From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #193 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, September 20 1995 Volume 3, Number 193 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Looking for information on costume show giving (fwd) Re: Fabric Questions Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #191 Re: Fabric Questions/Musings Re: Past Patterns New patterns Re: Why are we here? Revised Class Schedule for East Bay Vintage Dance Society Why are we here? Button-down collars Authenticity Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #191 Tabby silk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:33:42 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Looking for information on costume show giving (fwd) I'm passing this on to the h-costume list as perhaps someone here has more information than I do on this subject. I suggested contacting the San Jose Historical Museum and posting on the Vintage Clothing mailing list. I'll set "reply-to" to go to fhonnef@bgnet.bgsu.edu directly: frederick honneffer wrote: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:40:42 -0400 (EDT) > From: frederick honneffer Subject: Looking for information To: close I hope this is being read by Diane? Hello, I am Eric Honneffer, document conservator at Bowling Green State University and previously a subscriber to h-costume. I have a question that I am hoping you might be able to answer or know who might. A collegue of mine has been appointed coordinator of Women's History week at Harper College in Palatine, Illinois. This will take place in the first week of March, 1996. She felt that it would be beneficial to have a fashion review with individuals modeling American women's clothing from approximately the colonial period to present. The clothing she would like to include should be reflective of the changing roles of women. Do you know anyone whom she could contact that would be willing to assist with this or perhaps has done a similar production and could provide the needed expertise. Any advice or information you or others could provide would be gratefully received. Thanks so much. Eric Honneffer Frederick N. Honneffer Document Conservator Center for Archival Collections Fifth Floor Jerome Library Bowling Green State University Bowling Green, Ohio 43403 fhonnef@bgnet.bgsu.edu - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:06:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Fabric Questions Dear gaelscot[?] Thank you for saying you enjoyed the post, your the first person to even mention it existed, I was beginning to wonder. Most fabrics were woven or embroidered with designs, there was block printing, stamping, painting and powdering. Block printing and painting are fairly obvious, powdering may have been attached by glue, but I don't know and there is very little information I've come across on what stamping consisted of, perhaps it was impression like modern cloque, perhaps it was more specific to attaching metal to the fabric. Perhaps someone else knows. Confession: I really don't sew much, I don't know how and won't take a class as medieval techniques are vastly different from modern. Actually I don't even research clothing, I'm looking for basic info on sumptuary legislation, what fabrics were more expensive than others and denied to the lower classes. I think I have been very side-tracked by this group into costume research. I do enjoy it though so I may as well stop fighting it. > trying to catch up on garment construction of the 14th and 15th centuries. > But so far I've confined myself to plain colors. Must I? And what about trim? > Most of the paintings I've seen imply trim, but only sketch it in. Where can > I find out more about what they usually used? What paintings are you looking at? Trim as I understand it in modern terms denotes a woven or embroidered fabric braid attached to the edging of a costume. Which does not describe most of fourteenth century England. England by the way was considered to have very simple dull dress compared with Italy, Germany, France especially fifteenth century. Anyway, there are stips of metal and jewels beaten and attached to fabric hems, and fur for edging mostly. I have come across very occaisional references to edges the term appears as perfold and is supposed to come from the french pourfiler - to work on the edge, although what this consists of I don't know. It was more important to get the right fabrics and brocades, linings and fur, and layers and cut, at least in fourteenth century England. England also had a higher esteem of embroidery than France and the rest of the continent in this century, and paid a bundle for it on ecclesiastical garments and on royal special occasions. But you wouldn't walk around just in a dress with embroidery on it. Oh yes, buttons and needles (See Richard II) very dressy and important to show if you could afford it. Found out I have many articles have to write the addendum over some time. Specific question I might be more help on. And don't be ashamed of your background, your hear and eager to learn which is the highest frame of mind possible as far as I'm concerned. "All I know is that I know nothing" -Socrates Teresa > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 13:03:28 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #191 Re: that last posting from Dennis on proper corsets, posture and back problems, reminded me that one of the places that does provide custom-made corsets are medical supply houses! (for people with back problems) I wear a "wrist corset" to remind me to hold my hands in the correct "posture" at the keyboard, so the doctor's comments about corsets makes sense. Also, very large-busted women often have severe back and shoulder problems (everyone see that episode on Roseanne?) until they undergo reduction surgery (my mother had this done and it made a world of difference) (2 c. worth of idle commentary) Thanks to Teresa for posting that luscious info. on silks. Did anyone notice how many of the terms used derive from Arabic or farther east? e.g. satin, tabby, etc. I know Europe was importiiing textiles from Mamluk Egypt and Syria (Damascus) in this period, Frederick II (?) coronation robe was Mamluk, I wonder if they (the Arabs) were weaving esp. for the European market and/or if European weavers were copying islamic textiles. Any Chinese silks imported into Europe at this time (I think Teresa referred to the 14th c. primariily)? Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 95 14:01:29 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: Fabric Questions/Musings Very off the cuff: I believe there were a variety of stamping techniques, I think some are mentioned in Elizabeth's wardrobe unlocked, by Janet Arnold, using hot irons to impress a pattern, usually used to burn the velvet nap off, or impress a pattern into it. From some bookbinding research, I know that is how they also apply metal to leather (the thin gilt layer). Somewhere I saw a Jost Amman woodcut (late 16th cent.) of guys with patterned rollers putting a pattern on flat strips of something (could have been paper though), and try as I might I can't seem to re-find that woodcut! Has anyone seen that one? The pattern matched the one on the German ladies banding seen on many Lucas Cranach paintings, which is usually painted without depth, very flat and shiny, unlike other brocades where if you look at the real painting there is a physical texture (in the same painting). I was thinking this could be printed on a satin, but it would have to be printed on bias cut strips to work for trimming the gowns I had in mind. Hmmmm. Maybe the lines are embroidered with satin stitches. Hmmmm. Then in one of the various cathedral museums (I think in Regensburg), I came across an ecclesiastical garment which had a smooth gold ground with one of *the patterns* I was looking for. It had what seemed to be a single layer of semi-faded blackish red threads brocaded to make solid line patterns overall, but was not quite as orange in color as the pictures. Hmmm again. I think I've seen the word "powdered" refer to cloth embroidered with sprinkled designs scattered about, referring to Byzantine fabric, but that was a modern, not period reference. Some of the fabrics in German museums had a motif embroidered on one fabric, then the motif transferred and appliqued on the ground fabric. From a practical aspect, I've known people who have tried painting/printing silk, supposedly with researched "period" materials, but have been dissappointed with rather poor results over the long term, but not familiar with the details. I have read many references to painted decorative fabric (such as for Tournaments), but those were not expected to stay pretty. Horse sweat and weapons are nasty on fabric. Thanks Teresa, I really love the fabric info. - -- julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 18:14:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter LEE Subject: Re: Past Patterns New patterns Hi there, >> Past patterns phone #: 616-245-9465 > > I tried that number it was the wrong one. Oops a typo- Past Patterns phone # is: 616-245-9456 Sorry... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 21:21:11 -0400 From: McMovers@aol.com Subject: Re: Why are we here? Alright, I'll step out of the shadows and be counted. I rarely ever post anything because I'm not that knowledgable about historical costuming. I'm a dance historian and i've found the mailing list to be interesting, informative and amusing. I'm forced from time to time to put together costuming for dances myself and I try to be as historically acurate as possible. I feel it is important to the integrity of any historical dancing to be wearing clothing as true to the time as possible. I find that just putting on the right clothes can completely change your way of moving and then your way of thinking and feeling. I confess to being one of those people who sit and gripe through movies when I feel the clothes are not true to the time period (this drives my husband crazy!) I can't help it, the effect jars me right out of and "suspension of disbelief" and the movie is ruined. Anachronistic hair-dos really bug me, too. I used to work for the LIvng History Centre in the SF Bay Area and they were pretty strict about having the "right" clothes, hair ect. It was alittle annoying at first but in truth i appreciated their efforts. No one ever suggested that costumes should be hand sewn, however, I can't even imagine tackling that! I usually need my costumes done yesterday! I've found this list to be a great source for patterns and things like steel boning and hoop wire. I learn new things all the time and questions are raised- What are cartridge pleats and I've been wondering what samite was since I was about 14 years old? Plus, I've just been forced to move across the country to VA where I know no one and this is the closest thing to adult conversation I get somedays. Jen "The forces of evil are... a really, really bad thing!" -the Tick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:10:34 -0700 From: Allan Terry Subject: Revised Class Schedule for East Bay Vintage Dance Society VINTAGE DANCE CLASSES The REVISED East Bay Vintage Dance Society schedule for the rest of September through November is: September 23: Ragtime dance taught by Stan Isaacs September 30: Boston variations taught by Allan Terry & Frances Grimble October 7: Victorian waltz variations taught by Terry & Grimble October 14: Authentic Regency waltzes taught by Terry & Grimble October 21: Regency longways sets with authentic steps taught by Terry & Grimble. Dances researched for this class October 28: NO CLASS--THE HALL WAS RENTED OUT FROM UNDER US November 4: Victorian dance November 11: Victorian dance November 18: Victorian dance November 25: NO CLASS--THANKSGIVING SPECIAL RENAISSANCE CANARY WORKSHOP ON DECEMBER 16 The Victorian dances taught will include mazurka waltzes, 5/4 waltzes, Newport, Napoleonienne, Bronco, and interesting polka, galop, and schottische variations. All dance variations are researched from original sources, some especially for this class. We do our best to always teach fresh and interesting material, and to teach good styling. All classes will be held on Saturday mornings, 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. at St. Johns Presbyterian Church 2727 College Avenue, Room 203 Berkeley, California The price is $6/person. No partner required. Men and couples are certainly welcome. But if any women are worried about having a partner--for some reason this class consistently has more men than women. This is a regular series of weekly classes that will continue in upcoming months. For further information, call Clare Burmeister at (510) 527-5588. Or e-mail clareb@consensus.com or aterry@teknowledge.com ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 95 23:10:23 EDT From: "Dawn T. Jacobson" <74647.1271@compuserve.com> Subject: Why are we here? Stella Nemeth asked: >Why are we here?< I'm here because I'm a historian, and a lover of "dress-up". 8-D I was fortunate enough to learn to sew when I was small (around 7), and have a mother that loved to make elaborate costumes for me to play "dress-up" in (she's now doing the same for my niece). This, combined with a tremendous love for history, has resulted in my building and wearing historical costumes for different purposes for more than 20 years now. This particular list serves as a useful adjunct to the fora on the commercial on-line services--postings tend to be longer, more carefully thought out (under most circumstances), and delve into some unusual aspects of historical costuming that may be overlooked in other arenas. I find it interesting that, in many cases, subjects under discussion here frequently are paralleled in other forums/newsgroups/listservs. >...what do you think of the various authenticity discussions?< Discussions of various points of authenticity, also referred to as "arguing over the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin," does actually serve a useful purpose. Frequently it is nit-picking, and serves no purpose but to churn up everything, including many people's stomach juices. 8-> It can, however, disseminate information, and slowly move the entire hobby/sport/lifestyle that revolves around historic costuming forward. The base level of historical costuming seen at most events is much higher now than it was 15-20 years ago. It is easier to find research materials, patterns, and historically correct fabrics and accessories. All of this has come about, not only by growth in the hobby, but by those participating slowly "raising up the bar" by arguing fine points and demanding more of themselves and everyone around them. I dislike ill-mannered, acrimonious discussions--they only hurt other people's feelings. However, a clever, witty discussion can be both fun and a learning experience. That "Send" key may a little too accessible--it _is_ a great temptation to dash off a scathing reply to a post in the heat of the moment. However, every time I've done it, I've felt a complete fool the instant the message is on its way, with no way of retrieving it. Perhaps we all should be required to write our comments, then allow them to sit in our computers for 24 hours before they may be sent on--it would allow time for tempers to cool, and reason to clear. 8-) Enough lecturing for this evening. Go outside and play! Dawn T. Jacobson 74674.1271@compuserve.com "If you haven't grown up by 35, you don't have to!" --Dinotopian adage ------------------------------ Date: 20 Sep 95 23:10:26 EDT From: "Dawn T. Jacobson" <74647.1271@compuserve.com> Subject: Button-down collars A perusal of old Sears catalogs has revealed that in 1900, a man could buy a flannel "fireman's shirt" with pearl buttons at the collar points. The only "button-down" collared shirts between 1900 and 1908 were made of flannel, and were specifically "overshirts" for working outdoors. By 1927 (my latest catalog), Sears did not carry any type of button-down collared shirt. Unfortunately, I have no idea when the button-down collared dress shirt (aka "the Preppie") became popular. Dawn T. Jacobson 74674.1271@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:15:47 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Authenticity Hello! I don't want to cause any ripples, but I did want to say something in defence of the SCA and creative application of costuming research. I _do_ envy the authenticity standards involved in Civil War Re-enactment groups and with the SCA was a little closer to this level. On the other hand, that level can be daunting for new interested parties. I, myself, flunked Home Ec. and never finished a sewing project in my life until I joined the SCA 5 years ago. I couldn't finish a nightgown, but within a month of joining the SCA I had actually made an Elizabethan bodice and skirt! (I still can't make mundane clothes...I don't know why.) I simply could not have joined a rigidly authentic re-enactment group. I didn't have the skills or money. Because of my involvement in the SCA, however, I'm now a fairly well-respected costumer...about to make a giant leap forward in quality due to this list. :) However, I still consider myself a costume designer. I understand the appeal of recreating a portrait, but let's face it, if we _were_ 16th century noblewomen and copied the gown of the queen exactly, we would have found ourselves in a lot of hot water. Also, a minor noblewoman might have one or two gowns. If I put all my time and money into a single gown a year (and didn't buy mundane clothes) I could possibly afford to create one of these miracles of authenticity. But I can't. (Of course, I would be afraid to wear it! One lout steps on your hem while you're dancing...one beer gets spilled on your bodice...one cigarette butt is left burning on the ground...and it's just too expensive to replace.) So I use coat-lining satin, upholstery velvet and cotton. And I use a machine for everything I can get away with. We naturally bring modern sensibilities of cleanliness, beauty, modesty, colour and pattern coordination to everything we create. (How many people recreate authentic 16th century make-up? Ugh!) Why should we feel embarrassed about bringing along the modern sensibility of financial concerns? And of time management in a world that expects different tasks from us than from our 16th century predecessors? One more comment in defense of the SCA. We learn history by trying to recreate it. And we _do_ learn. As soon as an intrigued newcomer attends his first event, he learns about costuming, food, dancing, broadsword fighting, music, pageantry...not everything, and not every detail is correct, but he is still learning more than he knew before, and maybe he'll be interested enough to do his own research. Okay...one more comment. As far as I know, the SCA is the only thing around. Does anyone know of 16th century re-enactment group with a chapter in Southern Ontario? *plink, plink* Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:27:51 -0400 From: margritt@mindspring.com (Margritte) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #191 At 1:03 PM 9/20/95, Susan Fatemi wrote: >Thanks to Teresa for posting that luscious info. on silks. Did anyone notice >how many of the terms used derive from Arabic or farther east? e.g. satin, >tabby, etc. I hope I'm not too far off subject with this, but it's been driving me nuts... Can anybody relate the story of how the word "tabby" came to be applied to striped cats? I heard it once, but the story went in one ear and out the other. I think the word originally was a title for a ruler, or perhaps the land he ruled, and then it was used to describe a type of cloth, and then later came to be used to describe cats. Can anyone fill in the holes? Thanks. - -Margritte - ------------------------------------------------------------ Gryphon's Moon - Request our free catalog of Celtic jewelry. email margritt@mindspring.com or check out our web page at http://www.mindspring.com/~maclain/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:42:44 +1000 (EST) From: Carolyn Fraser Subject: Tabby silk On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Margritte wrote: > I hope I'm not too far off subject with this, but it's been driving me > nuts... Can anybody relate the story of how the word "tabby" came to be applied to striped cats. It would appear that the markings on a tabby cat were seen to be similar to tabby silk in apearance. The Draper's Dictionary: a Manual of Textile Fabrics Their History and Application (published 1882), begins the entry under TABBY with: A kind of silk taffety watered or waved. After listing similar definitions from Bailey, and Johnson, it lists this from Richardson: A kind of waved silk; an artificial stone, a mixture of shells, gravel, stones and water. (Fr. tabis, Persian utabi, a kind of rich waved silk). *[I think the wavy stripes and blobby spots on my old tabby's fur are very much like this description!] After various other descriptions of a similar nature, the entry reads: A manufacture introduced here *[the dict. was published in London] by the French refugees of 1685, and previously imported from their country. "Tabby Grogram: and "Tabbies of Silk Towers" are shown as imports in the time of Charles I, and Strutt quotes from an inventory of the wardrobe of his successor, Tabby at 8s. 6d., Morello Tabby, from 10s. 6d. to 11s., and Scarlet Morello Tabby at 12s. the yard. The entry ends with some quotes from 17th century writings showing the use of the word as applied to clothing, one of which is from Pepys. BTW - my Oz dictionary (The Macquarie) suggests that the word originated from "'Attabiya", a quarter of Baghdad, presumably where waved or watered silk originated? Any comments? Carolyn Fraser Brisbane, Australia ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #193 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!