From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #188 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Saturday, September 16 1995 Volume 3, Number 188 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Tudor/Elizabethan corsets RE: Periodicity Book on Victorian bathing suits for sale Re: Periodicity Binary idea Authenticity Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #176 Re: Costuming Standards For Groups Re: Tudor/Elizabethan corsets Silkarama Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #180 Argyle Sox Re: Periodicity Sample issues of Rags available ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 23:32:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Tudor/Elizabethan corsets I was discussing Tudor/Elizabethan corsets with a friend recently. He said that that must be uncomfortable, and I explained that a well fitted one was not - but if you gained or lost weight, then you would have problems. This led me to the following questions. Is there any documentation on how many corsets a woman actually had at once time? I would think she would want at least two to take care of the variantions in size that can take place during the month. And, what did they do when pregnant? I have a vague memory of reading something about this previously - if so, I apologize. I do know about the loose gowns that were sometimes worn - does that mean that pregnant women NEVER corseted? Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:54:40 -0500 (EST) From: "Kimberly R. Gilbert" Subject: RE: Periodicity On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Edward Wright wrote: > Whenever I hear someone say something like that, I always want to ask > how Shakespeare managed to perform in authentic costumes that "take too > long to get in and out of." > I don't think Shakespeare's actors, or actors of the era in general, used costumes as we think of them. The actors had their own personal wardrobes that they wore on stage. Since there was not really any attention to accuracy, it wouldn't have been neccessary to have many (if any) costume changes. (Plus, even today some Shakespearean plays are performed without many changes.) Kimberly Great wonder grew in hall "This is terrible news! Do you At his hue most strange to see, actually intend to kill your For man and gear and all enemies? Can't you just speak Were green as green could be. sternly to them?" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 21:55:54 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Book on Victorian bathing suits for sale I just received an unsolicted review copy of a book I already own. It is: _Victorian Bathing Costumes_, edited by Paula Jean Darnell, published by Fabric Fancies in Reno, 1995. This is a 67-page anthology of period pictures of women's bathing outfits (including a bathing corset) from the 1860s through the 1890s, taken from women's magazines. On the good side, the book gives you access to material not available in other reprints. On the bad, it's a copy-shop comb-bound edition. The editor (and owner of Fabric Fancies) charges $19.95 plus $4.50 shipping. I actually paid this when I bought my copy and thought it excessive when I received it. And now suddenly I have another copy. . .which, out of the goodness of my heart, I'm willing to sell for the more reasonable price of $10 including shipping. If interested, please send e-mail to me via aterry@teknowledge.com Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:22:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Alice Morgan" Subject: Re: Periodicity _Many_ fine words have been spoken on the altar of making a "period correct" garment, and I applaud the effort even as I wear out my delete key. I apologize now for the wear and tear I am adding to your delete key. I have heard this same authentic discussion on this list before and around the campfire and even carried it forward myself at times. Lately I find myself approaching historic clothing in a different way. I was looking for the passion that was driving me to spend long hours hunched over a garment to get things "just right". What I realized is, that for me, the holy grail of "totally authentic" came from a desire to transport myself to a different time and era, to live, if just for a short while, a fantasy, using period garments to create the illusion for me. Well, I'm trying to simplify my life a bit. My fantasies related to period costumes I've boiled down to fragmentary visions that someday I would like to live out. Little things, like: a woodland stroll, Gibson girl outfit, white linen suit, straw picnic basket, intimate indiscretion for dessert, or steamer trunks full of all the proper clothes for traveling on an ocean voyage, and spending a decadent weekend at the HMS Queen Mary hotel, pretending to be one who could and did afford to travel on her while she was still a luxury vessel. or A fond farewell to a favorite suitor, dressed for departure in all his new military finery, perhaps including a bestowal of some token to remember me as he heads off to glory on the battlefield. Pick a war, and time period, there are so many to choose from. or Brandy and cigars, over-stuffed leather chairs, jodhpurs and khaki, and the sporting arms on the veranda, toasting the days hunt, Discussing business plans for how to make money on this fine land. or a day/evening at the concert/opera with costumes appropriate for the era of the composer. Most of these will probably include (or end in) giggles, panting desire, and laying aside of the garments for other forms of pleasure. What I'm curious about (and surprised if you are still reading), is if any others will admit to such viewpoints, discrete replies in private are probably better for all concerned. I'm of the opinion we all have our private scenes we'd like to live out, and this is certainly a different realm than public works, either for the stage, or historical education. Where each scene comes from is buried in our past, fragments of memory, a favorite novel or show, etc. Does it really matter where? Its an escape valve. Hoping I'm not alone, wondering if this will get me banned from the list. Love, Alice ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 95 00:27:48 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Binary idea A better suggestion on those pictures. If you have some and want to share them simply post a list of them to the list with your email address. Then the individuals that want them can simply send you a message please send me...... . My agruement against Web pages is that some of us have to pay for them as well. If it is commercial or you get a free area from a university it is great. But through my home account the service gives me an option of a home page etc for $20.00 extra per month plus an added $.10 per meg that gets downloaded off of it. So while it might look like only $20 per month if I had 30 pictures in there each taking up 100K and 5 people downloaded them a day it would add another $45 to my bill a month plus the 100's each day that would simply look at my home page and not download anything else. So while the web might be great for some of us to run a home page could get costlier than we would like it. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 22:50:57 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Authenticity A veteran of the Authenticity Wars jumps into the fray again... I think pretty much everyone has agreed that there are constraints on making authentic costumes. Including the availability (and clarity) of information in period sources, the availability of authentic supplies such as fabrics, and the amount of time, money, and skill the costumer has. Despite these constraints, pretty much everyone has agreed that authenticity is a Good Thing. The debate seems to be: What level of authenticity should be striven for? And if this is not Total Authenticity, then which aspects of authenticity are vital and which optional? I don't think there is any answer to these questions that is appropriate for every situation, or every costumer. But then there's the other aspect of the debate: What if other people's costumes don't conform to the level expected of your group? Or your personal standards? I think there _is_ an answer to these questions. Costume policing is an etiquette problem: The interjection of criticism into a social situation. Which is what most reenactment events are at least in part, even if the group exhibits for the public. So the solution is: Separate education from social events! If you honestly feel you know more about costuming than others, write articles for reenactment publications. Give lectures, workshops, or classes. Offer costume clinics where people can bring garments or projects for critiques. Set up a service where you advise people on fabrics, techniques, and fitting. You might even make some money at it. If this is a performing group that must display some consistent level of authenticity and quality, have some officially appointed, knowledgeable person(s) provide information and help _before_ the costumes are made. And possibly, approve them afterward (though if performers make their own costumes, the above contraints will have to be taken into account). In sum, if you want to educate people, it is unnecessary to offer unsolicited critiques in social situations to people whose immediate purpose is to enjoy the activities at hand, not worry about their costume. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 07:52:15 -0700 From: Stella Nemeth Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #176 >On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Irene Joshi wrote: > >> The term sequin (French) comes from the word zecchino which was an >> Italian, specifically Venetian, gold coin. A Turkish coin the sultanin was >> also referred to as a sequin/zecchino. Its earliest use in English as >> recorded in the Oxford English dictionary (OED) dates from 1617. >> >> Obviously it must have been a pesky little thing as a monetary >> unit and I read somewhere that its use was banned at one time for that >> reason and hence it was used to ornament clothing. It remained as a >> monetary unit at least until the early part of the 19th century. >> Robert Lewis Stevenson in Treasure Island referred to sequins >> as money. References to its use in clothing date from the 1882. "Sequins >> are the newest" form of artistic decoration for dresses. > >Unless there are clear references to using the actual coins for >decoration, we probably shouldn't rule out the possibility that sequins >were named for their _resemblance_ to the coin rather than for their >derivation from it. After all, we can find spangles used in English >embroidery significantly before that OED date for the English use of >"sequin". I can't give you a clear reference, just personal experience. My mother was born in Turkey and had some real sequins. They were thin, tiny gold coins. Hers had a hole punched on one edge of each coin so they could be sewn onto a scarf or garment. I just realized that I actually have one of them. But mine is one of the larger ones, not the 1/4 inch variety. Mine is 3 mm in diameter and quite thin. Thinner than any normal coin, gold obviously, with an odd braided edge. It also has a ring soldered to it that was put on some time in the teens or twienties of this Century. I obviously can't read the words on it, but there is no reason not to believe that it isn't a Turkish coin since it doesn't look Greek (the only other possibility). She refered to the whole collection, the one big one and the two or three small ones, as sequins. Also, almost anyone who has looked through a decade or more of circa WW II National Geographics can come up with a mind picture of Arab and Palistinian girls wearing their doweries, including scarves with gold coins sewn on the edges. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 13:23:59 -0700 From: denikai@ix.netcom.com (Marie Denikas ) Subject: Re: Costuming Standards For Groups I am a member of the Court (Guild of St. George) at the Bristol Renaissance Faire. People who are cast in the Court are expected to provide their own costume, appropriate to their rank. However, they are not turned loose to see what they can bring on opening weekend. They are given costume guidelines, and are required to provide sketches and swatches of their costumes beofre actually buying anything. Everyone is warned at casting that they will have to provide their own costume. If they can't get together dress which is appropriate, they are given the option of choosing another character. Some allowances are made for new arrivals, but nothing that is so obviously wrong that it is 'remarkable'. There are a number of people in the Court which make these types of costumes (obviously!) and everyone is willing to help with advice and hints. Otherwise, they have to commission a costume for themselves. Hope this helps clarify it a little. Marie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 13:32:29 -0700 From: denikai@ix.netcom.com (Marie Denikas ) Subject: Re: Tudor/Elizabethan corsets As someone who wears an Elizabethan corset for a sizable chunk of the summer, I will try to answer some questions. I hav eone corset - that's it. I have had this corset (in the smae size) for several years. These corsets lace up the back, which make the necessary allowances for weight irregularities. The bodices also tend to lace up the back, making fitting pretty easy, even if the corset is slightly different. I haven't seen anything in the references about the number of corsets a lady might own. but there may have been several styles, depending on the dress she was wearing. There are many radically different bodice styles, and a lady of fashion would most likely need different corsets for the different styles. Think of the different bra styles today. About pregnancy. There is a reference to Ann Bolyn (pardon the spelling - they didn't care) on her way to her coronation, very pregnant. The people wrote she wore a white satin kirtle, unlaced in front to show her broad belly. Once the pregnancy advaced to a certain point, the lasy in question wouldn't really want to be wearing all those court clothes, so would change to less formal wear. This garb did not require corsets. The loose gowns you may be thinking of are Spanish surcotes. They also had nursing slits in them, making them perfect maternal wear. Marie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 16:32:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Silkarama I have found Rupert, Gibbon, and Spider to be a great source of silk. Most of their silk is "undyed" (is that a word?) and ready for dyeing. For anyone who is interested in silk differences, they have a swatch set of silks and a swatch set of natural fibers that you can purchase of $12 (I think). Their address is: Rupert, Gibbon and Spider P.O. Box 425 Healdsburg, CA 95448 The best news for those in academia is that they will take purchase orders. On my other message, my point was that (oh please, let me say this right) we all are artists in our own right. Even if we follow a pattern down to its very last point, we will still put our own talents into it. I have seen some wonderful things come out of the SCA and one of my best drapers is in the SCA, and this is not coming out right at all. I apologize to all of you whom I might have offended. Such was not my intent, MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA. I have learned a great deal from all of you and hope to learn more in the future. Thank you for your time, Kat Katherine L. Rodman Gainesville, FL afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu "Historical accuracy and costume design do not neccessarily go hand in hand" John Conklin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 14:34:46 -0700 From: Stella Nemeth Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #180 >> In October in the U.S., Masterpiece Theatre will be showing a >> dramatization of Edith Wharton's "The Buccanneers." My question is >> two-fold(perhaps three-fold): Has this been shown in the U.K. yet, >> and if so, are the circa 1875 costumes authentic? > Alan Braggins wrote >Yes, and I think so. I saw an exhibition of some of the clothes at >Castle Howard, which mentioned that the designer thought the trend of >fashions though the time portrayed reflected the changing character >and growing maturity of the characters. (I'm not sure if the dates >of the dramatization were chosen for this, or whether they were >already fixed by the book and kept to). >(I'm judging the authenticity by the fact the display was there and >appeared to reflect some research, not by any knowledge of 1875 >costumes. I would guess they were machine sewn, but couldn't see >that closely - there was more detail than shows up on TV though, so >they were making some effort.) By 1875 clothes would have been sewn by machine. Yes, possibly even the lace attachments and some of the embroidery. There is a Singer sewing manual (early 20th Century) recently reprinted by two different publishers. (It has more than one name because of the different publishers, I don't own it and can't get you an exact title. I've seen both of them. The main difference is that one has the color plates and the other does not.) It gives instructions for doing traditional whitework embroidery and lace making, among other styles of embroidery, on a straight stitch treadle machine. The operator provides the zig-zag action manually. You would need a magnifying glass to tell that it was done on a machine. The people who are doing and investigating heirloom sewing by machine have discovered that a lot of the white muslin, lace encrusted, pintucked to death dresses from the 1880s to the 1920s were actually made in part, or totally, by machine. Trying to figure out what those Edwardian sewing machine feet were for is almost as hard as figuring out what the Victorians used some of their silver tableware for. There is a whole industry involved in reconstructing these techniques. Right after looking at that book I saw some highly decorated baby clothes, probably a christening outfit, in a local museum (Serrano Adobe, Lake Forest, California) dating roughly to the last decade of the 19th Century. Looking closely it became obvious that the outfit had been at least partially machine sewn. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 17:38:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Shirley Matheis Subject: Argyle Sox Can anyone give me a source for argyle knee sox in large sizes to be worn with 1920's plus fours? I haven't been able to find any in the many catalogues I have on hand. Thanks for any help you can give me. Shirley Matheis - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 20:19:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Periodicity On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Alice Morgan wrote: > Well, I'm trying to simplify my life a bit. My fantasies related to > period costumes I've boiled down to fragmentary visions > that someday I would like to live out. ... > I'm of the opinion we all have our private scenes we'd like to live out, and > this is certainly a different realm than public works, either > for the stage, or historical education. Where each scene comes from is > buried in our past, fragments of memory, a favorite novel or > show, etc. Does it really matter where? Its an escape valve. I've actually had an experience of that sort but flipped 180 degrees. When I made my first authentic-down-to-the-underwear early 15th century Burgundian (male outfit -- in some periods I find boy-clothes more interesting), the experience of _undressing_ authentically in that outfit was the major inspiration for a novel I'm now writing. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Sep 95 21:10:05 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Sample issues of Rags available Robb Shep told me today that the sample issue of _Rags: Quarterly Reviews of Costume, Clothing, and Ethnic Textile Books_, will be ready to send out Friday September 22. This will be thinner than the issues to be published later, but will show people what the magazine is like. Complimentary copies will be sent to everyone on R. L. Shep's mailing list. (He publishes reprints of 19th- and early 20th-century drafting, dressmaking, and needlework manuals.) Some copies are also available on request, on a first-come-first-served basis, to people interested in subscribing. If you would like to subscribe and think you're not already on the mailing list, contact: R. L. Shep _Rags_ Box 668 Mendocino, CA 95460 I'm one of the reviewers, but have not seen the whole magazine. However, I do know the reviews are required to be substantive--several hundred words long. And analytical--reviewers are asked to evaluate the contribution a book makes to the "field," and to give an honest opinion about whether it is worth buying. Museum catalogs and magazines are reviewed as well as books. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #188 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!