From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #189 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, September 18 1995 Volume 3, Number 189 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Posting binaries corsets in pregnancy Togas Why are we here? Re: corsets in pregnancy Re: Lame Re: handsewing vs. Machine sewing Re: handsewing Re: corsets in pregnancy Re: An authenticity question.... 1950 Long Line Bra cartridge pleating Sewing butted seams? Re: Lame ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 23:13:53 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Re: Posting binaries Sorry, didn't mean to bring up a no-no. I didn't realize that it took up a lot of space, etc. Just was asking. Maybe some type of a web page would be a good idea. Or maybe if they start a newsgroup called "alt.binaries.pictures.historical.costume"? Thanks for informing me. Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: 17 Sep 95 16:13:35 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: corsets in pregnancy Recently, Marie Denikas wrote "About pregnancy. There is a reference to Ann Bolyn (pardon the spelling - they didn't care) on her way to her coronation, very pregnant." For those of you worrying about corsets on the pregnant woman in Tudor times - maternity corsets were considered necessary by doctors (prob male !) up to at least 1960. From the examples I have seen they allowed room for the infant, but were stong, boned and little elastic. I have no wish to start a flame war (PLEASE NO !), but the reasons given for maternity corsets included the FACT that women had weak stomachs and backs. Nature was simply not up to it ! Without this artificial support women would automatically have back ache and their insides would be all over the place. Dee. 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 13:17:30 -0700 From: Stella Nemeth Subject: Togas KenDawe@aol.com said >Quoting you quoting me... :-) >In a message dated 95-09-13 01:17:01 EDT, FULLERDR@VAX1.ACS.JMU.EDU >(Questions are a burden to others; answers are a prison to ones self) writes: >>> And a man draped in his toga could *not* have worn a loncloth or >>>other undergarment! >> >>I have read that they wore a tunica underneath their toga which is a basic >>chemise. > >I know, I thought so, too. Ms. McCullough seems certain sure, though, and >says that she will send copies of her bibliography to anyone who asks nice. I can't swear that I know what a "tunica" is, but I bet it doesn't fasten between the legs like a loincloth does. From what I remember about Ms. McCullough's comment in that book, which I've read, she was talking about the ability of a man in a toga to go to the bathroom without being unwound. If a tunica is what I think it is, it does not qualify as an undergarment any more than a modern day blouse or shirt under a suit jacket does. And from the authenticity discussion... >Mylar, properly spelled with a capital "M" (it's a trademark) is a >colorless polyester film. Yes, much of that "gold" lamee is actually harvest gold-colored shiny plastic strips woven with gold thread which appears metallic when the light hits due to its reflectivity. If any real gold is used it is no more than paint. The weight and drape is very different. I think we've got a problem with semantics here. Which of the following are the two of you discussing? Lamee is a woven fabric that has metal woven into it. It can't be washed or dry cleaned and it tarnishes like mad. I haven't seen any in several decades, but I've also avoided looking for it. For all I know they make bolts of it for Christmas every year. The single knit fabric with the gold or silver (or multicolored) paint on one side isn't lamee. I don't think anyone ever thought it was. It is lots of fun for a Christmas blouse, but it a misery to sew on. Use a brand new teflon needle. There is also a third variety of "metalic" fabric that I'm aware of. It involves a sort of loosely "woven" double knit with metalic fibers in the mix. You can see through it from the inside, but probably not from the outside, and it is very airy and drapes like it was made of air. It is possible that this is being called Lamee. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 13:17:39 -0700 From: Stella Nemeth Subject: Why are we here? The "authenticity" discussion has made me begin to wonder about those, like myself, who have never made a historical garment and who mostly, or always, lurk this list. Why are we here? My own contributions, if you can call them that, have consisted of personal experience (the pantyhose discussion, the "sequin" discussion) and the occasional post to one of the newbies about basic, non period, sewing techniques. I'm here for several reasons. I have sewn all my life, and although I'm not doing much right now, I enjoy talking about it. History has been one of the constant interests in my life. I'm fascinated by historical clothing, and I enjoy learning about how they put them together, even though I can't imagine making such a garment or wearing one. I think that clothes, art, music and all of the decorative arts illuminate periods of history. I'd like to see more emphasis put on all of them in teaching history. I wish the authenticity discussions didn't get quite so acrimonious. That is the major reason behind this message to the group. I think this list has a much wider readership than the postings would lead one to expect. When I was new to the Internet I was positive that most of the newsgroups were inhabited by much smaller populations than were normally given for them because there were so few active posters. My experience in other online venues didn't show such a low poster to lurker ratio. So I am curious; just how big is this group? And if you, like me, mostly lurk, what do you think of the various authenticity discussions? I'll start. I was fascinated by the discussions of what fabrics did and didn't exist and when they got called by their modern names that occurred several months ago. I've enjoyed hearing the reasons behind the choices for more or less strict readings of what is authentic, and why the people defending those choices made them. There is obviously no one right answer here, because where the garments will be worn, and why are quite different. I want to know what we actually know about "period" construction techniques, fabrics, trims, etc., and how and when they changed. I can't imagine hamstringing the creative urges of anyone (no matter how defined) by strict rules of authenticity, unless self imposed. I love the discussions, but I wish the fighting would stop. Stella s.nemeth@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 15:43:35 -0500 From: aboleyn@wichita.fn.net (Anne of Foxmoor and/or Thomas) Subject: Re: corsets in pregnancy >Recently, Marie Denikas wrote > >"About pregnancy. There is a reference to Ann Bolyn (pardon the >spelling - they didn't care) on her way to her coronation, very >pregnant." Also, it is recorded that when Anne Boleyn departed from her barge onto the Tower Grounds to be received by King Henry VIII, he simply put both his hands and swept the outside of her outer robes to place his hands on both of her hips to display the swelling of her belly to the watching populace . . . . Sarah - avid researcher of Queen Anne Boleyn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 19:45:05 -0400 From: Carodec@aol.com Subject: Re: Lame >Lamee is a woven fabric that has metal woven into it. It can't be washed or >dry cleaned and it tarnishes like mad. I haven't seen any in several >decades, but I've also avoided looking for it. For all I know they make >bolts of it for Christmas every year. > There is at least one variety of a real metallic lame available, though you will not find it at mose fabric stores. It is used for making part of the uniform of a foil or sabre fencer. - ---Caroline in Pennsylvania ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 19:40:57 -0400 From: Carodec@aol.com Subject: Re: handsewing vs. Machine sewing I apologize for sending this answer so late, but I was having mailer problems. I hope the thread isn't totally dead yet! In a message dated 95-09-13 17:38:53 EDT, BJHILL wrote: > >I have no problem with hand sewing the costumes I plan to make, >and am actually looking forward to making a new set of clothes >for next years re-enactments, but am wondering if I am not biting >off more than I can chew by handsewing everything. I've been handsewing all my 18th century re-enacting clothing for several years now, along with clothing for several friends. It is well worth the effort! I don't know what sort of clothing you are looking for, but I doubt that it's too big a bite. If necessary, you can always start with some hand-sewn and some partly machine-sewn pieces. I enjoy the sewing itself, but what I enjoy most is knowing that my clothing is as absolutely correct as it is possible for me to make it. When I talk to the public about my clothing, I can show them properly felled seams and stroked gathers, which cannot be perfectly duplicated on the machine. I can answer questions about how long it takes to do certain types of sewing, and what is hardest or easiest. Also, handsewing gives me a more correct attitude toward my clothing. You better believe I take good care of everything I've hand-stitched. I think this attitude lends something extra to a living history presentation as well. I'm certainly not demanding all re-enactors hand sew if it's right for their periods, but if you have any inclination at all to do it, I'd strongly reccomend it! Good luck! - ---Caroline in Pennsylvania ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 19:45:10 -0400 From: Carodec@aol.com Subject: Re: handsewing In a message dated 95-09-13 21:41:51 EDT, Drea wrote: >Even with small, even stitches, the seam >looks slightly different on the outside...it has a slight "wavy" shape when >compared to machine sewing, because there's only one thread on alternate >sides rather than two threads on either side. It's not noticeable unless >you look hard, though. Are you backstitching your seams? I don't know about your period, but backstitching is correct for the 18th century, and does not produce a wavy effect at all, but rather a continuous line of small, even stitches. >I was wondering: what is the difference, in drape, weight and texture, >between modern satin and period silk satin? I've heard legendary tales >of the latter, but don't know if it's the fabric or its $30 a yard price >tag that makes people swoon over it. It's really the fabric. There are silk wholesalers who will send you small test swatches for a reasonable price. Get some. Touch it. Then *try* to put it down. >============================= >We've secretly replaced their >dilithium crystals with new >Folger's crystals. >Now let's watch them go to warp. >============================= I loved this sig line! - ---Caroline in Pennsylvania ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 95 20:14:18 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) (June Russell) Subject: Re: corsets in pregnancy Dee wrote: :I have no wish to start a flame war (PLEASE NO !), but the reasons given for :maternity corsets included the FACT that women had weak stomachs and backs. :Nature was simply not up to it ! Without this artificial support women would :automatically have back ache and their insides would be all over the place. Perhaps after living most of their lives in corsets, they did have weak abdominal muscles and backs. When I was a little girl, corrective shoes and high top walkers were very common. In fact, what self respecting parent *didn't* put them on their toddlers to keep their feet straight and "help them walk". When I was in Pediatric residency (I'm a pediatrician) they had recently learned (about 20 years ago now) that those #*@$% shoes were actually causing more problems than they helped because the foot never was allowed to develop on their own. Now we know (just like we now know with backs--unless you have a medical problem like severe scoloiosis) that the healthiest feet are the ones who *never* wear shoes. That's because the foot develops stronger tendons, ligaments, and muscles than the foot which is essentially allowed to atrophy within a shoe. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:14:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: An authenticity question.... > | Thai silk and fine dupioni with no slubs and "texture" would be great > for silk. > > Could you explain what you mean by Thai silk? I've seen stuff called > "Thai silk" in a number of stores, but obviously what you mean is > something very different because what I saw was slubby in the extreme. > > > As there are many types of silk woven in Thai, the above reference can be taken as a sort of trademark name for the silk fabric sold under that name by the company Thai Silks, or Exotic Silks the wholesale distributor. It consists of a one-ply, (although a friend bought like-woven silk in 2-4 ply weight when in Thailand) smooth hand-woven lustrous, and often 'shot' silk. Very fine, strong, the luster is like a charmeuse, almost, the weave is not a satin, though. Absolutely not a slub anywhere. Nice stuff. I forgot the weave, would have to go home and check. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: 18 Sep 95 10:32:03 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: 1950 Long Line Bra I have several references to the supposed harmful effects of the 1950 long line bra. These bras could, it was reported , severely restrict the movement of the lower ribs and hence the volume of air in respiration. In the 1950s people were very concerned about their lungs, tuberculosis was still a major threat. The evidence seems to support this, the contemporary ads talked of firm midriff control, and movies showed women with tapering rig cages. Accounts from women who were young in the 1950s do tell of a firmness we would probably not want today. In addition, the examples of 1950 LLB available today are firmer, bonier and appear narrower across the ribs than their equivalent today. Can anyone provide further information, perhaps from research, re-enactment or from personal memory ? Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 08:17:18 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) (June Russell) Subject: cartridge pleating I'm interested in the history of cartridge pleating. I've found what looks like cartridge pleating as far back as the 13th century (on a gardecorp from 1258). My questions: 1. Does anyone have information on the sewing technique now called cartridge pleating from before that date? 2. What was it called in previous times? (I think I saw mention of "stroked gathers" in a post. Is that cartridge pleating? Is that what it was called then?) 3. What methods of gathering, pleating and sewing were done? Just trying to expand the borders of my knowledge. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:03:43 -0600 (CST) From: BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Subject: Sewing I would like to thank everyone for their assistance in the handsewing vs. machine sewing discussion. Even though I have decided that I would hand sew my new set of clothes, basically because I think I would like the feeling of knowing that I sewed every stitch myself. Secondly, because the sewing machine would not be invented and available for widespead use for yet some fourty plus years after my period of interest. Well, that was Friday, Saturday I ran across such a great buy that I could't pass it up. Sound familiar? ;) I bought a Pfaff model 332 for $75.00. But alas there was no book to go with it. My question then is, Does anybody have this book and be willing to part with it for a short term? be willing to sell a copy of this book? or know where I could purchase a book to go with this machine? Many thanks in advance, brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:56:53 -0400 (EDT) From: MELLYRN@ENH.NIST.GOV Subject: butted seams? Hello from another lurker, of the lazy, cheap & stupid variety. Question: A certain lady (in all senses of the word), being herself a weaver has suggested that, once you've put *that* much work into making your fabric, you're not going to waste a square inch you don't have to. She taught a class one Pennsic on how to cut, shape & create till all your scraps left out of, say, 12 yards, amount to a handful of shreds suitable only for stuffing--it was wonderful. She suggested that period people were frugal enough to wish to avoid even the "waste" represented by seam allowances, & mentioned "butted" seams as being used. Were they? (Though she was obviously cheap, was she also lazy wrt research, or stupid?) Were they unusual, standard, or unheard-of? Does anyone have any suggestions on how to manage, reinforce or otherwise treat the raw edges for butted seams so they don't fray or fall apart? Always using selvage edges doesn't seem practical... - ---mellyrn, too cheap to be *really* lazy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:30:41 -0400 From: "Laurie E. W. Brandt" Subject: Re: Lame In message <950917194504_21901946@mail06.mail.aol.com> writes: > > > >Lamee is a woven fabric that has metal woven into it. It can't be washed or > >dry cleaned and it tarnishes like mad. I haven't seen any in several > >decades, but I've also avoided looking for it. For all I know they make > >bolts of it for Christmas every year. > > > > There is at least one variety of a real metallic lame available, though you > will not find it at mose fabric stores. It is used for making part of the > uniform of a foil or sabre fencer. I don't know where you are, but Mill Ends in Portland Or. has lame in a multitude of colors for about $10.00 a yard check the back of Sewing News for their ad. Laurie > > ---Caroline in Pennsylvania ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #189 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!