From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #184 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, September 15 1995 Volume 3, Number 184 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: more on Sense and Sensibility Buffalo Buttons/Western Sources Swords into Ploughshares Periodicity RE: 1530's Gown RE: Periodicity Re: Duct tape bodies... Re: Togas Re: Machine Vs Hand Sewing 1530's Gown ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 14 Sep 1995 15:31:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Re: more on Sense and Sensibility More on "Sense and Sensibility". Taiwan's Ang Lee, director of The Weeding Banquest and Eat Drink Man Woman, is the director. The screenplay is by Emma Thompson. Lindsay Doran produces. Doran says of the director "This kind of strict social code that sort of dictates what people can and can't say or do is so much more familiar to him growing up in 20th century Taiwan than it would be to people in America or Britain". (Obviously SHE/HE wasn't brought up by MY mother!) It's a $16 million movie, and the newspaper article says that's enough for elaborate ballroom sciences in gorgeous mansion and hundreds of extras. (Hundreds of extras? - Hey it's "Sense and Sensibility" not "War and Peace". I suppose there's the London sequence, though.) Hugh Grant is going to be Thompson's love interest. (Come on folks, he's just about cornered the market in shy, diffident, bumbling, but attractive heroes - he's almost typecast as Edward.) Kate Winslet is Marianne (she was in Heavenly Creatures - haven't seen it but sounds fascinating). Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 12:11:10 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Buffalo Buttons/Western Sources Here are a few Old West Suttlers, I am not sure any of these will have the buttons, but may be able to refer you to someone who does. The other people to check is concho-makers (look in Southwest type magazines) Boomtown Mercantile (707) 557-2552 (killer custom men and women's duds and leathers, from CW and West, Elizabeth Pidgeon, Adrian Butterfield, Victoria Ridenour, Carl Ontis proprietors) Old West Outfitters 1 (800) 447-5277 (Mostly men's 19th cent. buckaroo clothes, hats and boots) River Junction Trade Co. (319) 873-2387 (Mostly men's 19th cent. buckaroo clothes, hats and boots) Old Frontier Clothing Co. 1(800) 422-9257 Old West Shop (304) 295-3143 (?) Magazines which may have jeweler/costume ads: Old West Magazine The Westerner Magazine Single Action Shooting Society (Suttlers may be at events) try (714) 858-8995 (but old number) or try mail: David Britton (SASS) 1820 E. Diana Ave. Anaheim, CA, 92805 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 15:22:07 -0500 (CDT) From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Subject: Swords into Ploughshares I promised a review of the exhibit guide of the new Metropolitan Museum of Art exhibit, Sept 7, 1995- Nov. 27, 1995, entitled "Swords into Ploughshares" about the influence of the military on civilian clothing. The booklet is 6" x 9 1/4", only 8 pages, but each of the pages folds out. The color illustrations and photographs are quite beautiful. I will list the items included, and go into greater detail in the two from 1858-1860. 1. Ralph Lauren, Spencer suit, spring/summer, 1990--navy blue silk crepe with gold soutache braid. 2. English riding coat, 1775--brown goat's hair-and-silk blend with pale blue silk satin. 3. Bruno, evening coat, 1947--red-orange wool with gilt-embroidered sabretache pockets. 4. American suit, ca. 1900--navy blue wool. 5. Pauline Trigere pea jacket ensemble, 1960--black wool crepe. 6. Traina-Norell summer dress, 1954--white linen with blue linen trim and red silk-twill scarf. 7. American day dress, 1858--green silk moire with dark green velvet-and- fringe trim. Stunning! Full length shot, slightly off center. The color is a medium forest-to-pine color of green, with green/black velvet trim, and fringe that matches the silk. It has a basque bodice, edged in about three inches of the velvet around the bottom, with the three inch fringe hanging down from that. There appear to be fake (?) pocket flaps from the front waistline, edited in about 1 1/2" wide velvet. The bodice buttons down the front with dark green buttons, apparently functional. Across the bodice are three banks of velvet, about 1 1/2" wide, pointed on the outer ends, with about 1" left untrimmed where the buttonholes go down the front. 1 1/2" fringe hangs down from those bars (oops! note the typo four lines above "three bars of velvet"--I can't back up in this program!) The sleeves are very wide pagodas, with velvet and fringe trimming the (fake or real?) sleeve cap bottom, and also the bot- tom edge of the sleeve, with the velvet and fringe turning to go up a slit on the inside arm. The skirt is very plain, with perhaps a 4" hem, but no hem guard. The dress is not shown with a collar, and no under- sleeves are visible. 8. American day dress, 1860. Dark cream silk with black silk faille and mother-of-pearl spangle trim. Another knock-out. This photo is from the side-front, and only from about knee up, so I can't tell the hem treatment. This one is very military. It also resembles more the 1865-1867 look to me, with a mini-apron and beginning bustle, but I'm no expert. The main trim is black ribbon (?) on which is sewn along the edge two rows of yellow/gold soutache. The simple high neckline has this trim, about 3/4" wide. The bodice buttons up the fron with black buttons with gold 6-8 point stars (?) embroidered on the front of each button. Ten braided tabs, in pairs, simulate the closures on uniforms, down the front, with the widest (horizontally) ones at the neckline and at the bottom of the bodice. Six pair are above the waist, and four are below. The bottom of the bodice is a wider black ribbon with the soutache, and hanging from the bottom are 1/2" diameter circular pieces of mother of pearl, with a single hole at the top through which the thread attaches to the dress. This trim goes all around the bottom of the bodice, front and back. The belt matches the dress--yellow with two lines of very narrow black on either edge, and it closes at the front with a black rosette. The back appears to have a self bow, but that is hard to tell. The sleeves are coat style, with elaborate cut-out black sleeve caps, edged in yellow/ gold soutache, and dangling those mother of pearl spangles. The lower edge of the sleeve is finely pleated self fabric, with more black and soutache braid above that. Up the forearm, in the back, from the wrist to almost the elbot, is another piece of cut out black trim with sou- tache. It is not designed like officer's braid, but serves roughly the same look. This dress is not shown with a collar, but I might be able to see either an undersleeve or stuffing in one of the sleeves. I can- not, as I said, see the hem at all. 9. French coat ensemble, 1902. Burgundy wool broadcloth with dark red velvet and black soutache trim. 10. American coat, 1901-4. Natural colored silk pongee with red wool felt, black silk taffeta, soutache, and brass-button trim. 11. American suit, 1916. Tan wool twill. 12. Yves Saint Laurent "safari" suit, 1970. Khaki cotton twill. 13. Anne Klein raincoat, 1971. Khaki cotton canvas. 14. Comme de Garcons tabard ensemble, fall/winter 1994-1995. Dark khaki milled wool. 15. American suit, 1892. Black wool serge with soutache trim. 16. Stephen Sprouse. Man's suit, 1988. Red, blue, orange and yellow "camouflage" printed cotton...............OK...... I didn't get a shipping slip with this, so I don't have the exact price with me. It was below $10 before shipping and taxes were added. If you would like to order a copy, contact the Metropolitan Museum of Art at (212) 879-5500 and have credit card ready. Vicki Betts vbetts@gower.net vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 11:54:19 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: Periodicity | Ignore for a moment the angst a lot of people have about the | word "period". There are a lot of resources for fabric research | other than a few pictures. We can use many sources available to | determine what was popular and available at the time, such as | manufacturing and purchase records, archeological finds, etc. | We are not talking about 11th century Islam here, either, there | are LOTS of paintings from this period. That's like saying you've read every issue of Time, Newsweek, and People magazine for the last 10 years -- you've seen LOTS of pictures, so you *know* what Americans wear. But, in fact, the number of Americans who have appeared in Time, Newseek, and People represent a tiny (and somewhat unrepresentative) sample of those who have lived during those last 10 years. You've probably seen lots of pictures of T-shirts in those magazines, but maybe, while you've seen T-shirts with the Pepsi and Coca-Cola logos on them, you've never seen a T-shirt with the A&W Root Beer logo. Does that make an A&W root beer T-shirt "non-period" for 1985-1995? | There were a lot of fabrics available in 1530's Venice that were neither available or | practical in England. Unless you have done research and have the | documentation, you are just guessing. IMHO, you may as well | guess that everyone would wear Reboks on their feet and wear | sunglasses, because "they would have worn them if they could." If you put it black-and-white terms like that, I would have to agree. But, in fact, there is an enormous gray area in between. It is quite possible to make educated guesses. If, for example, we see surviving fabrics of white silk embroidered with winged turtles in red, white silk embroidered with winged turtles in blue, and yellow silk embroidered with winged turtles in green, it would be foolish to conclude that these were the only color combinations that existed. If someone found (or embroidered) a white silk with the identical flying turtles, in green rather than blue or red, would that be "non-period?" I wouldn't say so, unless there was some compelling reason to believe that combination would not be used (a sumptuary law or a church prohibition against green turtles on a white background, for example). I applaud your desire to use only real cloth-of-gold :-), but do you apply that same standard to other aspects of your costumes, besides fabric choice? Do you have document to show that each and every one of your gowns is cut according to a pattern that existed in period, in your specific size? I'm sure you don't, nor is it reasonable to expect that you should. Adjusting a pattern to fit your size is a reasonable extrapolation from period garments. But, is it any more reasonable than (an informed) color or pattern substitution? If anything, I'd say it's more problematic. Substituting green thread for blue in an embroidery design is pretty straightforward and the sort of thing any embroiderer could have done in period. But if you enlarge or reduce the size of a pattern, you must use modern methods, because we don't know what the period methods were. The results, then, are unlikely to be identical to what period methods would have produced. (Though, whether the differences would have been large enough to notice, who can say?). If you're talking about museum reproductions, the standard you espouse may, indeed, be reasonable. Even museums, however, do not always approach this level of authenticity. The Mongol exhibit now at the Museum of British Columbia, for example, has a reproduction of a Mongol yurt made out of canvas rather than felt. (This inaccuracy is clearly noted on a plaque nearby, so as not to mislead the public.) | Why not just say I chose this fabric because I liked it? But choosing a fabric because you like it certainly is period. This, to me, is a more reasonable test: If I went to a period tailor and asked him to make me a certain garment, with certain details, using a certain fabric, would he blink an eye? He might not have the fabric in stock, but if he sent an order for it to a local weaver or embroiderer, would he get back something recognizably similar? If it falls within the scope of what a period tailor would be expected to produce then it is, in my judgement, "period" enough for just about anything short of a museum reproduction. | There are a lot of paintings of this period of Townspeople in market squares. The | fabric variety is not usually what stands out in the mix, but usually wierd things | like the space aliens with batons walking through Bruegal's | peasant market that cause my mind to reel I can't say for sure without seeing the picture, but these sound like they are probably doctors wearing "plague suits." | I feel the difference between real metal and synthetic lamee is enormous I presume you mean "real silk." Modern lamee is "real metal" lamme (though rarely gold). No one has yet invented a synthetic metal. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 12:04:04 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: 1530's Gown | I have to strongly disagree with Edward about fabric. I think other people | have shown we have plenty of evidence on the fabrics worn - although there | is often disagreement about how modern fabrics measure up to period ones. | I would like to mention that the Victoria & Albert Museum in London has an | extensive collection of fabrics, including this period, English and | continental, as well as embroidery. There are some covetable fabrics, | including some cut ground silk velvets with small motifs which I loved, but | have never seen a modern equivalent. How many samples of "triple velvet" do the have? We know that triple velvet existed, from literary references, but it is my understanding that not one single indentiable example exists in the present day. To suggest that we have surviving examples of every pattern that existed in period, when there are types of cloth for which we have not one single example, is sheer folly. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 16:08:43 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: Periodicity Ed, I think you are getting way off the original point here. My use of "period" never implied the ferocity of black-and-white statement you seem to be reading into it. The point is knowing the difference. Most people don't bother. The general costuming population copies other costumers. At best this is flattering, at worst it is embarrassing. I know because I have seen my own costumes and research warped into some real off-the-wall bizarities that used my research "word of mouth" for their documentation *cringe*. There is always a point in which you can say, "I made a pretty good guess" vs "This whole thing is a total guess". A lot of variety came with technology, so I don't really accept your T-shirt logo example as particularly relevant for this period, certainly there is some extrapolation you can do for Victorians, but again, you need to do enough research to extrapolate. I am usually interested in understanding how the average person dressed before I feel comfortable interpreting the unusual. I am past the "personal creativity" historical costuming phase, and into the "scholarly research" phase. It is usually those who haven't done their research that are apt to jump to conclusions about things "they never" or "they always" did. At this point in my life, when I am making something special and "authentic", as Sarah is trying to do, I do use only real silk, linen, wool, available modern fabric equivalents, metal-based bullions ( preferably gold and silver), etc., but I don't expect or demand everyone else to (or be able to afford it), and I don't walk around events declaring "period" vs. "non-period", except where it concerns the Re-enactment group that I am Costume Director for. But they know to ask about questionable things in advance. Yes, Ed, I do make sure that everything on my clothes has an example that I can document, and is cut and drafted in the same tailors' pattern shapes as original garments (which often don't have size information) when pattern examples exist. I know we don't have some fabrics available that they had, so I don't use them. The modern silk velvet that I have access to just doesn't look like period silk velvet, but I know the difference. We can only work with what we have available. And I don't consider my clothing reproductions, but merely historical interpretations, even still. That's where I am right now. I do it for myself, and when asked, I try to give honest, but not mean, answers. I really don't understand your point, obviously you have done a lot research, so what is your beef? But I think you are incorrect in the lamee area, most modern lamees and metaliic trims are a mylar-based synthetic, and are still termed "metalics" by most costumers I've met for their metal-like look. Some nice Christmas trims have been out in the last few years which have between 35% and 65% non-precious real metal content, and that is what I recommend for most people. PS: I believe the space-men are maskers (from examples in numerous woodcuts), but they could certainly be doctors as well. Sarah: BTW, I think they had "V" necked backs in my examples..... Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 19:08:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Duct tape bodies... On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Gwen Carnegi wrote: > Take a good look at the greenland dress (don't have references handy). > It has 5 or 6 separate pieces to a side. The shaping is not over the bust > but well over to the side and underarm areas. responding to: > On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Heather Rose Jones wrote: > > > On the other hand, extant garments from the cotehardie era suggest that > > accurately graded curves were not a part of their design. The garments, > > while flaring greatly from the waist to the hem, are not particularly > > fitted in the torso. So perhaps we should say that the duct-tape > > method is ideal for drafting a modern princess-line pattern. But the various Greenland cuts (specifically the Herjolfnes garments) don't taper from the bust to the waist, which is a significant feature of duct-tape patterns made to fit closely. There are two basic styles in the Herjolfnes garments: either flaring from around armpit level or with multiple gores that are straight from arm-level down to the waist and then flare from there. You don't need to make a duct-tape pattern to create a proper "Greenland" cut -- you just need to know the bust measurement and various other items like back waist length. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 02:07:10 -0400 From: KenDawe@aol.com Subject: Re: Togas Quoting you quoting me... :-) In a message dated 95-09-13 01:17:01 EDT, FULLERDR@VAX1.ACS.JMU.EDU (Questions are a burden to others; answers are a prison to ones self) writes: >> And a man draped in his toga could *not* have worn a loncloth or >>other undergarment! > >I have read that they wore a tunica underneath their toga which is a basic >chemise. I know, I thought so, too. Ms. McCullough seems certain sure, though, and says that she will send copies of her bibliography to anyone who asks nice. >>... (P)urple bordered toga of a curule magistrate. . .Continued to be worn by >>these men after their term in office was over. Also worn by children of both >>sexes. >Again, I have always been taught that this was red and that only the emperor >wore purple. Ah, but we're talking here about the Republic, before Roman Political Corectness banished the word "freedom" from the lexicon... Sorry, I'll try to avoid politics... Anyway, "Imperium" at this time simply meant that the guy in charge *for*one*year*only* had *almost* unlimited power. He was NOT called "The Emperor." "Imperium" means "Command" or "Authority." The point, circuitously arrived at, being that there was no "Emperor", and any curule magistrate, or child of either sex, could wear purple. This "Emperor only" stuff was (to a Roman of the Republic) Oriental Nonsense. I highly recommend the McCullogh books to anyone interested in the period. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 02:07:21 -0400 From: KenDawe@aol.com Subject: Re: Machine Vs Hand Sewing In a message dated 95-09-13 20:05:24 EDT, edwright@microsoft.com (Edward Wright) writes: >The good news is that Singer is once again manufacturing its >old-fashioned all-metal sewing machines. . .I've also seen a treadle-powered version, >including the table, available mail order (from the Cumberland General >Store) for around $350. Based on the manual that came with the treadle machine I bought my wife at the Post Exchange, I don't think they ever stopped. There is NO writing anywhere telling you how to assemble or operate the machine. IOW, it's intended for the village tailor, where said village doesn't speak any language Singer feels confident of having a manual-trabnslator, and the power, if any, is none too reliable... ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 95 14:03:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: 1530's Gown I'm afraid I cannot remember whether the V&A has triple cut velvet, it is 6 years since I had a good look (so little time, so much to see). I'm sorry to be pedantic, but 'an extensive collection' does not imply 'surviving examples of every pattern that existed in period'. What I, and others, have been saying, is that we have a lot of evidence about the fabrics used, so it is *unnecessary* to use fabric for which we have no evidence when trying to produce an 'authentic' costume. Anyway, Julie said it better, I just try to do the best I can with the knowledge I have. I know I make plenty of 'accommodations' unavoidably, so I try to avoid those I can help. Caroline BTW There is an interesting counterpart to your embroidery argument. Julie referred to 'blackwork' embroidery, which is almost always, black, as the name implies. However there are two extant examples which are not, (apart from ones which look brown where the black has faded) one shirt in red and one in blue (Nottingham and the V&A (I think)). We also know a wide range of colours were available in embroidery silks used in tapestries. So, which colour would you use for blackwork? BTW Watch out for French silk embroidery silks. I once made a pair of 1580's elizabethan sleeves and matching stomacher, using dark green silk embroidery silk from France, and discovered the first time it rained that the colour was not fast - very authentic! ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #184 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!