From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #187 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, September 15 1995 Volume 3, Number 187 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Twist on Periodicity Re: Posting binaries Re[2]: Twist on Periodicity On finding a particular fabric store. Re: Posting Binaries Re: Posting binaries A neat late 20's reproduction place... Re: Twist on Periodicity RE: Periodicity RE: Periodicity Re: An authenticity question.... Re: Periodicity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:22:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Re: Twist on Periodicity Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 15-Sep-95 Twist on Periodicity by "Hope A. Greenberg"@moos > So, a question: can anyone tell me of any other periods that consciously > sought to emulate an earlier period in dress? or elements thereof? That > is in "normal" clothing, not necessarily clothing made only for fancy dress. Well, there's the dress of the French revolution and the Empire, which sought to emulate Grecian dress. toodles, gretchen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:20:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Re: Posting binaries Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 15-Sep-95 Posting binaries by Joan Broneske@calweb.com > I just had a question and thought I would pass it by. Would it be = > possible for people to post "binary" pictures of their work. I for one = > would love to see some of these creations. > > I'm sure not everyone has the scanning capabilities to get pictures into = > the computer, but some may. Possible? Oh course. Advisable? Absolutely NOT!!!!! Binaries take mondo amounts of space, and people who have to pay to download messages get charged for the several minutes it takes to download a binary file. Therefore, binaries should NOT be posted on to h-costume. A good alternative, though, would be to form your own web page with rotating exhibits--you could show one piece one week (or day or month), and another the next--there is certainly no problem with advertising your web page to this list, or with advertising changes and updates here. toodles, gretchen (h-costume co-maintainer) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 13:49:46 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) Subject: Re[2]: Twist on Periodicity Well, there's the dress of the French revolution and the Empire, which sought to emulate Grecian dress. Then there's the early 20thC "merveluse" (sp?) dresses that were supposedly copying the Empire's copies of Grecian dress - copies of copies! They do have raised waists and flowing draperies but look pretty Edwardian nonetheless. Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:17:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: On finding a particular fabric store. Several months ago I received a post from a Denise Maheffey or such from this group asking for information, which I gave, and mentioning a fabric store that did "medieval recreations." She spoke of a documentable Lion of St. Marks fabric. All subsequent posts to her have gotten no response, I tried calling the numbers she had posted, one is disconnected, the other is not her. Sigh. She said the name of the store was "Fantastic Finery" and it was in New York. I called NY City information, no store, I called Albany and the New York State Department, hoping for a business listing. I called the 1-900 telcorp number that lists all corporations in New York State, its not there. If its a business it is registered at the county level. I am pleading, nay begging anyone with information of this store, or the New York readers to help me find this. If there is a New York State Association of textile workers/drapers/fabric stores, maybe they have a listing. Or check your counties county seat where businesses have to be licensed from. Please help me find this store, I am at wits end, and if they are a recreation fabric store it would benefit us all. Thank you. In desperation, Teresa tws@csd.uwm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 13:44:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Pat Kight Subject: Re: Posting Binaries On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, unicorn@calweb.com wrote: > > Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:40:04 -0700 > From: Joan Broneske > Subject: Posting binaries > > I just had a question and thought I would pass it by. Would it be = > possible for people to post "binary" pictures of their work. I for one = > would love to see some of these creations. > > I'm sure not everyone has the scanning capabilities to get pictures into = > the computer, but some may. > > Just wondering... > > Joan Broneske Ouch. I understand the sentiment, Joan, but - please, everyone, don't. Not that we wouldn't *love* to see everyone's work, but binaries are typically *huge* files, and some of us already have very, very full mailboxes. I suspect there are even some folks on the list who pay for their email by the message or by length. A better option would be for some kind soul with a good ftp site to volunteer to collect costume binaries and let people know where they can be found ... or better yet, turn them into gifs or jpegs and put them on a Web page somewhere. Regards, Pat Kight mostly just lurking, but finding the information very useful. kightp@peak.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:50:48 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Posting binaries Joan Broneske wrote: > I just had a question and thought I would pass it by. Would it be = > possible for people to post "binary" pictures of their work. I for one = > would love to see some of these creations. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!! NO binaries posted to the list, PLEASE! Those files are huge and will result in TONS of complaints, as well as the fact that the digest can't handle it. We could consider placing some binary pictures in the library, but even then the files tend to be a little big for most folks to grab via e-mail. I really don't want to spend my time uuencoding and splitting files for everyone. So the best thing would be if you have some pictures on-line, put them on a www page or send e-mail to the list letting everyone know the picture is available. Send those who are interested the binary file BY PRIVATE E-MAIL. Thanks! - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:04:23 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: A neat late 20's reproduction place... Just to show everyone I'm not really in a bad mood today :-D, since it seems I've been spending my morning chewing people out :-), here's a neat little shop that SF Bay area people who happen to be 1920's and 30's fans, might be interested in checking out: Kate Bishop "Silk Originals" Petaluma, CA 94952 Phone: 707-769-7705 "One of a kind dresses, hats and accessories. By appointment only." Ms. Bishop had a booth at last weekend's Mountain View Art and Wine Festival. She was offering a very impressive line of classic late 1920's and early 1930's style dresses and cloches that she, herself, had made. The quality was very high and the hats were simply awesome. She does almost everything out of silks and silk velvets. About half of the dresses were bias cut floaty wonders and the other half were typical Twenties straight cut diaphonous, embroidered drop-waisted styles. The hats were very detailed, very "cloche", and consisted of fabric and adornments mounted on a straw base. I thought that was a very clever way of getting the look of the cloche but giving some body and durability to the hat too. Her booth was packed, so I didn't get to try on any of the dresses, but I did get to try out several of the hats. I fell in love with a gorgeous black velvet cloche creation, but she didn't have it in my size. Oh well, c'est la vie! - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:18:22 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Twist on Periodicity Hope A. Greenberg wrote: > So, a question: can anyone tell me of any other periods that consciously > sought to emulate an earlier period in dress? or elements thereof? In the mid-1920's there was a definite return to the pannier-style of dress for party dresses. (Mixed success.) Women's outdoor clothing of the 1900-09 time period emulated men's suits from earlier eras. But then again, I think a fair number of women's styles from any era were drawn from men's styles of earlier eras. - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 13:44:11 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Periodicity | I think you are getting way off the original point here. My use of | "period" never implied the ferocity of black-and-white statement | you seem to be reading into it. The point is knowing the | difference. Most people don't bother. There are two separate questions. "How period should your costumes be?" and "Just what is a period costume anyway?" I'm not really much interested in the first question, since it's just a matter of opinion that we can never really settle anyway. I was addressing the second question, relating specifically to your statement that, unless you use a fabric "just like the fabric" in the original (as documented by paintings or surviving garments) any possibility of periodness goes out the window. If this is what a period reproduction means, then I think we must have few, if any period reproductions. Since even museums don't insist on that level of authenticity for their reproductions, I don't think this is a reasonable definition. | A lot of variety came with technology, so I don't really | accept your T-shirt logo example as particularly relevant for this | period, I would say just the opposite. Many of the most recent advances in technology, such as digital scanners, computers, and electronic sewing machines, make it easier to do customized and one-of-a-kind items, but prior to the last few decades, the greatest technological advances were in the area of mass production, which tends toward standardized items. The variety of clothes available in the old Sears and Roebuck catalog was much smaller than what a tailor or home seamstress could turn out. As an example of the type of variety that was available prior to mass production, let's consider embroidery patterns. We have many examples of 16th/17th Century embroidery (both actual embroidery and patterns in embroidery books) that use plants and animals as motifs. We also know many of these patterns were taken from engravings and woodcuts, and we have surviving examples of books on natural history books that show many types of plants and animals not seen in surviving embroideries. In period, if I wanted a fabric that was embroidered with some particular plant or animal (perhaps an oyster shell), I wouldn't need an existing example of that embroidery, I could a picture in such a book, take it down to my local embroiderer, and ask him to copy it. Anyone who could afford to hire a professional embroiderer could have done this, and most one-of-a-kind designs have not survived to the present day. So, if I use period black-work techniques to embroider a shirt in a oyster-shell pattern, taking the pattern from a depiction of oyster shells in a period natural-history text, is that a period reproduction? Yes and no. It's certainly incorrect to say it's an accurate reproduction of a specific shirt worn by thus-and-so, because so far as we know, it isn't. But is it a reproduction of the style of shirt worn at that time? I believe so. I'm not saying that there is no value in trying to reproduce a specific garment as closely as possible. But I don't believe that creating an original garment that reproduces a specific *style* has no value, either. It all depends on your goal/purpose. If you're a reenactor playing the part of the great historical figure Sir Smedley Smith, then it certainly makes sense to wear clothes that are as close as possible to those worn by Sir Smedley Smith. On the other hand, if you're merely playing the fictional Sir Reginald Jones, then it doesn't make sense to wear clothes exactly like those worn by Sir Smedley Smith, because you wouldn't have been doing that in period. (Military uniforms and such are an obvious exception.) If Jones is wearing a blackwork pattern known only from a portrait of Smedley Smith, that makes his recreation less accurate, from my view, not more so. Likewise, I don't think that it makes sense for a reenactor to wear an exact reproduction of one of Queen Elizabeth's gowns unless she is protraying Queen Elizabeth, because anyone who did that in period would have been in big trouble with Elizabeth. I don't believe that reproducing a period style requires any less research than reproducing a specific garment. If anything, it may require more research, because you need to study not just one garment, but a range of garments, before you can understand what the scope of that style is. | At this point in my life, when I am making something special | and "authentic", as Sarah is trying to do, I do use only real silk, | linen, wool, available modern fabric equivalents, But how many of those fabrics, even ignoring the "available modern equivalents" are, to use your words "just like the fabrics" in the original garments? Probably very few, if any. Take wool, for example. There are many different types of wool, commonly divided into "woolen" and "worsted" based on the staple length. But staple length can vary greatly within those categories. Then there's spinning technique. Weaving comes next -- the type of weave and the thread count, along both warp and weft. Dyeing comes in somewhere along the line. Is it piece-dyed or dyed in the grain? Does it use a natural dye? Does it use the *correct* natural dye? If you tell me you've researched all these things for every fabric you use, I'll believe you. If you tell me you've found sources for linen, wool, and silk that accurately recreate all these aspects, I hope you'll share them with this group. But if you can't, then you haven't found a fabric "just like the original." It makes no sense, to me, to say that a gown made from wool with a modern weave, colored with modern aniline dyes, is a period reproduction, but a blackwork shirt with an oyster-shell pattern isn't. | And I don't consider my clothing | reproductions, but merely historical interpretations, even still. Fair enough -- I've never said that you were don't hold yourself to the same standards, nor have I ever accused you of being "mean." But I still believe your definition is much too strict. Even museums sometimes substitute fabrics and still call the results "museum reproductions", Would you tell a museum curator (politely, not meanly) that this was wrong? | But I think you are incorrect in the lamee area, most modern | lamees and metaliic trims are a mylar-based synthetic, and are | still termed "metalics" by most costumers I've met for their | metal-like look. Mylar, properly spelled with a capital "M" (it's a trademark) is a colorless polyester film. The color comes from metal, or other pigments, that are deposited on one side of the film. If you want to see mylar in a full range of colors, not just metallics, go to a hobby store and look at the parachutes that are sold for model rockets. There's a reason why you can't have a "metallic" plastic. Metallic "colors" such as gold and silver aren't really colors. The color of gold is actually yellow; the color of silver is actually gray. We perceive a color as being gold or silver, rather than yellow or gray, because of the specular highlights. Plastics reflect light diffusely, giving them "dull" appearance, whereas metals have a high specular reflectivity, giving them a shiny appearance. | PS: I believe the space-men are maskers (from examples in | numerous woodcuts), but they could certainly be doctors as well. Could be. What struck me about your description was the "batons", which reminded me of the staffs that I've seen plague doctors carrying in pictures. If it's a woodcut, you probably can't tell the color of their robes. How many were there? Masquers might travel in a fairly large group, but if they were doctors, I wouldn't expect to see more than one or two at a time. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 14:05:18 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Periodicity | Ms. Rodman, I respect you view, it is a valid point, but one should | consider a definite difference in your trade where appearance is | essential, and the trade of anyone private or group who uses the name | reenactor. I am not sure a theatre could use authentic costuming as | timing is essential and most garments not in this period were meant to be | put on with lots of help, be sewn on for form-fitting, or takes too long | to get in and out of. Whenever I hear someone say something like that, I always want to ask how Shakespeare managed to perform in authentic costumes that "take too long to get in and out of." It reminds me of a former theater director who recently said that the new Globe replica in London was too small, too limited, and too technically constrained for a full-scale Shakespearean production. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 14:11:19 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: Re: An authenticity question.... | Thai silk and fine dupioni with no slubs and "texture" would be great for silk. Could you explain what you mean by Thai silk? I've seen stuff called "Thai silk" in a number of stores, but obviously what you mean is something very different because what I saw was slubby in the extreme. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 16:56:37 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: Periodicity >If you tell me you've found sources for linen, wool, and silk that >accurately recreate all these aspects, I hope you'll share them >with this group. I don't find period fabrics in a single source, but have to pick through the glut for the *choice* pieces, which I have found everywhere from bulk mill-end stores to House of Fabrics chain stores. >How many were there? Masquers might travel in a fairly >large group, but if they were doctors, I wouldn't expect to see >more than one or two at a time. The colors of their jumpsuits/coveralls I believe were natural to gray colored, likewise their "masks", but they were carrying nothing but the batons. (no bags, etc.) I've seen other color pictures of maskers wearing the same color, but maybe they were masking at being plague doctors. Of course, the woodcuts are colorless. Or maybe they were just plague clean up crew or trashmen. There were only two, but just coming into the square, so others could have been following. This is from a Breugel painting of a market square. I'd love to hear other comments about this. I'm pretty sure they aren't miners as they wear a back-facing apron. >Mylar, properly spelled with a capital "M" (it's a trademark) is a >colorless polyester film. Yes, much of that "gold" lamee is actually harvest gold-colored shiny plastic strips woven with gold thread which appears metallic when the light hits due to its reflectivity. If any real gold is used it is no more than paint. The weight and drape is very different. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #187 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!