From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #181 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, September 13 1995 Volume 3, Number 181 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: "The Buccanneers" Men's Corsetry Re: Boning in Italian Renaissance Parsons Design School (fwd) Duct Taping Bodies Technieque Re: Duct tape bodies... RE: Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset Re: Duct Taping Bodies Technieque Battleflags Re: Boning in Italian Rena RE: Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset RE: Parsons Design School Location ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 23:56:08 -0400 From: mercury@curtis.eagle.ca (Elizabeth & Will) Subject: Re: "The Buccanneers" Cindy Abel wrote: >In October in the U.S., Masterpiece Theatre will be showing a >dramatization of Edith Wharton's "The Buccanneers." My question is >two-fold(perhaps three-fold): Has this been shown in the U.K. yet, I believe the series was shown in the UK sometime last year, but it was ALSO shown here in Canada this spring. If you like this period DO NOT MISS IT! >and if so, are the circa 1875 costumes authentic? Who did the >costumes, as in the "trailer" I've seen, most look straight out of >the pages of the high-fashion magazines of the day? I'm not a Victorian costume expert but I'd say that they were done beautifully, the girls in the story are extremely wealthy so their elaborate outfits seem plausible. What may not be very authentic is the quality of everyone's clothing despite their social status, but it's a movie... >The "Buccanneers" of the title appear to be able to even run in some of their >gowns and are properly corseted and bustled even. The "Buccanneers" do all manner of things in this movie without the least hindrance, I'm sure the actresses had either cleverly made comfortable corsets or they concentrated on moving and acting as naturally as possible in their costumes. This was a treat to watch (although reading the book afterward shed an entirely different light on the story - Edith Wharton never finished the novel and so the endings are somewhat different) >Cindy Abel >Health Sciences Library >Creighton University >2500 California Plaza >Omaha NE 68178-0400 >Phone: 402-280-5144 > Isn't there another Edith Wharton novel being filmed somewhere at the moment? Elizabeth des Roches ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:05:23 +0000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Men's Corsetry A lovely but unidentified correspondent said: > I must somewhat question this as well. From what I hear men and boys > wearing garments to reduce there waist sizes were not at all rare. > However no male would admit to the fact that they ever wore such a > garment probably due to self pride. I wonder if anyone knows of any > documentation that can support mens corsetry? I can remember a cartoon from "Fashion and Fetishism: a social history of the corset, tight-lacing, and other forms of body-scuplture in the West" by David Kunzle (Roman and Littlefield 1982, LCNo: 80-014872). the cartoon came from Punch and was Edwardian in timeframe. There were a brother and a sister walking side by side down a London Street. The woman is wearing one of those coats which drape straight off the shoulders down to the ground with no apparent shaping. The man is wearing a tighly-nipped-in coat or jacket. His word were to effect of "Well, my dear, someone must show off the family 18-inch waist. If you won't I shall". Text in the book around this part gave lots of references of male tight-lacing (as well as those painful-looking collars and cuffs). I can't lay my mits on the book at the moment, but these should help. Gillian Richards gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Sep 95 17:51:00 PDT From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: Boning in Italian Renaissance Like many others, I've also been wondering about this, particularly when working with somewhat delicate fabric. My solution was based on the Zeferelli Romeo and Juliet balcony scene, in which Juliet is wearing a slip-like undergarment which binds her breasts--and for which I have been unable to find any confirming documentation, alas! I found that this type of undergarment recreates the more natural curves shown in the paintings, but puts almost no strain on the outer garments. I used several layers of heavy cotton and heavy-duty hooks and eyes, and as with the "movie original," added shoulder straps to keep it from shifting down (a blessing when I wore the out, which was quite low-cut, and had a 9-month-old child using my lap to practice standing in--which pulled everything even lower!). What sort of solution have others come up with for this problem? - - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 07:57:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Carol Cannon Subject: Parsons Design School (fwd) This question came from an SCA list, but I want to check before I answer--it is New York, is it not? Thanks.--Carol Here is a question that doesn't really pertain to anything SCAish, but I am sure that with all the education rolling around out there someone will know the answer. What city and state is Parsons School of Design, or Parsons Design School, in? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:09:43 -0500 From: aboleyn@wichita.fn.net (Sarah Anne Russell) Subject: Duct Taping Bodies Technieque Greetings! I have been following the duct taping technique for corsetry. . . I am making a new Tudor corset (circa 1530) for my new period dress I am making from my bridal outfit. . . Can someone please email me with these duct tape technique notes? I need the whole procedure so that I could properly measure. . Thanks! Sarah SCA: Anne of Foxmoor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 08:09:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Duct tape bodies... On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Gwen Carnegi wrote: > Duct-Taping a torso for fitting a Elizabethian corset would not do at all. > The lovely thing about that method is the ability to acturately grade > curves and dificult slopes (coathardies, late 11th century normans, and > the like). Highly preferable over the flat pattern method for speed and > custom fit. On the other hand, extant garments from the cotehardie era suggest that accurately graded curves were not a part of their design. The garments, while flaring greatly from the waist to the hem, are not particularly fitted in the torso. So perhaps we should say that the duct-tape method is ideal for drafting a modern princess-line pattern. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:26:31 -0500 From: aboleyn@wichita.fn.net (Sarah Anne Russell) Subject: RE: Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset >I was confused by your message. Are you doing 1530's or >Elizabethan? England? Tudor? Was your bridal dress a period >1530's dress? Modern bridal? A Tudor corset pattern is usually >cut significantly different than a modern gown, (no curves under >the bust or at the back). Why don't you just make a corset from >scratch? It will look better. You really want to make a period >corset out of natural fiber canvas or coutille, not bridal fabrics >which are usually synthetics and not sturdy. > Actually, my bridal dress was made as authentic 1530's pattern and the corset I wore under it was made by myself as an Elizabethan style. The dressmaker who made my bridal dress made the mistake of using a princess cut bodice but altered the usual princess cut neck front to the straight across neck front as to suit the 1530's cut. But the dressmaker inserted boning into the front 2 vertical seams in the bodice. I wanted to take out that boning and just simply sew those seams back together to get a smooth flat front look. I will have to make another new corset (I have gained 20 lbs since my marriage!) and want to wear this corset under the newly altered front of the bridal bodice. My question is this: Will simply taking out the boning in the front and sewing up those seams make the bodice more period? And I have to sew new Queen sleeves onto the bodice (the sleeves that were popularly used by Queen Anne Boleyn the kind that folds back exposing an undersleeve). . .to do this, I will have to use another kind of fabric for the fact my dress is made of oyster shell upholstery fabric. . .Will the sleeves, being of a different color or fabric, be period? Help!! SCA: Anne of Foxmoor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:50:30 -0400 From: jreymes@curtis.eagle.ca (Jennifer Reymes) Subject: Re: Duct Taping Bodies Technieque >Greetings! > >I have been following the duct taping technique for corsetry. . . > >I am making a new Tudor corset (circa 1530) for my new period dress I am >making from my bridal outfit. . . > >Can someone please email me with these duct tape technique notes? I need the >whole procedure so that I could properly measure. . > >Thanks! > >Sarah >SCA: Anne of Foxmoor > > Every one always had their own technique. This is how I do it. Materials: Some one to help Sketch of basic design. Protective covering. Duck tape. Masking tape. Pencil. Scissors. Paper for basic pattern Medium-Heavy Weight Duck/Muslim for mock Thread Have a basic design, or line drawing, of what you want, where you want the seamlines and opening to go. Always put on some kind of a protective base (ever wax your legs?) such as an old snug tee-shirt, body stocking, or what ever you feel will suit the purpose. (I have heard of some evening using a plastic grocery bag slit open on the bottom pulled on over a body suit, and folded and tacked to fit to begin. I haven't tried with a bag myself and do not vouch for it.) Wrap the duct tape. I like to do this starting on the waist. Do not wrap too snugly; for this period shaping is more of the concern than constricting. Wrap around the waist to under the bust. Then from the side - - mid point between bust and waist - diagonally, over the bust, over the opposite shoulder, to the back, gently compressing the bust, do quite a few rows side by side and overlaping. Some people prefer to criss-cross instead of one side than the other feeling it keeps it more even. (Wrap over the shoulders even if making a strapless corset.) From the lower edges of the new tapes wrap again _around_, up over the bust. Wrap hips for the point and/or for tabs. You can add tabs on as seperate pieces. Your base should be completely covered, and should represent a cylinder shape from waist to bust. I wrap over the duck with masking tape onto which I can draw lines with a pencil. From my research, I have found that if you are going to use side seams, during this period they were sloped slightly to the front. Mark your lines: neck line, armscye, side seams, waist (opt. front point and with or without tabs), opening (I prefer a back opening, it gives a smoother front). Cut armscye, neck and bottom along lines. Ask yourself if your movements are too constricted. Cut along seams and opening. Flatten out your pieces and you now have your basic blocks for your pattern. Transfer it to paper and add seam allowances. Try a basic mock and see how it fits, adjust accordingly. From here, there are many tecniques for construction. Again, each costumer has their own. Jennifer Reymes (Gwenhwyfar in the SCA) jreymes@eagle.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 13:33:25 -0400 From: GDresback@aol.com Subject: Battleflags Hey all, Does anyone out there know how German WWI era battle flags were generally constructed? I know that they were silk, I think, but they had a large number of decorations on them, such as eagles, crowns, cyphers, and whatnot, that could only be from painting or some form of embroidery. ( I think that's the right type of decorative stich) It seems to have been the sewing route in many pictures, but has anyone seen a period flag that can attest to sewn/painted? Iv'e seen painted ACW flags, just not German ones. And does anyone know who could do this kind of embroidery work? We'd like one made, and are looking for a maker...:^) Glen GDresback@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: 13 Sep 1995 10:44:27 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Boning in Italian Rena Reply to: RE>> Boning in Italian Renaissanc From: Lassman, Linda Like many others, I've also been wondering about this, particularly when working with somewhat delicate fabric. My solution was based on the Zeferelli Romeo and Juliet balcony scene, in which Juliet is wearing a slip-like undergarment which binds her breasts--and for which I have been unable to find any confirming documentation, alas! - ------ Linda, Will a painting do? Botticelli did a couple of paintings that are not portraiture, but mythic females standing around in their see-through chemises. The chemises do have some sort of binding strips that define the bust shape. Look up The Birth of Venus (frequently called Venus on the half shell) and another painting which I believe is called Spring. The second painting has the three muses holding hands on the left side of the canvas and several other female figures are shown, some viewed from the back. The painter must have been working from his own knowledge about how real women's under clothing was made and worn. Carole Newson-Smith (SCA Cordelia Toser) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 95 09:35:20 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: Boning for 1530's Bodices & Corset Sarah, This is a long one: Please accept my answers from a clinical perspective, many costumes are fine "for SCA", which I don't consider authentic in the least. My answer is geared to the "purest", but I realize there are different levels of commitment to authenticity. From this perspective, I have only seen ONE early Tudor here on the west coast that was cut with the correct bodice pattern, and that was done by Mistress Louise of Woodsholm, aka Louise Pass. >The dressmaker who made my bridal dress made the mistake of >using a princess cut bodice....My question is this: Will simply >taking out the boning in the front and sewing up those seams >make the bodice more period? I taught a class in '94 about cuts of bodices in the 16th century at the Costumers Guild West-Costume College. Actually, the Tudor bodices I have analyzed for seamlines, haven't had seams in the front of the bodice at all unless its right up the center front or way off to the side (not where a princess seam would be at all). Removing boning probably won't make that much of a difference. >I will have to make another new corset (I have gained 20 lbs >since my marriage!). I am always changing in size, either gaining or losing, so I can really relate. >And I have to sew new sleeves onto the bodice.. the kind that >folds back exposing an undersleeve). to do this, I will have to >use another kind of fabric for the fact my dress is made of >oyster shell upholstery fabric. . .Will the sleeves, being of a >different color or fabric, be period? - - I believe I that most Tudor gowns have bodice, skirt, and undersleeves of the same color and fabric. - -Have you even seen oyster-shell patterns used on any picture of a Tudor gown? I haven't. That sort of knocks the "period" aspect right out the door right up front. Fabric choices, and finding a fabric just like the fabrics in the pictures (i.e. no polyester or mylar gold lamee' substitutes) are critical into making a costume look period. If you want to make a "Killer, to die for" Tudor gown which will impress the natives, go with a solid dark color, and either %100 cotton velvet, %50 cotton "matinee" velvet, or wool. (No corduroy either!) - - I recommend you make a new Tudor and remake your wedding gown into an Italian from the same period. This is going to be really hard for me to describe without drawings, but I'll try. Most Tudor bodices have a 4 part back which is at least 1" higher than the natural waistline in the back. Tudor gowns usually have a single piece for the entire front of the bodice, with seams at the armpits, and shoulder straps which are separate pieces. This bodice hook and eyes up the back (no laces). The other common bodice front has a solid front look, but is actually overlapping on the left side (like a double-breasted coat), and again, hooks and eyes are used. The critical issue for an early Tudor is actually the back. The back has a center seam, but also has very narrow V seams, which are about 4" wide at the top and about 1" wide at the bottom. Sometimes the sleeves themselves make the shoulder strap. Oooh, hard to describe. The skirts are gathered into a cartridge-pleated bustle in the back, but smoothly gored in the front. During this period, skirts were often attached to the bodice (which really helps gapitis in the back!). But make the skirt separate and baste the waistband onto the inside of the bodice. Even the skirts were lined at that time, some even with fur! Can you imagine how heavy they must have been? No wonder the women had such muscular physiques. The most clear and convenient examples of these bodice patterns are in the Bruegel peasants dancing pictures, as well as some Holbein drawings and paintings, which show the backs of the dresses. The early Tudors are actually cut quite differently than later Elizabethan gowns. I strongly suggest making a muslin, and then trying out your gown with expensive fabrics. I drape myself all the time using a mirror. If you can possibly afford one, get or borrow a foam dressmakers model! Remember to line everything appropriately. It was very cold in England, the beginning of a mini-ice age and the clothing showed it. Its also really cool to make the square-necked chemise and do some blackwork across the neckline. Keep us posted on your progress. I know its hard to make the jump in how to think about costuming, but the best way to think about it is that you are making "clothes" just like they wore, rather than getting a "look". The key is the attention to detail, not the overall silouette. Over the years, a lot of us have transitioned from flashy eye-catching glitz to the subtlety of looking "just like the painting". It requires a bit more digging to reevaluate each idea you want to incorporate into your costume. It really helps to verify any decorative techniques using multiple examples. One painting is never enough. Have fun and feel free to call if you get stuck! *Julie Adams -- julie_adams@corp.cubic.com *Costume Director, Southern Renaissance Military Society *SCA: Herrin Julianna Neuneker Hirsch von Schutzhundheim, OL *Itinerant Western Girl/Victorian Dime Novel Heroine *2438 Stockton Lane, Vista, CA, 92084 -- Calafia, CAID *(619) 630-6318 eves. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:15:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Carol Cannon Subject: RE: Parsons Design School Location Thank you. I now have the answer! With especial thanks to Johanna R. Forte, who was the first to respond. I have informed the person who asked on the SCA list already. Cyberspace is wonderful!--Carol ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cannon, Carol J. Bell cjcannon@ucdavis.edu Grannia [in the SCA] 'Life is so short, the craft so long to learn.'--Hippocrates' Aphorisms. I.i., 5th cent. BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #181 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!