From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #179 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, September 12 1995 Volume 3, Number 179 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Submissions to the list: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/removes/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Sense and Sensibility? Re: Fair use and copyrights, etc. for this list... Re: Suttee and Footbinding (etc.) RE: "The Buccanneers" Re: Togas Re: Buccaneers Re: Sense and Sensibility? COSTUME: Victoria's waist Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset RE: Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset RE: Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset boning in Italian Renaissance clothing Fair use Fair use Re: Fair use Lady's Gallery ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 13:17:45 -0700 From: Alexandra.Ohlson@Eng.Sun.COM (Alexandra Rankin Ohlson) Subject: Sense and Sensibility? Having just heard that The Buccanneers is due to come to Masterpiece Theater soon, perhaps you can also verify - I've heard rumor that Emma Thompson and Hugh Grant are to be in a remake of Sense and Sensibility. One of my favorite costuming periods. Anyone know about this? alexandra ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 13:25:55 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Fair use and copyrights, etc. for this list... So far we've been operating on the honor system as far as use of the h-costume posts and files goes, as everyone knows. Personally I operate on the principle that posts belong to the original authors of those posts and that permission must be obtained from those authors before reprinting the posts (or portions of the post) elsewhere. To make this a little clearer for those accessing our archives, I'm instituting the following policy immediately. Every h-costume digest produced from now on will bear the following statement: Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. This applies to reprinting the posts in journals or to other lists, etc. It doesn't mean, of course, you have to seek permission before quoting an article when following up to it for this same list! :-) I hope this clears up some confusion. - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 15:39:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Suttee and Footbinding (etc.) On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Lassman, Linda wrote: > > I was in India this past year and a number of people talked about girls who > were married at a very young age (the youngest was 3), who were to live at > home until puberty, at which time they were to join their husband's > households, but who became widows before that happened. In all those cases, > they were not able to marry again, and in a few cases, converted to > Christianity, thereby giving up their caste (but still not remarrying!). > This was in Andhra Pradesh, and I don't know the caste(s) of the women in > question, so they may or may not have been high caste, and practices in other > parts of India may well vary. > One of the striking forms of adornment in Andhra Pradesh are many, many glass > bangles ($.15 US for 12 when I was there), and every girl and woman, no > matter how poor, had at least a few. When a woman was widowed, however, all > her glass bangles were broken and she was never again allowed to wear them. > On the topic of dowries, my sister asked the driver who was taking us to > various places, and who was a Christian, if he was expecting to be paid a > dowry when he married. He said that he wouldn't consider marrying without > one, although he also intended to marry for love! Just goes to show how well > all the governmental reforms are working, and how various cultural > expectations mix! > - Linda Lassman > Winnipeg, Manitoba > Very interesting. I was in India last year for my brothers arranged marriage to an Indian woman. Both were Krishna devotees, and my brother, because of his vows and time as a priest is considered brahmin caste in India. My sister-in-law is punjabi, the part of India most known for its bull-headed women. Adra Pradesh is considered very conservative with a communist-leaning government. Krishna devotees are generally married late, and are not allowed to have children unless their gurus give permission, they have to be mentally, spiritually, and physically capable and ready for children. In that part of northern India, young unmarried women wear silver jewelry and favor dark-colored saris deep purples, deep greens, deep blues, and in their kirtas. Married women wear gold only, and tend toward lighter colors, yellows and pinks. They of course wear the munghul sutra, their wedding necklace out of black beads and 22k gold, and their hair is parted. But, for newlyweds, brides must also wear for three months these specially colored painted bangles of wood or plastic, about 6 per wrist. This is the only time these are worn, she will never wear them again. Urmila, my sister-in-law was of very high caste, although, unfortunately a second daughter. She had very little dowry. Her grandmother had a dowry of 1000 kilos gold and had 10 elephants, camels, and assorted horses bring her dowry of gold and jewels. I think everywhere in India the dowries aren't that substantial anymore. In her caste which was a unpronouncable caste name (high administrators) caste, the women definitely aren't marrying young, at least not in the Punjab, but maybe they don't want to. I wonder what other areas have for their women to wear. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 13:31:21 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: "The Buccanneers" | Usually they would ride side-saddle. The key is that usually the | skirts were shortened to calf-length and gators used to protect | the calf and ankles, I certainly hope that you mean "gaiters." :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 16:54:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Questions are a burden to others; answers are a prison to ones self" Subject: Re: Togas >. . .The Republican toga of the last century B.C. was very large (the size >varied considerably during the thousand years it was the customary garb of >the Romans). And a man draped in his toga could *not* have worn a loncloth or >other undergarment! I have read that they wore a tunica underneath their toga which is a basic chemise. Maybe not for the extremely elaborate togas of the later years in the Roman and Greek empires but i have seen them on men. >Toga praetexta: The purple bordered toga of a curule magistrate. {I.e., >certain mgistratres who sat in curule chairs. KCD} Continued to be worn by >these men after their term in office was over. Also worn by children of both >sexes. Again, I have always been taught that this was red and that only the emperor wore purple. Deb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 12:55:48 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: Buccaneers Sorry, that is "gaiters", not "gators"... been reading too many kids books lately....:-) --julie a. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:40:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Deborah Tarsiewicz - 3528981 Subject: Re: Sense and Sensibility? On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Alexandra Rankin Ohlson wrote: > > Having just heard that The Buccanneers is due to come to Masterpiece > Theater soon, perhaps you can also verify - I've heard rumor that > Emma Thompson and Hugh Grant are to be in a remake of Sense > and Sensibility. One of my favorite costuming periods. Anyone know > about this? > alexandra > I recently saw Emma Thompson on Charlie Rose. She said that she was writing a screen-play based on Sense and Sensibility and that she would like to appear in it as well. No mention was made of Hugh Grant though. Hope this helps. Deborah Tarsiewicz Riverside, CA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 13:28:34 -0700 From: ccary@tiara (Christina Cary) Subject: COSTUME: Victoria's waist Just a note on someone suggesting that Queen Victoria's waist was equal to or greater than her height--this is impossible! I was just in London recently (not that that proves anything, just quoting my source) and visited various castles, palaces, and the Prince Albert Memorial, now under renovation, and I saw numerous photos and portraits of QV at various ages. Although she was very plump in her old age, and was also quite short (less than 5 feet, I think), even a height of 4 feet 11 inches would equal a 59-inch waist. That's huge! She was heavy, but not that heavy. Stout, but not shaped like a beachball. I think this idea (width=girth) may be referring to Queen Anne (or whoever it was who succeeded the throne after William & Mary). According to our tour guide at Kensington Palace, she grew to 300 pounds and had to be carried to the opening of Parliament. No idea how tall or wide she was, however.... Thanks. Christina - -- My first name is: Christina My last name is: Cary Editor, Technical Publications E-mail address: ccary@sgi.com _______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 17:23:15 -0500 From: aboleyn@wichita.fn.net (Sarah Anne Russell) Subject: Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset I am a costumer for the 1530's period style of clothing. . .I am redoing a bridal dress of mine that was made with a bodice with straight across front. The boning was put up the two sides running from the undershoulder down to the waist. I want to take out those boning and just seam sew these panels together and make an Elizabethan Corset to wear underneath. What boning would work good for someone who wears this type of bodice like for 8 hours at a time? Any suggestions? Sarah ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 14:24:17 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset I was confused by your message. Are you doing 1530's or Elizabethan? England? Tudor? Was your bridal dress a period 1530's dress? Modern bridal? A Tudor corset pattern is usually cut significantly different than a modern gown, (no curves under the bust or at the back). Why don't you just make a corset from scratch? It will look better. You really want to make a period corset out of natural fiber canvas or coutille, not bridal fabrics which are usually synthetics and not sturdy. Period boning was usually reeds, but I normally use a combination of spring-boning and standard corset stays. You can use poly-boning, but be sure to round and smooth the ends or they will cut through the fabric and poke you. I tried using metal crate-strapping in my youth (when commercial stays were not available), but that needs even more rounding, filing, and covering of each end. I have even heard of heavy-busted women getting them embedded in their bust! Definitely worth it to just buy the stays from a commercial supplier. You should run some spring boning into the tabs of the corset or your waist will feel cut into and your lower back will hurt after a long day of wear. I recommend you keep a scoop for your armpits if you are heavy-set, and run the top of the corset up to the point of your shoulder blades for back support. There are some nice examples of early 17th century "bodys" to show what boning pattern you should use. How you angle your stays effects the shape of your body when wearing. If your bridal gown is nicely styled and not covered with lace (or it is removable), why not try dying it and making a nice Italian? Could you change sleeves, shorten the waist, and maybe add some decorative banding and embroidery? Dying is not as hard as most people think. --julie a. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:29:54 -0400 From: jreymes@curtis.eagle.ca (Jennifer Reymes) Subject: RE: Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset >From: aboleyn@wichita.fn.net (Sarah Anne Russell) >I am a costumer for the 1530's period style of clothing. . .I am redoing a >bridal dress of mine that was made with a bodice with straight across front. >The boning was put up the two sides running from the undershoulder down to >the waist. I want to take out those boning and just seam sew these panels >together and make an Elizabethan Corset to wear underneath. > >What boning would work good for someone who wears this type of bodice like >for 8 hours at a time? > >Any suggestions? > >Sarah For a slightly more flexible, yet still firm corset, one may wish to make their corset out of two layers of cloth (plus opt. covering) and sew casings through these layers. Insert into these 'casings' weed-wacker mono filiment (don't laugh) in groups of about fifteen or twenty, depending on the size of your casings. Though obviously not a period material, this is not unlike the reedy stems of grasses grown on sand dunes and used in the same manner during the late 1500's. An example of this is in Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion, c1560-1620_. I don't know the page reference off hand. Jennifer Reymes jreymes@eagle.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:29:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: boning in Italian Renaissance clothing Greetings! This boning discussion has brought up another question I was asked recently, on whether Italian Renaissance clothing was boned or required a corset. A quick perusal of J. Herald's _Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500_ revealed no obvious references to corsets or items that might serve the same purpose. Furthermore, most of the silhouettes are a bit too rounded and would seem most likely to have been produced by tight lacing rather than stiffened pieces. Has anyone else done any further research on the matter? I've also examined pictures of 16th century Italian dress, where corseting appears to have been used. Can anyone pinpoint when this transition occurred, if it indeed did? Cheers! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@epas.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 18:47:17 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Fair use Diane, I think placing the copyright notice you suggested in the digests is a great idea. But I have two questions about the policy: * Will any statement about the use of h-costume messages be added to the information about the list people receive when they sign on? Or to the archives? Or the h-costume FAQs and bibliographies? * I can understand why the policy can't apply to messages quoted in replies to them. But will it apply to bibliographies or FAQs created from h-costume messages? Presumably people who post information post it to aid other h-costume readers. But (in my opinion) it's common courtesy to ask the original posters for permission to include their material in a permanent file with the file compilers' names on it. It would also be courteous to include original posters' names next to material they contributed, or at least to have a "thanks to the following people" header at the top of the file. I can identify a good many entries in the general bibliography that were taken from my messages, since in many cases my lists of books and/or comments were included intact. If the compilers have forgotten which messages which entries came from, I can supply information about mine and possibly other posters can do the same. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 18:29:42 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Fair use Tracy, The writer of the material sent to a mailing list, who saw it published elsewhere, said so on that list. I wasn't this list, but I thought people should be aware of potential problems. This was some months ago, and since I assumed he was taking care of the problem I didn't write down the details. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 11:10:37 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Fair use Allan Terry wrote: > * Will any statement about the use of h-costume messages be added to the > information about the list people receive when they sign on? Or to the > archives? Or the h-costume FAQs and bibliographies? The info message doesn't have anything about message copyright in it right now. I can add that, I suppose. The archives are simply copies of the digests, so the archives contain the exact same statements as the digests, including any copyright message headers. The FAQ's and bibliographies each have their own copyright statements, prominently placed at the beginning of each file, by the person who created/complied/wrote the FAQ or bibliography IF they wanted to have such a statement in their creation. Some FAQ and biblio creators specifically asked NOT to have their stuff copyrighted -- they wanted it public domain. >* I can understand why the policy can't apply to messages quoted in replies to >them. But will it apply to bibliographies or FAQs created from h-costume >messages? I assume your concern here is that h-costume members may take some references quoted in one of your messages and use it in their FAQ or biblio that they then give back to the h-costume list members to use. My policy on this is that if all they're doing is listing a book in a bibliography (and it happens to be a book that you reviewed or pointed someone in the direction of), then there's no need to either ask permission or stop them from using the reference _to the book, itself_. After all, such information is public domain and is in easy reach of anyone's knowledge -- you can get the same listing from a public library! If a person wants to use statements you made (your opinions or your own, personally created review of a product or book) in an FAQ -- ie. not a simple listing of the book's bibliography but someone else's words about the work -- then it's only common sense (to me) that they ASK PERMISSION before using anyone else's words but their own, when creating an FAQ. To do otherwise is to plagarize (if not credited) or risk insult or other problems (if credited). So far, as far as I know, this has not been a problem with this list. > .... It would also be courteous to > include original posters' names next to material they contributed, or at > least to have a "thanks to the following people" header at the top of the > file. Or, when this list of names would be far too long to bother including a personal thanks to everyone, a simple "thanks to all the members of h-costume, without whose contributions this bibliography couldn't have been completed" *as exists already in these files* is sufficient, imo. > I can identify a good many entries in the general bibliography > that were taken from my messages, since in many cases my lists of books > and/or comments were included intact. When it comes down the absolute bottom line, if you are going to be paranoid about where you see your posts end up, you shouldn't post *anything* *anywhere* on the Internet -- after all, copyright protection has not been officially extended to electronic forms, nor has it been tested in a court of law. We're dealing with a grey area here and most people approach it with common sense and apply non-electronic courtesies to the electronic form. You can and should expect abuses, though, and I know I certainly don't have the time and power to stop them. I do what I can in the way of warnings and policy statements to guide individuals to the most etiquette-friendly way of dealing with these tricky issues. Some folks will flagrantly ignore these guidelines until and unless they are made into an enforceable law. If you really, really don't want your words appearing elsewhere then my only real, absolute advice is do not post *anything*. Personally, I'm very happy someone took the time and effort required to put together the bibliographies (and having done my own for the wearable art clothing mailing list I know it's a LOT of work even with the help of other's posts) and happy, too, that they didn't claim all the credit for themselves but dutifully thanks the many h-costume members who contributed to the list (too many to mention individually). - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 95 22:47 CDT From: vbetts@gower.net (Vicki Betts) Subject: Lady's Gallery Someone had asked about Lady's Gallery--the address is Lady's Gallery, P.O. Box 1761, Independence, MO 64055. The phone is 1-800-622-5676. One year's subscription is $23.95 and two years is $39.95. It is published bi-monthly. There are several items for those interested in 1840-1865. "Fancy That! Victorian Costume Balls" by Mary Guinca includes illustrations of a Greek costume from a Ladies National Magazine, and another group from an 1863 Godey's, along with quite a few others from a later period. "The Fancy Ball" from the pages of Godey's Magazine and Lady's Book, 1845, by E. Hobart, includes a nice black and white illustration. There is a museum exhibit article "Under Wraps, from Crinoline to Crino- line: Undergarments 1850 to 1950" from the Kemerer Museum of Decorative Arts, Bethlehem, PA, which includes a photograph of two wool flannel petticoats, c.1850, medium to light blue with gold embroidery. I called the museum, but unfortunately, there is no accompanying book or guide. Also, "Swords into Ploughshares: Military Dress and the Civilian Wardrobe" at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which opened September 7. One of the illustrations is of a late 1850's, early 1860's cream silk dress with black wilk faille and pearl button trim, cut and trimmed in the military style-- really beautiful. I called about their catalogue, and ordered it sight unseen. Since the price was under $10.00, I am not sure how extensive it will be, or whether it will have color photographs--I have been fooled before. The phone number for the Metropolitan is (212) 879-5500. I will let you know if the catalogue is worth buying as soon as it gets here. Vicki Betts vbetts@gower.net vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #179 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!