (it was ankle-length, should have been calf- length) but I had no such problem. I asked her if her shift had any polyester in it. She said the fabric was labelled as cotton. So I'm not sure if the cotton was picking up the brush or if the problem was due to a synthetic. Has anyone else noticed what fibers do or do not pick up brush, stain, etc. when used in a long skirt worn outdoors? -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 15:50:21 CDT From: SANDY STAEBELL Subject: Ferris Waists & Boys Dee Wilson's post on the fact that most ads show waists for girls rather than boys raises interesting questions about gender differences even at that young age. My question is (and I have no definite opinion) can we reasonably infer that ads that include copy naming infants and children are selling waists designed for children of both sexes? The Double Vee Waist that I mentioned in a previous post does mention boys as well as girl (ages 3 to 10 years). I think the choice of such wording definitely opens up the possibility that manufacturers hoped mothers would dress young boys in waists. Perhaps pictures of young girls were used instead of boys because mothers would most likely dress their daughters in waists before they would their sons. Sandy Staebell staebsl@wkuvx1.wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 95 17:14:04 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Fair use Actually, the number of words acceptable for fair use relates to the length of the original work and the proportion of it used. It is illegal to quote the whole, or even most of, a short work such as a poem or e-mail message, whereas the same number of words quoted from a book might be OK. You are wrong in saying plagiarism is an ethical, not a legal violation. It is a form of copyright infringement and as such, a violation of federal law. Also, I don't think people should bear the entire responsibility for protecting themselves from being ripped off. Since the ripoff is illegal and unethical, others should bear responsibility for not doing it. I have seen messages from people on the net whose works were used as-is as articles by journalists who were paid for the articles as if _they_ had written them. I don't think we should accept a philosophy of "it's okay for anybody to use anything I post on the net for their own professional profit" as the natural price for the entertainment and enlightenment we get from participating in discussion groups. I'm not accusing Dee Wilson of ripping anybody off. I have no idea what, if anything, she plans to do with the corset information. I am merely inquiring. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 00:09:26 -0400 From: Tracy023@aol.com Subject: Re: Fair use On Sept. 10 Fran Grimble wrote: [words deleted] >I have >seen messages from people on the net whose works were used >as-is as articles >by journalists who were paid for the articles as if _they_ had >written them. Fran, Could you please provide specifics on this? Plagerism is an automatic firing offense at newspapers and has been for decades. I am able to contact the editors of most reputable daily newspapers and I know action against any journalist who plagerized would be swift and certain. Please give me the information and I promise you, it will be dealt with. Thanks very much. Tracy 023@aol.com P.S. Any instance of plagerism also will be reported by the various watchdog journals, including the Columbia Journalism Review. I cannot emphasize enough how seriously plagerism is treated and how decisively editors will act on your facts. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 08:32:19 CDT From: "Cindy Abel" Subject: "The Buccanneers" In October in the U.S., Masterpiece Theatre will be showing a dramatization of Edith Wharton's "The Buccanneers." My question is two-fold(perhaps three-fold): Has this been shown in the U.K. yet, and if so, are the circa 1875 costumes authentic? Who did the costumes, as in the "trailer" I've seen, most look straight out of the pages of the high-fashion magazines of the day? Also, does anyone on the list have any details on how, especially the women's costumes were done as I love the bustles of the 1870's and 1890's, though it takes a lot of practice to move and sit in those gowns without looking stiff. The "Buccanneers" of the title appear to be able to even run in some of their gowns and are properly corseted and bustled even. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 10:12:34 -0400 From: Carol Bier Subject: Re: sequins Going back a few days' discussion to the origins of the word sequin, it should be pointed out that, indeed, Ottoman coins (usually the copper issues) were often used as decoration for bride's hats, and occasionally for the upper body garment of women throughout the Ottoman Empire. Palestinian dress today still employs coins for decoration. I have also seen blanks used in the same way. They are pierced, and sewed to the garment. The history of using metal bracteates for garment decoration goes back at least to the first millenium B.C. in the ancient Near East, with plenty of examples extant from Iran, Anatolia (Turkey), Afghanistan, and the steppes of Central Asia. Carol Bier, Curator, Eastern Hemisphere Collections The Textile Museum, 2320 S Street, NW Washington, D.C. 20008 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 19:05:15 -0400 From: KenDawe@aol.com Subject: Re: toga The best advice I can giove you is to look at Colleen McCullough's books on amcient Rome: "The First Man In Rome", "The Grass Crown", or "Fortune's Favorites." In the glossary in the rear, she writes: toga The garment only a full citizen of Rome was entitled to wear. Made of lightweight wool, it had a peculiar shape (which is why togate "Romans" of Holywood movies never look right.) After exhaustive and brilliant experimentation, Dr. Lillian Wilson of Johns Hopkins worked out a size and shape which producved a perfect loking toga. To fit a man 5 feet 9 (175 cm) inches tall having a waist 36 inches (89.5 cm), th etoga was about 15 feet (4.6m) wide and 7 feet 6 inches (2.25m) long. The length measurement is draped on the man's height axis and the much bigger width measurement is wrapped around him. . . . . .The Republican toga of the last century B.C. was very large (the size varied considerably during the thousand years it was the customary garb of the Romans). And a man draped in his toga could *not* have worn a loncloth or other undergarment! {The ellipsis is for her drawing. If I could figure out how to reproduce her drawing of the toga, I would, but it is NOT a rectangle! Get one hof the books and copy the drawing to scale. KCD} She goes on: Toga candida: The specially whitened toga worn by those seeking office as an elected magistrate. It's stark whiteness was acheived by bleaching the garment in the sun for many days, then workinbg finely powdered chalk through it. Toga praetexta: The purple bordered toga of a curule magistrate. {I.e., certain mgistratres who sat in curule chairs. KCD} Continued to be worn by these men after their term in office was over. Also worn by children of both sexes. Toga trabea: Cicero's "particolored toga". It was the striped toga of the augur, and likely the pontifex also. Like the toga preatexta it had a purple bordar all the way around it, but it was also striped in broad bands of altyernating red and purple down it's length. Toga virilis: The plain white toga of the Roman male. It was also called the toga alba and the toga pura. Sorry for the length of this, but you now know what I do about togae... :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 11:16:46 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: Footbinding, Suttee and Parting, like Death, is not the end I refer those interested in sutte to my article 'Women to Burn: Suttee as a Normative Institution' in SIGNS, Autumn, 1978. This is an old article but I have reviewed many books and articles on the subject since and feel the basic argument still stands. A summary and a discussion of the 'brideburning' issue may be found in D. Stein, 'Burning Widows...' in *Pacific Affairs*, Fall, 1988. The practice of suttee, like footbinding, had many aspects, and native as well as foreign critics. Some of the most important elements included property rights, social status and, of course, the sexuality of women. It is hard to tell which had more impact on women's lives, since over time both spread from the upper classes (or castes) throughout the social system, but while suttee (even when emulated by lower castes) never affected more than a very small proportion of the population, footbinding (which also occasionally had a fatal outcome from infection and gangrene) was far more pervasive. (Incidentally, recent attempts to glorify suttee - - like dowry, glorification as well as suttee is against Indian law - and revive it have largely occurred among castes who did not traditionally practice it.) It is hard to know what is meant by Teresa's statement that the widow became 'casteless'. According to Dharmasastra (a type of scripture formulated early in the first millenium AD), all women had the status of Shudras (i.e., members of the fourth or servant caste ['varna'; what most Indians mean when they talk about caste is 'jati', originally a ranked occupational grouping]). However, for most purposes the widow remained part of her own caste, in that, for example, high status widows could not remarry, while the low castes and those below the varna system could and did. The problem became what to do with an unmarriageable and, it was thought, sexually uncontrolled woman of high status. (In Indian villages, 'Brahmin widow is a synonym for prostitute.) Reformers east and west thought the best solution was marriage or occupational therapy. Before Diane comes down on too much off-topic discursiveness, let me point out that the widow's penitential life and, strikingly, dress, was a sign, not of castelessness, but of sin. Not only was her head shaved but she could wear only the drabbest of saris, no jewelry, flowers or ornaments, not even a blouse, which was a late and newfangled addition, considered rather fast among the orthodox. It was believed that the surviving widow was always responsible for her husband's death (otherwise she would have died first, as nature intended) by her unchastity, if not in the current life then in a former one. The only way she could refute the charge was by being immolated in a state of perfection - wearing fancy clothes, I hasten to add - and even menstruation was considered a temporary state of unchastity. The employment of various persuasive devices, rituals and practices, which might include drugging and tying, incidentally, hint that, despite the ideology, the attitude to death of many Indians is, and always was, not too different from our own. A great deal of currently venerated 'cultural differences' consist in different styles of hypocracy. - -- Dorothy Stein ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:50:21 +0000 From: "/R=HOASYS/R=A1/U=RICHARDS GILLIAN/TN=(02) 716 3712/FFN=GILLIAN RICHARDS/"@mr.isd1.tafensw.edu.au Subject: Yet More on Corsetry Two points I feel worth bringing up: 1) I attended a talk on how the Australian Opera made their costumes, and one of the questions (OK - it was mine) was how do they make a waspwaisted costume and still allow the singer to breathe properly. They would make the costume out of a one-coloured fabric (not counting laces, trim, etc). Before any of the trimmings were added, they would: a) Pad the bust a little bigger b) leave the waist just 'firmly' wrapped (eg full inflation possible) c) Pad the hips a little d) (this is the beaut bit!) Then use a spray-paint a little darker than the material to shade under each arm in a long diamond to the bottom of the hips. THen add your laces, trims, collars, etc. THe effect is stunning - La Stupenda became La Slenda! (A minor exaggeration) (maybe I should sell it as a diet aid - look three inches thinner in ten minutes! ;-) The other point - think of the photos of the older Queen Victoria - if (as I have been told) she was actually bigger around the waist than she was tall, then I severly doubt that all women tightlaced - she at least was a major exception. As to foot-binding - grab a hold of "Wild Swans" by Jung Chang, and agonise over what her grandmother went through in the name of beauty. Gillian Richards ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 08:28:00 -0700 (PDT) From: suetoo@oes.amdahl.com (Sue Toorans) Subject: needed - buffalo buttons A friend of mine (without internet access) is making her husband a frock coat. They've decided that they need buffalo head nickel buttons. They would love to have buttons made from actual nickels but would accept an accurate reproduction. These buttons need to be of the domed and shanked variety. They need ten of them. Can anyone help me help them find them? - -- Sue acting Cerberus suetoo@oes.amdah.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 09:35:55 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Sequins | I believe the Elizabethan term is spangles. They tend to be made from brass | and are generally seen on the backgrounds of black work embroidery of the | geometric fill stitch type. They are usually attached by one or more | threads going through the central hole and over the top of the sequin into | the ground. I have seen other examples that were silver and attached by being pounded into the fabric with a hammer or mallet. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 12:15:00 PDT From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: Suttee and Footbinding (etc.) Dorothy Stein writes the following: >..... However, for most purposes the widow remained part of her own caste, >in that, for example, high status widows could not remarry, while the low >castes and those below the varna system could and did. I was in India this past year and a number of people talked about girls who were married at a very young age (the youngest was 3), who were to live at home until puberty, at which time they were to join their husband's households, but who became widows before that happened. In all those cases, they were not able to marry again, and in a few cases, converted to Christianity, thereby giving up their caste (but still not remarrying!). This was in Andhra Pradesh, and I don't know the caste(s) of the women in question, so they may or may not have been high caste, and practices in other parts of India may well vary. >Before Diane comes down on too much off-topic discursiveness, let me point >out that the widow's penitential life and, strikingly, dress, was a sign, >not of castelessness, but of sin. Not only was her head shaved but she >could wear only the drabbest of saris, no jewelry, flowers or ornaments, >not even a blouse, which was a late and newfangled addition, considered >rather fast among the orthodox. One of the striking forms of adornment in Andhra Pradesh are many, many glass bangles ($.15 US for 12 when I was there), and every girl and woman, no matter how poor, had at least a few. When a woman was widowed, however, all her glass bangles were broken and she was never again allowed to wear them. On the topic of dowries, my sister asked the driver who was taking us to various places, and who was a Christian, if he was expecting to be paid a dowry when he married. He said that he wouldn't consider marrying without one, although he also intended to marry for love! Just goes to show how well all the governmental reforms are working, and how various cultural expectations mix! - - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 11:00:45 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: needed - buffalo buttons The best source for buffalo head nickle buttons are through suttlers which supply old west reenactors. We see them at large Single Action Shooting Society events and Large gunshows like the Great Western Gunshow held at the LA fairegrounds in May and November. They are also sometimes available at Mountain Man Rendezvous. Even for non-gun ethusiasts, these events have a variety of costume and militaria-oriented items for sale, such as vintage clothing, beads, buttons, hats, daggers, jewelry, and medals...Sorry I don't have more specifics --julie a. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 11:24:24 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: "The Buccanneers" There are a few of us who even do Old West Combat shooting in our bustles and corsets. There are numerous pictures of ranch women, "Western Girls", doing everything from bull-dogging and branding to riding/shooting tricks in their everyday clothing. Usually they would ride side-saddle. The key is that usually the skirts were shortened to calf-length and gators used to protect the calf and ankles, mostly to prevent the fabric entangling in legs or brush. From my perspective, a period woman would no more run around corset-less, as I would bra-less. Depending on your personal build, it would be very uncomfortable. Collapsible bustles are the most comfortable for this kind of activity. For riding outfits the bustle is minimized to stiffened fabric. There are a number of examples of clothing for sporting activities in Harpers, as well as good pattern and construction examples in the Hunnisett book. There are a number of commercial patterns available through Amazon Drygoods or Raiments for those periods (I assume you meant 70s and _80s_ bustle periods.) During these periods, there are a lot more examples of farm wives and even indians in european clothes with full corset and bustle, than corsetless. It is very obvious in the fit of the clothing. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 11:40:15 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: Corsets I was reading some archives last week and someone mentioned that the small waist in Elizabethan England was somehow related to Elizabeth's Virginity. I just wanted to point out, in general, that England is 20-50 years behind European fashion during the medieval and renaissance periods. The popularity of small waists can be seen in Spain, France, and Germany from the late 1400's. See examples in paintings of Lucas Cranach or Lady and the Unicorn tapestries. BTW, the small waist effects seem to be created both with and without corsets. Some German renaissance gowns, from the Book of Trades, by Jost Amman, show gowns inside out, and seem to have some kind of built in supportage with scoops for the breasts. We have many examples of women with their gowns open and breasts showing (the many Judith paintings), which show no evidence of a chemise or corset, yet others definitely seem to have some kind of support. PS: Some of us don't define the Renaissance by England, [the cone-shape bodice seems optional in much of the rest of Europe] ...:) --julie a. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #178 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!