From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #185 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, September 15 1995 Volume 3, Number 185 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: RE: Periodicity RE: Periodicity RE: Periodicity RE: Periodicity RE: Periodicity Cripes! Not the #$%@$ authenticity argument again! (was RE: Periodicity) Looking for reference on costume An authenticity question.... RE: Periodicity RE: Looking for reference on costume Re: An authenticity question.... Thank-you for your advice Diane ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:05:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: RE: Periodicity Ed and Julie, First, I must state that I am not involved in any way with the SCA and probably most of my information on the aforementioned group is either scant or incorrect. However, I have always been led to believe that period reenactment group were meant to be fun. This line of conversation seems to have taken all the fun out of the process. I am a costume designer for the theatre, I do not always use fabric that would be "period", I do my best to make my costumes look appropriate but I am not going to lose any sleep if I have to use a rayon fabric in a gothic costume, if it looks right I'll use it. There is a wealth of information on costuming out there and a good deal of it is based on speculation. We extrapolate what we can from the given information and then INTERPRET it in our own way. I can not and will not say that any piece of period clothing that I design or build is completely authentic, the reason being that I live in the modern age, my design sensibilities have been honed in the last thirty years. On a final note, authenticity is something to strive for, just do not let it become the end all and be all reason to design. Have fun, do something whimsical, yell at me for being ill-informed about the SCA and lets move on. Thank you for your time, Kat Katherine L. Rodman Gainesville, FL afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu "Historical accuracy and costume design do not neccessarily go hand in hand" John Conklin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 07:56:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Carol Cannon Subject: RE: Periodicity Katherine-- While some of those involved in this debate may be SCAdians, some are definitely not. I am, but I grind me no authenticity axes. Authenticity is preferable to creation in any reenactment setting, of course, but one must allow for the individual budget, amount of knowledge and experience, and many other factors. I may not be able to afford silk velvet, or even cotton velvet for my first Elizabethan gown, for example--therefore, I may opt for no wale corduroy. As I am able to save for it, and as I gain in sewing experience, I may then opt for more authentic material, and eventually even make a 'real' Elizabethan gown, authentic in every detail, and documentably so. I think this is the point you are attempting to make, and I agree. Carol J. Bell Cannon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cannon, Carol J. Bell cjcannon@ucdavis.edu Grannia [in the SCA] 'Life is so short, the craft so long to learn.'--Hippocrates' Aphorisms. I.i., 5th cent. BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 08:18:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: RE: Periodicity On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Katherine L. Rodman wrote: > First, I must state that I am not involved in any way with the SCA and > probably most of my information on the aforementioned group is either > scant or incorrect. However, I have always been led to believe that > period reenactment group were meant to be fun. This line of conversation > seems to have taken all the fun out of the process. I am a costume > designer for the theatre, I do not always use fabric that would be > "period", I do my best to make my costumes look appropriate but I am not > going to lose any sleep if I have to use a rayon fabric in a gothic > costume, if it looks right I'll use it. There is a wealth of information Yes, period reenactment groups are meant to be fun (among other things). However I think what you're seeing here is that the particular subset of period reenactors who tend to gravitate towards "historic costume" mailing lists are ones who tend to get their "fun" from seeing just how close to authentic they can possibly get. Theater costume has different goals. On a list like this, it seems reasonable to consider the default situation to be an interest in making garments as authentic as possible. If that default doesn't apply in a particular thread, someone can always say so. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:22:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Gwyndlyn J Ferguson Subject: RE: Periodicity The arguments here about the "authenticity" of any said organization are exactly why I frequently leave the SCA name part of my tag OFF of my postings to any group not an SCA list or newsgroup. I have found myself being pre-judged as to my methods, motives and mental capacity once I have admitted to being a member. Yes, there are members who don't care. But _they aren't on this list!_ I resent being judged in a blanket statement. I am a graduate student _in history_, who has a clue about research. I have 20 years of sewing experience, with several in theater as well. I am a member of this list because I sincerely _want_ to improve my "authenticity." What I like most about this group (after all the cool information) is that it is so rarely that we dissolve into petty arguments. If any of you are on other lists, you know what I mean. The desire to share useful information, and the willingness to ask about something you don't know are refreshing. Let's keep it that way. We don't ask for information here because we don't intend to do anything with it. Sorry about the soapbox, Gwyn *Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University *SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm *Internet: mugjf@bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:45:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: RE: Periodicity Ms. Rodman, I respect you view, it is a valid point, but one should consider a definite difference in your trade where appearance is essential, and the trade of anyone private or group who uses the name reenactor. I am not sure a theatre could use authentic costuming as timing is essential and most garments not in this period were meant to be put on with lots of help, be sewn on for form-fitting, or takes too long to get in and out of. If you can make something appear correct I should think that is the highest praise for you and you have my admiration. The purpose of a reenactor group or someone who is an individual scholar trying to reenact something does so for the purpose of recreating or accurately portraying to others a historical time period and its accoutrements. Many people believe this is fun and that is where the fun gets in. I consider it fun to pour through books on architecture, wills and trade and agricultural reports looking for clothing references. Some people would not consider this fun. When you clothe yourself in the name "reenactor" you imply an assumption upon your audience and yourself that you are as accurately portraying history as possible, that is what the audience expects. There are different expectations when seeing a historical play or theatre performance from an audience that expectation involves not being focused on the "authenticity of the "scenery" and accurate historical representations as much, it is instead focused on the production and genius of the actors and story of said piece. People who love historical research with attention to details, and who don't mind teaching or showing others about it should do reenactment, they enjoy it, it allows their love of research an outlet. People looking to party in costumes that aren't from the twentieth century but out of their imaginations, or taken from historical bits of ideas should arrange parties, not reenactor groups. The Civil War and Revolutionary War reenactors that I know have worked hard (as a labor of love-they have fun at this) to use period fabrics, patterns, accoutrements, and to thus teach people by showing what those periods are. I am sure there are others, I have limited exposure to these groups. The SCA as a medieval reenactment group falls far short of the education guideline it set for itself. It has many truly brilliant hard working members who are wonderful scholars, as well as those who desire to be or are budding scholars. But the wide range of periods, non-focused groups, non-organized research sources, lack of in-group teaching and expectations for anything other than personal achievement combined with many more people who are just there to party, hamstring it as anything other than the social organization it truly is. This is my opinion "All generalizations are lies, including this one," as my fiancee is fond to say. The point, is this costume newgroup is fun, research is fun, scholarship is fun, and being accurate as possible is fun, for most of the people on this group, anyway. Historical research is important however, and when we take the leap on something we're not sure of, I for one, feel the garment is a lesser achievement and do worry about showing it to other people. I'm basically insecure, however. A problem I find myself constantly running into and many people I am sure is that many of us specialize in a particular area and what is known about the 17th century, or even 16th century may not be known, or known completely differently in the 13th or 14th. No one in the 13th or 14th century would go to a tailor and order fabric and clothes to be made, you bring your fabric to the tailor, even kings. Etc., those social bits of information revolving around each of our spheres of costume specialty dramatically alter tones of conversation in this group and are the ground for much misunderstanding. Perhaps Edward and Julie are influenced by the historical and social thoughts and attitudes that creep into costuming research the more you study and both have valid arguments for the areas each know the most about. I think while being on the tense side both arguments are very informational and I enjoy them. I AM too long winded, I apologize. Your servant, Teresa (Have fun, do what you want, but not in a reenactment situation.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 08:41:54 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Cripes! Not the #$%@$ authenticity argument again! (was RE: Periodicity) Katherine L. Rodman wrote: > On a final note, authenticity is something to strive for, just do not let > it become the end all and be all reason to design. Have fun, do > something whimsical, yell at me for being ill-informed about the SCA and > lets move on. Oh cripes! Not the "authentic" versus "non-authentic" argument again! PLEASE keep it civil this time, people. ** NO ** "Nazi" references, no "fashion police" references, no name-calling, please, otherwise we'll have to bounce some people. It got really nasty last time and Gretchen and I won't put up with that this time. As it says in the welcome message, this list is for ALL types of historic costumers to discuss stuff: the theatre people as well as the museum folks and the reenactment groups too. If you find a conversation "too authentic" for your tasts, just delete it or add your own, alternative, non-authentic view. There's certainly room for both points of view on the list! Those who strive for authenticity are just as welcome here as those who must (or like to) take shortcuts (or simply want the "look and feel" rather than the exact same thing) for any particular period. Heck, I'm a shortcut-takin' gal myself! My Armistice blouse is definitely a "look and feel" rather than a handstitched duplicate of the times, but I get just as much enjoyment out of it and someday I may be spurred to do the "real thing" too! That's the beauty of this list -- it expands your horizons and spurs you on to try stuff you might not have without everyone else's insights and input. - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:05:40 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Looking for reference on costume I'm not especially interested in veracity, but Himself wants something other than a tuxedo to get married in. Specifically, he has specified garments like those worn by the Thomas More character in "A Man for All Seasons." However, our copy of the tape was stolen, so I personally have no idea what these looked like (I just don't remember). He sketched what he meant for me, but I was unable to find anything like it in the 3-4 books on historical costuming the local bookstores and libraries had. :( I have a while (we're not getting married until next June), but don't want to wait too long. :D Any help? _Deirdre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:08:21 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: An authenticity question.... While I know silks were used, is dupionni silk something that was available during the English Renaissance? I don't care for my outfit, but don't know much about the weaves of silk. Himself might want to wear his outfit as SCA events however so cares more about this sort of stuff. _Deirdre (getting married in a non-period color herself) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 09:14:56 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: Periodicity Perhaps there are just different levels of Periodicity: Historically Inspired (i.e. the Neon, Sequinned Elizabethan Drag Queen Stage Costume) Historical Impression Historical Interpretation Historical Reproduction (the exact copy) Most of us fall somewhere in the in-between. I don't expect everyone to have the same *religion* as I do about authenticity, especially not theater costumers.....Theres plenty of room for everyone in this sandbox! If a topic doesn't interest you--thats what the delete button is for... Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:34:10 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: RE: Looking for reference on costume Sheryl J. Nance suggested: > You might try checking at your local library to see if they > have a copy of the video that you can rent. Our library is open 14 hours a week. I live in a VERY rural area and this isn't an option (they don't rent videos). We've been unable to BUY a copy even. Julie Adams suggested: > IMHO -- You can never go wrong with a fine woolen. It looks and > hangs beautifully, and looks great trimmed with fur, (like from > thriftstores), velvet, or damasque. It can be purchased in lighter > weights for summer garments too. I even saw a sheer wool sari > recently. While I will work with wool for coats and suits, I am VERY allergic to it. The quantity of handwork that must be done on this garment makes wool a practical impossibility for this reason. We have some appropriate fur btw and I love that idea. Besides, *I* am getting married in silk and we thought it would be neat if we had the same fabric. Dupionni has a *wonderful* body to it. _Deirdre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:38:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: An authenticity question.... Hello Deirdre, I'm going to give you an answer inappropriate to your question. Why, you ask?? Because I don't know the English renaissance, but I do know the silks in the period before it. There is no period (mine 14c. England) reference to dupionni. Since the weave of the dupionni silk, is period however, follow these guidelines. In my period, slubby fabric is not quality fabric. They were NOT into texture like we are today. Those "slight imperfections that give character to each garment" would have been unacceptable. They liked smooth fabric like taffetas, sendal (eqiv. China silk for linings), satin finishes. Thai silk and fine dupioni with no slubs and "texture" would be great for silk. Shot silk called all kinds of things was wonderful too, but restricted to only the higher classes. Perhaps in the English renaissance period things had loosened. So get duppioni with no slubs, like chinese duppioni or the finest indian they make saris out of (Thai silks does not carry this quality indian silk) or use a thai silk, which are hand-woven, or taffeta. There is always wool, which Thomas Moore probably had most of his outfits made of. I hope it works well and am sure everything will be beautiful. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: 15 Sep 1995 12:45:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Thank-you for your advice Diane I would like to thank Diane Close for the advice she gave me regarding c. WWI women's clothing. I finished my outfit (barely, I didn't have time to sew the bodice to the skirt, so I cheated and just tucked it in -does this sound familiar, anyone?) and received several compliments. I was fortunate enough to find perfect (new) shoes for this period last spring, and one person told me what great condition they were in! He thought they were the real thing. I have realized I have been terribly remiss - I never asked Diane to describe her outfit (if she ever has time inbetween getting list members under control). I've even enjoyed the "periodicity" debate - nothing like an intelligent argument as long as people's feelings aren't hurt. Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #185 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!