From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #191 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, September 19 1995 Volume 3, Number 191 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Some sparse information on silks fourteenth c. England Re: Costuming Standards For Groups Tailors to the royal family, Edward III Italian Boning Handstitch and Authentic comments Re: organ pipe pleating New patterns Re: Butted Seams Hi :) corset / pregnancy, and health ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:05:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Some sparse information on silks fourteenth c. England Terms of silks for the fourteenth century England But first it should be stated thus: terms for the various types and weaves of silk in modern times are inconsistant, regional and very difficult to try to cross language boundaries and find common terms, but for medieval times -shudder- impossible, espeically with definitions assigned to them by later periods. "What quantities [of silks] were imported is not known, nor is much known about the types of material actually available. Documents produce quite a range of terms and, as is the case with woollen cloth, excavated finds support this, producint a diversity of wieghts and weaves. Linking a term to an actual example of a woven silk is a very uncertain business, and may indeed now be impossible to prove for certain." Medieval Courtly Splendour, Costume, Staniland, K, vol. 14 1980. I have some easy books the "All about Silk book" etc. describing terms of silk and then saying for all the years of research the terms are still to be considered fast and loose and NOT definitive. To embellish the samite for my period: samyt which is rarely mentioned in the Great Wardrobe Accounts (I don't have my other accounts which would have been perfect for this so there may well be addendums or corrections.) Very popular in contemporary literature "It is thought to be a form of damask and frequently appears to include gold.("Clothing and Textiles at the Court of Edward III 1342-1352" Costume [hereafter called CTCEIII] But then: "It is now well established that samyts correspond to weft-faced compound twills, sometimes woven completely in silk, but also found as half-silks with linen main warps.-- *See Donald King, 'Sur la signification de "Diasprum"', CIETA Bulletin XI (1960) and 'Silk weaves of Lucca in 1376,' Stockholm 1988.-- from the article "Silk Cloths Purchased for the Great Wardrobe of the Kings of England, 1325-1462" by Lisa Monnas in Textile history vol 20, 1989. I guess that clears it up. :-) Samitelli may have indicated a slightly cheaper, plainer version of this silk. Both samyts and samitellys drop off in consumption during the end of Edward IIIs reign, the last time it is bought is 1370. Tartaryn is similarly thought to be a cloth of gold though reference to it in th 1345-1349 accounts do not mention gold. It was used for altar covers and robes.(CTCEIII) More expensive than taffeta. syndon and cendall (alternate spellings sendal sendall) cheap lining silk, light weight used for making room and bed hangings, lining garments etc. Syndon was also used for linen, but was recorded "interchangeably" with silks, specifically cendall at one time or another in the Wardrobe accounts. taffeta, seems the only silk people confidently assume is like our modern taffeta. used for bed hangings (339 ells for little William of Windsor's bed), also for a jousting outfit in the great books.(CTCEIII) Taffata was very inexpensive only 6-18d per ell. (Lisa Monnas) 'Rakematiz' in categories of cloth of gold as in chapel vestments of blue and gold rakematiz powdered with serpents and dragons, for Princess Joan, appear to be similar to silks now classified as Lucchese (from the Italian weaving center from Lucca-talk about spectacular weaves!)(CTCEIII) Also spelled racamaz supposedly the heaviest among all the cloths of gold and are mentioned in the Lucchese statutes of 1376. Used for the wedding robe of Princess Joan when she was to be married to Prince Pedro the cruel of Castile. (Lisa Monnas) Cigaston as in Robes for the King and Duke of Lancaster made from cloth of gold cigaston powdered with stars and crescents of gold and lined with miniver, or a robe of these garments made for the King was of cigaston of which the ground was deep blue ('ynde colori') [color of India] powdered with wings and lozenges woven in gold, and used for 'jupouns' for jousts and two 'corsettas' for Princess Joan.(CTCEIII) attaby, also described as polychrome, mottele, 'changing' or shot are some of the terms (I have others I just didn't bring them to work, more info to come) for cloths that changed their colors. Tartaryn and attaby, taffeta and tabby and tolozin were all described with shot examples. Shot required a whole or partial tabby weave for effect. satin, was used for lining, the outer face of garments, and tents. Five-shaft satin reached England during the 13th c., but doesn't appear in wardrobe until 1340s. Demysatyn was a lighter satin or at least the width and cost were half of saytn. Also terms for satin were zatan dupl. Satin was a more expensive lining than cendal or tartaryn. I should have four or five other sources, the Hispanic Textiles, account of wardrobe for goods after Fastolfes death, goods seized from Duke of Gloucester by Richard II for treason, the Silk weaves of Lucca 1376, maybe others, but they are at home. I will try to bring them in and add to this soon. Forgive the incompleteness of the posting Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:15:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Coffey Subject: Re: Costuming Standards For Groups On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Carol Kocian wrote: > > ...I wondered about other people's experience concerning costuming > standards for groups. Military & civilian reenactment units, dance > groups, etc. need to strive for everyone to be of good quality. > > .... How do the groups out there go about educating and directing > their new members? Are new people expected to be dressed perfectly > the first time out, even if in borrowed clothes? Or are they given a > period of time to get their things together (a "recruit" stage), and > encouraged to participate in incomplete outfits? Some groups "vote in" > new members after this period of time. > I have worked with a few museums over the years developing clothing programs for their first person interpretations. Generally I have the museum is able to provide a base of information for individuals to work with. Individuals are encouraged to continue accurate research for the time period and are asked to share this information. To maintain authenticity final approval for any new information is given by the staff. What has worked best when developing a clothing program, in my experience, is a series of workshops. Generally I have started out with some sort of overview presentation. In this I include individuals dressed in proper period clothing, slides, and if available original garments for the interpreters to study. (Yes white gloves are always required.) Next we progress to a series of workshops. This will enable the individuals to have an opportunity to sew, discuss, and develope their individual clothing impressions. The museum I am working with currently has a workshop one night every month. Other museums I have dealt with have had similar workshops. One living history site , eventually was able to fund a permanent sewing workroom, hire experts in specific areas such as pattern development or corset construction. They have also been able to provide new volunteers with the basic clothing necessary to appear as interpreters until they can provide their own clothing. This site currently has professional and volunteer producing garments for individuals not involved with the clothing program. Not everything an interpreter needs can be produced on site, we have provided a list of 'approved' vendors and accessories that they can choose from. This would include shoes, stockings, clothing manufacturers, eyeglasses, etc. Any items made or purchased from other than 'official' sources may not be accepted by the site management. I still find one of the most difficult aspects of clothing a group of individuals is to provide them with 'individual' accurate without having everyone look like a clone. And at the same interprete the normal everyday and not the exception Developing an accurate clothing program is not accomplished overnight or single handedly. It requires constant research, effort, (and sewing) of many people. It is my opinion, that a museum should first determine the highest acceptable standards for their clothing program and work towards that goal from the first day. Several years ago, an organization I worked with developed a set of volunteer incentatives which helped volunteers offset the cost of improving their period impressions. That program program proved very successful. Elizabeth Coffey cseac@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:26:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Tailors to the royal family, Edward III I just thought it would be fun posting the tailors to the royal family, recorded in the Great Wardrobe, during the reign of Edward III: King Edward John Marreys Queen Phillipa William of London Queen Isabella Will'o Galeys of England (Queen Mother) Prince of Wales Will'mo de Statton Lionel of Clarence Thome de London John of Gaunt Ricardo de Walton Edmund of Langley Ricardo do Zeuele Isabelle Johanni de Bromlegh Joanna William de Lynham Mary William de Mertok Elizabeth de Burgh Robert Pynel Margaret Thomas of Glamorgan Elianore, Countess Thomas of Tameworth of Arundel Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 95 13:53:19 EST From: cthulhu.engr.sgi.com!sgi.engr.sgi.com!SMTPGWY!dlxibm!Liz_Jones Subject: Italian Boning After slaving away today catching up on the 300 messages from this list (!) I have a few replies to post: On Italian bodices mid 15th century to early 16th: I have been experimenting with this time frame for several years now. I can offer the following observations: I think that there was no boning used until after about 1520 or so, but that control was given by using several layers of fabric or an underdress. The under-dress (camora, gamurra) was certainly appropriate up to the turn of the 16th century, and probably past depending on geographic area. After about 1510, one does not see evidence of the underdress, but it seems to turn into a underskirt as may happen with it's "kirtle" counterpart in England (as per recent postings). I do feel that the later, lower waisted dresses of 1540, etc. were either boned or worn over a pair of bodies (Janet Arnold, Eleanor of Toledo...) Prior to 1500, it would be inappropriate for formal occasions to be seen without an over-dress (giornea, cioppa), except perhaps in extreme hot weather, etc. MOst of this is from Herald, Ren. Dress in Italy, 1400-1500. Now for my sewing experience: when I first made a camora of about 1480, I did use light plastic (uck) boning, as I believed that I would need some support. This was only in the front, and the bodice was fairly natural in height. I also experimented with a cut that was lower in the neckline, and higher in the waist from about 1510. I used a small amount of steel boning in these. I now feel that there was no boning at all in any of these, but that there was enough thickness in the layers to provide support and control, giving a natural look, like a kirtle, or a somewhat bulky look later on. The portrait of Lucretia in a orange and green pieced dress circa 1530(affectionately referred to as the "pumpkin dress") by I can't remember who right now, shows ripples of fabric in the bodice, as if it was padded. At any rate, it wasn't the perfectly smooth flat front of a Tudor. My recommendation is not to bone anything prior to 1520, and then use discretion. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 95 13:53:23 EST From: cthulhu.engr.sgi.com!sgi.engr.sgi.com!SMTPGWY!dlxibm!Liz_Jones Subject: Handstitch and Authentic comments More late replies from one returned to the email world. I combine these together because they brought the same project to mind: I have been handstitching a great deal of parts of my projects for several years. This is mainly due to the cartridge pleating, technical problem issue of no other replacement via a sewing machine. But after you do most of a garment, with only the straight long seams by machine, you begin to wonder if one should just go all the way and do the whole thing. I argue with myself over practically every garment. The more authentic the fabrics, the more I argue. Recently I embarked on a "recreation" type piece for an SCA exhibit: a men's giornea from 1440-1450 from the Adoration of the Magi, by Domenico Veneziano. This is a very memorable small round portrait that hangs in the Dahlem Museum in Berlin. It shows a back view of a blond man wearing a bird-like garment reminiscent of wings, feathers, etc. Some on this list have seen my interpretation at Pennsic. Anyway, here's the point. I knew this would be a huge project because of the level of detail involved, and lack of existent data or extant clothing like it. Although my base fabric was of a period nature (burgundy damask), I did not intend to spend a fortune on the project, because it wasn't the reason for doing it. I did find that the requirement for the fluttery stuff was definitely silk, and used some that I had. Having done that, I started wondering if everything should be silk, and doubted my choice of accent and lining material: heavy satin of a teal color. Regardless of my knowledge that this satin acetate was not authentic, I was not trying to recreate a "period" copy, down to every materialistic detail. As I kept going, I almost ordered a bunch of teal silk to use instead of the bridal satin, which I had bought very reasonably. I stopped myself from doing it, because it seemed pointless. The problem is, as I get more into a project like this, I start disliking any parts of it that are not period, but yet have to reason with myself that it is still a costume, for god's sake, and I should not get totally carried away. I stuck with the acetate, but handsewed with a lot of silk thread. This may be a paradox, but I think it is part of recreation sewing as opposed to pieces intended for a museum, etc. A discussion we had regarding clothing authenticity is that we learn every day, but hate to discard clothes that are not up to our current standards. Many times I have wished to wear a placard on my body saying "YES - I know what is wrong with this garb, but I made it three years ago, so you don't have to think that I don't know what I'm doing!!!" No-one has every been crass enough to do such a thing, but I feel the need to put garb disclaimers on every incorrect thing I've ever done!!! Another related hand sewing point to the 1440 giornea project: I inserted gored pieces in the body (after hours of internal debate) and "taped" the underside to give the regimented fluted pleating of this time period. Although I sewed most of these long seams by machine, I had to stop an inch from the top, and do the rest by hand. This was because there is a definite three dimensional effect evident on sculpture in period that shows the pleats (whether inserted or natural) pushing outwards. This cannot be done with a machine. To sum up: this project was probably the most "authentic" thing I have ever done, and yet I recognized issues that I did not correct even as I did them. I am sure that there will be aspects that I dislike about it later, and may need to put a placard on my husband when he wears it. Part of the fun is the guesswork, and the amount that I learned from discussion with others was without equal. I consider myself a possible authenticity candidate, except that my motto is usually: if you can defend your decisions, then that's acceptable. Just raising the questions is progress in itself. That's the reasonable side of this post: now to embark on deep waters: when I read a certain recent posting that referred to SCA character, I was shocked, angry and then amused: a fitting end to the flames, perhaps. It is as my husband's grandmother said: "words are like bullets - you can't ever take them back". Anyway, I am not offended, as I have on occasion been catty myself, although I do not consider it to be part of my nature. Life goes on in the SCA and the internet... I would welcome discussion (not on the last bit, mind you!) on structured pleating of 1400's Italy, and enjoy this list immensely!! Liz Jones aka Damiana Illaria d'Onde (SCA) ljones@datalogix.com (you can't reply - must address new each time!!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 95 09:02:02 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: organ pipe pleating I realized last night that a while a photo is provided of the organ-pipe pleated military bases I described in a prior post in "The History of Costume" _2nd_edition_, by Blanche Payne, the diagram pattern and instructions are no longer provided. I have them in zerox form from a previous edition. If I did not have these instructions, the photo might lead to a cartridge-pleated conclusion, but the organ-pipe pleating method doesn't use any draw threads at all. It just pinches a seam down the length of each pleat on the back side and uses stay tapes to hold the pleats in place. There is very little ease in the waist, so the pattern must be calculated to the waist size desired. I have made several men's basecoats (Waffenrocks, Faltenrocks, Paltrocks..) using this method and found it works extremely well to get that perfect wide-topped fixed pleat. It also conserves fabric when compared to cartridge pleating. I have been too lazy to organ-pipe a women's skirt so far, and have been using cartridge pleats for German Women's early 16th cent., but the pleats don't stay as perfect. (Both are documentable.) Does anyone out there have any additional references for this technique? Has anyone used this method for Houpelandes or Womens skirts? Shaubes? Julie Adams julie_adams@corp.cubic.com (out of town next week...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:19:24 -0500 (CDT) From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Subject: New patterns I haven't seen this posted yet, so I thought that I would add it. Saundra Altman at Past Patterns is introducing six new patterns, starting in October. All but one are from the period of the American Civil War. The first will be either a sacque and petticoat, or a dressing gown. Others will include a covered hoop petticoat, two different corsets (one side lacing), and a set of undergarments 1830-1860 which includes a pocket and a stick out petticoat (corded, I think), and maybe another item. She is accepting orders now, and so far is not adding mailing costs--I suppose as a pre-publication incentive. On a side note, I saw an original CW era dressing gown this weekend at a vintage fashion sale and show in Dallas, well, Richardson really. The gown was of a dark floral print, mostly maroon, with solid maroon quilted panels down the front, quilted maroon fake pocket flaps, maroon small standup collar, and maroon crochet buttons down the front and on the pocket flaps. The entire thing was lined in brown paper muslin, and there were ties to keep the back snug against the back waist. The front went straight down, but the back was pieced, both in the bodice (which was like a fitted dress bodice) and the skirt (which had several large triple pleats). It was very beautiful, in very good shape, and way out of my budget. However.....with this new pattern I may be able to get close to it. Sorry, I don't have the prices nor the phone number for Past Patterns handy here at work. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu vbetts@gower.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 17:02:08 -0400 From: Carodec@aol.com Subject: Re: Butted Seams In a message dated 95-09-19 12:00:30 EDT, another Caroline wrote: > >Butted Seams? > >The only true butt seams I've come across are in leatherwork (butt seams >are used on the sides of shoes). Even in faggotting you need some seam >allowance. Faggotting was used to make decorate seams on smocks and shirts >in the 16th century. I have seen butted seams used in the 18th century on table linens, blankets, and the like, though not on clothing. > >The Dread WorD! > >I agree with Heather, I find research and extending my knowledge fun. Am >I allowed to say that I find the assumption that, because I am interested >in being as accurate as possible, I am automatically a killjoy, rather >insulting? I would like to thank you for saying this, as I agree wholeheartedly. I'm another living-historian who finds authenticity to be lots of fun! - ---Caroline in Pennsylvania ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:54:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Faedrah Subject: Hi :) This is my first post for this list so please excuse my ambigous question. Can anyone out there suggest a book, prefarably still in print, where I could find Irish costuming say about 1150-1350? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 95 04:07:10 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: corset / pregnancy, and health Well a couple added comments on corsetry. First acording to a back specialist that I saw about 25 years ago there is or was a correlation between back problems and corsetry. When I saw him with soreness in my lower back he suggested that I get a properly fitted corset of correct my posture. He also claimed that since women stopped wearing properly built corsets more and more of them were seeing him with back problems. The benifits of a proper built corset were two fold. First they constantly reminded the wear of the proper posture for there back and secondly they provided suport. The support is something that was secondary as simply maintaining the correct posture took care of 80% of the problems in itself. The key he claimed was properly fitted. An of the shelf corset that is not custom fitted could cause more harm than good by applying pressure to the wrong parts of the spinal cord. Another interesting corelation he made was upper body weight had a big correlation to womens back problems, but not to mens back problems. Secondly on corsets for pregant women. I have come across several refrences to these in the past. If my memory serves me correctly they were usually side laced and sometimes even front laced. Also they were no so much constructed to diminish the appearance of the load being carried but more as a an in posture and for support. My feelings are that corsets regardless if for men or women are not the taboo, back breaking item some people make them out to be. But they must be properly fitting to the individual as well as properly designed. Trying to fit a 30 inch waist into a 24 inch corset is not what they should be used for. And the problems that we often here about were mainly from this type of contortionism. dennis ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #191 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!