From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #180 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, September 12 1995 Volume 3, Number 180 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Sense and Sensibility? - more Re: boning in Italian Renaissance clothing Duct tape bodies... Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #178 Cotton vs. Linen, continued RE: Cotton vs. Linen, continued Buccaneers thread/ riding,etc. Seam allowances Re: boning in Italian Renaissance clothing RE: boning in Italian Renaissance clothing Sense and Sensibility? - more (fwd) Re: Duct tape bodies... Re: Seam allowances Re: Duct tape bodies... misc posts Linen (and a side note) Re: Using cotton instead of linen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Sep 1995 08:14:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Sense and Sensibility? - more Yes, I believe there is going to be a movie re-make of "Sense and Sensibility". I read a newspaper article that the Chinese director of "The Wedding" was chosen because they wanted to get away from the "Masterpiece Theatre" sensiblility. ( Sorry about that!) Alan Rickman is playing Colonel Brandon. A friend of Thompson's has done the screenplay. Personally, I wish they had chosen "Persuasion". Sheridan Alder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:58:53 +1000 (EST) From: Carolyn Fraser Subject: Re: boning in Italian Renaissance clothing On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Susan Carroll-Clark wrote: (snip) > Furthermore, most of the silhouettes are a bit > too rounded and would seem most likely to have been produced > by tight lacing rather than stiffened pieces. > I too have been looking into this same question, as I am in the middle of constructing a series of Italian gowns circa 1480-1520. I also couldn't find any discussion in the literature on this, but have come to the same conclusion - that the silhouette is too natural to have been achieved by corseting. The younger figures often show the shape of the natural bustline, and the "more mature" or "well endowed" figures a rounded shape that one would not expect to find with a stiffened bodice. I am convinced that the shaping was achieved with lacing, in front and side/s or back and sides. Most (not all) of the paintings that I have found that show the side portion of the bodice, show details of side lacing. In at least two of these, the lacing is not tightly closed, but shows gaps of differing degrees from the arm to the waistline. It would have been very useful during pregnancy, to be able to adjust the fit from the sides as well as the back or front. I don't have access to my books here today, so can't give references right now, although many of the painting used by J Herald, and E Birbari, in their books illustrate this. Carolyn Fraser Brisbane Australia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 14:43:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Gwyndlyn J Ferguson Subject: Duct tape bodies... Greetings! I have previously seen discussions here of the duct-tape technique for obtaining a form-fitting pattern. My question is this: Is this an effective method to obtain a "pattern" to use for a late-Tudor/early-Elizabethan corset? I have friends who would love to wrap me in duct tape, but none who sew terribly well to use as a fitting partner. I have everything I need for my dress, but I can't begin until I have a corset to fit over. Thank you. Gwyn *Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University *SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm *Internet: mugjf@bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 95 10:19:49 BST From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #178 > >I have seen messages from people on the net whose works were used > >as-is as articles by journalists who were paid for the articles as > >if _they_ had written them. > > Could you please provide specifics on this? Some of Dan Barrett's "BLAZEMONGER" humour appeared in Amiga User International magazine without credit. I gather that after he contacted them and pointed this out they paid him and printed an apology (I think they had got it from a BBS where the original attribution had already been lost, but the original appeared as though written in house). This was a few years ago, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if it had happened to other people. > In October in the U.S., Masterpiece Theatre will be showing a > dramatization of Edith Wharton's "The Buccanneers." My question is > two-fold(perhaps three-fold): Has this been shown in the U.K. yet, > and if so, are the circa 1875 costumes authentic? Yes, and I think so. I saw an exhibition of some of the clothes at Castle Howard, which mentioned that the designer thought the trend of fashions though the time portrayed reflected the changing character and growing maturity of the characters. (I'm not sure if the dates of the dramatization were chosen for this, or whether they were already fixed by the book and kept to). (I'm judging the authenticity by the fact the display was there and appeared to reflect some research, not by any knowledge of 1875 costumes. I would guess they were machine sewn, but couldn't see that closely - there was more detail than shows up on TV though, so they were making some effort.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:34:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Cotton vs. Linen, continued > I heard that cotton vs. linen was discussed earlier on this file. ... > Has anyone else noticed what fibers do or do not pick up brush, > stain, etc. when used in a long skirt worn outdoors? I just got back from a joint US/British English Civil War reenactment of the Battle of Naseby (1645) held in Staunton, Virginia over the weekend. I made a shift from cotton because I was concerned about the heat but my skirts were linen. The temperature was over 90 and one day there was heavy rain. The humidity was high. The cotton shift didn't seem that much cooler, I couldn't get the cotton to dry out and it felt really wet most the time. The linen in the skirt didn't seem to absorb as much moisture and seemed to dry quicker. The dirt stains came out of the linen easily with regular washing (no soaking, no pre-treatment). No scientific evidence, just anecdotal. - -- Marsha Hamilton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 95 14:34:19 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: Cotton vs. Linen, continued I have experienced much better "wicking" with linen undergarments, which makes them better for hot as well as wet weather. They also seem to get softer and more comfy as they age. White linen can be boiled to get out the really bad stains with good results. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 23:39:41 EDT From: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu Subject: Buccaneers thread/ riding,etc. Just one of my favortite "quotes" except I don't know the source: If the world were logical, men would ride side-saddle..." ?anon. B) - -------------------------------------------------|=|=|-------- Bonnie Glickman =|=|= Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 22:31:08 -0400 From: jreymes@curtis.eagle.ca (Jennifer Reymes) Subject: Seam allowances I am in the process of producing a pattern for someone other than myself. I would like to know what is the _prefered_ seam allowance on patterns for an Historical costume. I know some who prefer _no_ seam allowance on historical patterns. Any that I use, I draft for myself, or grade from blocks in books, and therefore do not have to worry about how alterations will affect a pattern that has seam allowances (especially if it had been on a mult-size pattern where only the cutting line was given, and I can cut them (the seam allowances) 5cm if desired for fitting (or future middle-age alterations), etc. Jennifer Reymes jreymes@eagle.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 18:01:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Rhodry Subject: Re: boning in Italian Renaissance clothing > This boning discussion has brought up another question I was > asked recently, on whether Italian Renaissance clothing > was boned or required a corset. A quick perusal of J. Herald's > _Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500_ revealed no obvious > references to corsets or items that might serve the same > purpose. Furthermore, most of the silhouettes are a bit > too rounded and would seem most likely to have been produced > by tight lacing rather than stiffened pieces. > > Has anyone else done any further research on the matter? > I've also examined pictures of 16th century Italian dress, > where corseting appears to have been used. Can anyone pinpoint > when this transition occurred, if it indeed did? I have Period Patterns Italian Ren Gowns c. 1470-1505 Neither the documentation that came with the pattern nor the pattern directions mentions boning. However, I am aware that the documentation that comes with these types of patterns isn't always complete. It also coined that silhouette as a "mono-bousom" (sp?) Unfortunately, after a quick scan, I do not find their bibliography to keep their sources. Don't know if this helps any. - Rhodry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 95 11:45:29 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: boning in Italian Renaissance clothing My focus is in German Renaissance clothing, but many of the styles are virtually identical to Italian, especially as many Italian city-states went in and out of the Holy Roman Empire during the period. Many times I see the armpit-to-waist side lacings on second or third layer overdresses, while on the first layer dress, the back side seam (on the left side arch) is the one laced. Most German dresses actually have hidden hook-and-eye front closures. Two years ago I spent weeks scouring German, Austrian and Swiss museums for primary source material. Of course bodice construction, fabrics, and decorative techniques were on the top of my list. There are a lot of examples of this period that we never see in America, in anonymous paintings, ceramics, glasswork, tapestries, woodcuts and etchings, and statuary. I haven't seen any primary examples of corseting, but find from construction experience that the bodices which lace across a front placket seem to require at least light boning in the placket to lay correctly, and on heavy women, some boning on the lacing edge of the bodice. Someone in our Landsknecht group tryed on a Victorian corset under her German and it looked perfect! Very heavy or heavy-busted women seem to need a corsellet/waist cincher underneath to keep the dress from shifting and bunching, but do not confine the bust. From about 1510 and onward, I see paintings which depict women who are very likely to be wearing some type of support, and some who clearly are not. Even in the later half of the century, the cone shape did not seem to be really popular in either Germany or Italy, yet is occasionally seen in the mix. A curving bust-line was preferred and the German sillouette in the 16th century is really typical of what we think of as 90's Victorian. Spanish costume is also an interesting mix of structured vs shapely sillouettes in the same period. Certainly all of Europe is very regional, so "Italian" ends up as a rather arbitrary modern delineation. In the period, "Roman" and "Venetian" would have been two separate fashion descriptions. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 18:33:39 -0500 (EST) From: Betsy Perry Subject: Sense and Sensibility? - more (fwd) Forwarded message: The S&S movie is coming out this fall. I've seen a still of her with - -- mm-- Hugh Grant, who, I pray, is playing the cad Willoughby and not the romantic lead Edward Ferrars. > A friend of Thompson's has done the screenplay. Personally, I wish they had > chosen "Persuasion". You're in luck. The movie of PERSUASION, made by a different crew, has just been released. Betsy Perry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:34:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Gwen Carnegi Subject: Re: Duct tape bodies... Greetings; Duct-Taping a torso for fitting a Elizabethian corset would not do at all. The lovely thing about that method is the ability to acturately grade curves and dificult slopes (coathardies, late 11th century normans, and the like). Highly preferable over the flat pattern method for speed and custom fit. The Elizabethian torso shape was a cylinder with no shaping. IHMO, The only way to achieve that look is through flat patterning, lots of mock-ups, and a whole lot of determination. Pay special attention to: * The depth and width of the CF point- if you make it to wide and to long it will restrict your hip/leg movement. *Back waist line- it is higher than most people think (about 1" shorter than the front). having the waist too long in back will force your hips down slightly and produces a terific back ache! * Waist measurement- The ideal is to have your torso resemble a cylinder, and not a wasp waist. The tighter you pull in the waist, the more that CF point will want to pop up (I had a prof who called it the mr.ducky look). *Lower armscye- You want to have room to be able to drop your arms without pinching. Hope this helps some Gwyn Carnegie "Unexpected changes in travel plans are dancing lessons from God". On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Gwyndlyn J Ferguson wrote: > My question is this: Is this an effective method to obtain a "pattern" >to use for a late-Tudor/early-Elizabethan corset? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Sep 1995 16:39:49 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Seam allowances Reply to: RE>Seam allowances From: Jennifer Reymes :I am in the process of producing a pattern for someone other than myself. I :would like to know what is the _prefered_ seam allowance on patterns for an :Historical costume. Jennifer, I am unaware of a _preferred_ size of seam allowance for Historical costumes. Given that, I suspect that it would make the most sense if you made your decision based on the skill level of the person for whom you are making the pattern. A less skilled sewer would probably be far more comfortable with seam allowances added onto the pattern pieces, with suggested sewing lines marked. With a more skilled sewer, you could add or not add, just as long as you conveyed that information to the recipient of the pattern. I guess I qualify as a mid-level seamstress. Carole Newson-Smith (SCA: Cordelia Toser) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 20:33:13 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Duct tape bodies... Actually, you can duct tape a persons torso to the proper shape for a tudor or elizabethan bodice by using sufficient tension and tape to control the bust and waist fullness by applying on the diagonal. Credit to Tanessa (whose last name I forget, but whose class I won't), Mistress Isabella of York in the SCA. The effect is amazing and accurate. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 95 04:05:52 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: misc posts Dorthy asked: >: Does anyone have any actual documentation of rib removal to allow >: tighter lacing of the corset? I find it hard to believe in an era >: where abdominal surgery was almost a death sentence. (We're not >: talking about a nose job or a collagen injection here.) Actually going back to 1890 I have not heard of any proven cases but there were loads of stories suggesting the like. Later though and from what I understand there was cosmetic surgery used to reduce the waist. Most of it was actually removal of the ribs but breaking them and then retraining there positioning. That is not to say that removals did not take place ocassionally, Sandy asked: >: My question is (and I have no definite opinion) can we reasonably >: infer that ads that include copy naming infants and children are >: selling waists designed for children of both sexes? The Double Vee :> Waist that I mentioned in a previous post does mention boys as well :> ,as girl (ages 3 to 10 years). I must somewhat question this as well. From what I hear men and boys wearing garments to reduce there waist sizes were not at all rare. However no male would admit to the fact that they ever wore such a garment probably due to self pride. I wonder if anyone knows of any documentation that can support mens corsetry? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:32:18 +0000 From: "/R=HOASYS/R=A1/U=RICHARDS GILLIAN/TN=(02) 716 3712/FFN=GILLIAN RICHARDS/"@mr.isd1.tafensw.edu.au Subject: Linen (and a side note) LINEN The biggest joy I have found about Linen is that you can wash the dickens out of it! I have the most beautiful white linen dress and I give it a warm machine wash ( warm not hot out of care for the lace) and it dries in no time and irons like a rag. Bless natural fabrics. SIDE_SHADING Sorry -- on my previous post I neglected to say that the spray-on shading at the side needs to have fuzzy edges - not sharp ones - to give the illusion of shadows. Also, it's a stage device and probably wouldn't work too well for close-up outdoors work, but it's brilliant under stage lights. Re: Things I wish I'd known - Bias cut material. Anything cut on the bias needs time to relax - and natural fibres need at least 3 days (and prefer a week). After you have cut the pieces and sewn all but the bottom hem, hang your bliat/skirt/cloak up so that it is hanging loose and fairly close to what it will look like on you (if you have a dressmakers' dummy, use it) and the fabric will gradually hang out along the bias diagonals. Then and only then is it safe to measure hemlines. If you don't, you may find your hemline more akin to a sine wave. (Thanx, Mum). NAMES AND EMAIL ADDRESSES I have noticed that since the new system has come in, it is cutting off a lot of people's headings with their names and e-mail addresses - and not everyone (and i am also guilty) is putting their names and things at the bottom of their notes. My system does not allow for .sig files (damme!) and I will try to remember to put the info on from now on. It is possible to work out the address from the computer stuff at the end, but I would like to acknowledge people by name if possible. So could the gurus please remind people to at least put their names down? (including me)! Sense and Sensibility Sheridan Alder and others wrote about "Sense and Sensibility" with Emma T and Hugh G - Who is playing Sense and Who sensibility? Alan Rickman in it? then who cares about the others! (Oh shut up Gillian and get back to work!) Your humble servant Gillian Richards TAFE MEU - NSW gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 20:12:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Gwen Carnegi Subject: Re: Using cotton instead of linen Does anyone have a good wholesale source for linen? I currently buy my silk wholesale from NY so I'm familiar with the process. Gwyn Carnegie "Unexpected changes in travel plans are dancing lessons from God". > It is often easier to buy wholesale, or even from > mailordering from a supply that sells lots of linen, not the local JoAnn > or Minnesota Fabrics. Ask your friends if they would go in on some linen > with you. If you each bought four or eight yards you could order 20-50 > yards at a great price, perhaps 5-10$ a yard. > > This is how I generally order my silk now with one or two other people to > get the wholesale price for all of us. Several people have mentioned > good places to get linen on the newsgroup, call the stores for wholesale > prices and request the minimum yardage or money order for wholesale orders. > > Teresa > ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #180 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!