From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #194 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, September 21 1995 Volume 3, Number 194 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Elegant Finery and other things Re: Fabric Questions/Musings button collar On trim for fourteenth-century clothing The only way I can... Authenticity Re: On trim for fourteenth-century clothing Re: On trim for fourteenth-century clothing Raw Silk Maltreating Expensive Clothes Re: Authenticity Authenticity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 7:40:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Stacey Subject: Elegant Finery and other things Thanks to all for the silk and wool discussions of late. I'm a Revolutionary War re-enactor in Maryland. Our group has clothing standards (somewhere) but tries to be patient with new members as they learn about the era. We need more training and some new members are very motivated to learn which helps us all get excited again. I value this costume list as a resource and a good way to listen to other points of view. Re: the posting on Elegant Finery, my husband does his best to keep them in business every time we see them! I can't begin to tell you how much he's bought! We got 16 yards of heavy linen for 2 bucks a yard at Monmouth. He was walking on air! They deal in bolt ends, have discounts for volume and buy water damaged bolts for resale. Can you tell we like them? There are many arguments for and against strict standards for re-enactment groups (my only area of experience) and our group will continue to think about this issue as we have since our formation in the sixties. It stood out for me at an event where we were marching into town behind the combined military lines. The women with another unit were in front of our baggage line. As I looked at them and again at us I saw a distinct difference. We wore our clothes like we lived in them. Not every item was nec. perfect but there wasn't anything to jar the viewer from one century to another. It made me proud, but it also made me think about how the tourist won't distingiuish their group from ours. As we get our house in order, we should try to find ways to get the word out to others. Still we have enough on our plate just to get our gear done well. Re: corsetry, I don't like to wear bras but as I mature (read "gain weight") I need more support. I can imagine that at my age a woman might have had five children or so. (I'm 29) I think a corset should help a woman go about her work in the day. 18th cent. Clothes, whether fashionable or not, need corsetry to hang like the documented paintings, etchings, embroidery and drawings. A notable exception is a drawing of a woman identified as "Jersey Nanny" who seems to be uncorsetted or loosely bound. I'm very concerned with class distinction in clothing and am always looking for information on campfollower clothing as well. Any clues on lower class life for women in the 18th century would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Stacey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:25:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Fabric Questions/Musings > Very off the cuff: I believe there were a variety of stamping > techniques, I think some are mentioned in Elizabeth's wardrobe > unlocked, by Janet Arnold, using hot irons to impress a pattern, > usually used to burn the velvet nap off, or impress a pattern into > it. From some bookbinding research, I know that is how they also > apply metal to leather (the thin gilt layer). > It had what seemed to be a single layer of semi-faded blackish > red threads brocaded to make solid line patterns overall, but was > not quite as orange in color as the pictures. Hmmm again. I was going through footnotes on one the articles which referenced a "Court Style, Painters, and the Great Wardrobe in W.M Ormond _England in the Fourteenth Century_ by Woodbridge 1986 in reference to this term and thought, that would be a good book to have, then went home and found it on the shelf. It is from a conference and I bought it for an article on John of Gaunt and didn't look through the rest of it. The author tells of the court painters hired for three distinct pruposes, as draghtsmen, as painters and as celebration designers, "stamping" she says was a method were one could duplicate the look of cloth of gold very closely and cheaply and it was extrememly fast. Fish bones were provided in the great wardrobe account to make glue with and she thinks it was applied like onto manuscripts before the gold leaf was "stamped" on. There are instances were whole cloth is stamped and instances of celebrational clothing an fabric for tournaments and balls, etc. was done. Better and more expensive and durable than painting, which didn't do well in England's climate. > > I think I've seen the word "powdered" refer to cloth embroidered > with sprinkled designs scattered about, referring to Byzantine > fabric, but that was a modern, not period reference. Some of the > fabrics in German museums had a motif embroidered on one > fabric, then the motif transferred and appliqued on the ground > fabric. I'm getting the impression that the modern reference is a correct one, but I'll wait for now. > > >From a practical aspect, I've known people who have tried > painting/printing silk, supposedly with researched "period" > materials, but have been dissappointed with rather poor results > over the long term, but not familiar with the details. I have read > many references to painted decorative fabric (such as for > Tournaments), but those were not expected to stay pretty. Horse > sweat and weapons are nasty on fabric. I can give the ingrediants for the materials ordered in the Great Wardrobe for the painting, if they really got orpyment and used lapis lazuli for azure, I'm impressed. I learn so much from your comments, thank you, I wish I could go to Europe and England for research, someday. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 8:45:31 CDT From: laurence (four) hewes Subject: button collar I have read (I'll find the citation if asked) that the button-down collar was brought to the United States by one of the men who founded Brooks Brothers from England. The author gave no evidence to support this claim, but spoke with authority (as authors are wont to do). - -- Four Hewes, Motorola...The Other White Meat Fast Static RAM Division, Design Group Motorola/Semiconductor Products Sector, Mail Drop: K16 3501 Ed Bluestein Boulevard, Austin TX 78721 (512) 933-7979 (fax available, too) RZGW10@email.sps.mot.com Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form, in whole or in part. Copyright, Four Hewes, 1995. License to distribute this post is available to Microsoft for $1000. Posting without permission constitutes an agreement to these terms. Please send notices of violation to Postmaster@microsoft.com and to RZGW10@email.sps.mot.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:32:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: On trim for fourteenth-century clothing I have a conscience which is outside of my body and very wise, and doubtless more diplomatic than I who raised a point from a previous posting of mine I should like to claify. Gaelscot asked for more information on fabric and decorations, and specifically about trim relating the trim she often saw on paintings from the time. "Regarding my earlief post that jewels and metal decorations were used on hems: Someone (my conscience who shall remain anonymous-this is a direct quote and quite perfect) has called to my attention that in medieval visual sources, hem trims on full-length gowns are virtually always in depictions of mythical, allegorical, or religious figures, and rarely if ever shown on 'real people.' It's possible they were never used in real life, and I have found no evidence yet that they were, but I haven't been looking hard. I anyone has any solid references I'd be interested in hearing about them. Fur trimmed hems, however, are fairly easily documented for the 14th century." I feel like a front for a more brilliant and experienced mind than I am, but take the above as fact. I don't mean to come off sounding definitive or authoritative, my research constantly opens up new information for which I have to reassess old ideas. I will perhaps limit my postings only to things I can document with primary or contemporary references. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:42:45 -0400 From: SyRilla@aol.com Subject: The only way I can... Just a small note to add to the war. I am one of the cheap, lazy people. ( I know the writer never meant this to lable anyone) At the moment that is all that I can afford to be. I am a full time student with a partime job, that can only afford to buy large amount of material or cutains from the thrift stores or if a have a birthday (only once a year, booooo) and the local fabric stores have a half off sale. I have bought a few Past patterns for the Medeival and Elizibeathean costumes and use them when I can. I am not an acomplised seamstress ( that's why I'm going to school), so I can not just make up patterns. I do use the librarys extensively, they know me by name and tell me wich books are out or in. I do make my own designed costumes for other people and myself for our local Renn. faire. Even though they are not authetic, except in the basic design everyone still loves them and enjoys wearing them. I do try. I envy the people that have the resources to make "authentic" or even look alike costumes. I truly wish I could. I will some day!!!! However I do want to work in the theatrical costume, historically if possible, so thats an even diffrent type of Authentisity. Please no more wars, the white flag is out !!!! ____________ I I I I I I - --------------------- I I I I My 2 cents ! Kimberly D. Stockton SyRilla@aol.com "Who said that I dress funny?" P.S. I do enjoy this list. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:51:47 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Authenticity > the sixties. It stood out for me at an event where we were marching > into town behind the combined military lines. The women with another > unit were in front of our baggage line. As I looked at them and again > at us I saw a distinct difference. We wore our clothes like we lived > in them. I think this is probably in many ways THE most important thing if you are doing reinactment or interpretation work. Under those circumstances you are wearing clothing, not costumes, and you need to wear them like clothing (and like the people of the time you are recreating wore their clothing, which means you have to get the underpinnings right so that your posture is correct). Since total authenticity is probably impossible more than about 200 years back (if only because some of the fabrics are not available) I'd back a costume that looked, moved and "felt" real over one that used recreation fabrics, hand-stitching, etc. but was worn as a costume. > Re: corsetry, I don't like to wear bras but as I mature (read > "gain weight") I need more support. I can imagine that at my age a > woman might have had five children or so. (I'm 29) I think a corset > should help a woman go about her work in the day. 18th cent. Clothes, > whether fashionable or not, need corsetry to hang like the documented > paintings, etchings, embroidery and drawings. A notable exception is > a drawing of a woman identified as "Jersey Nanny" who seems to be > uncorsetted or loosely bound. Someplace around I have notes about poor-house rolls from the late 16 hundreds, when a pair of bodies was considered sufficiently necessary to female life that the poor house provide them if necessary. (Of course, in my youth women were occasionally fired for not wearing bras to work.) The age question (and related pregnancy/childbirth issues) brings up another interesting area of authenticity--how "old" should you dress. I am a woman of forty and six years. Based on what I can tell from portraiture, if I were to time-machine back to the Regency (my personal favorite period--flat shoes and very light coresetry at best!) I would be taken for a woman of about thirty. (And an upper or middle class one at that--a country farm wife of 30 would probably look a fair bit older). So, do I dress in the period garb correct for my age and marital status (I'm a grandmother and a dowager), do I dress as the period woman I look like (a young matron) or do I decide that since I'm still wearing jeans and turtlenecks as I did in college mundanely, I can do the same historically and dress as a girl in her first season? *******************************************************************q******** Sarah E. Goodman goodston@well.sf.ca.us goodston@netcom.com goodston@river.org Senior Designer & Chief Cat Herder, Wee Cottage, Daly City, California, USA *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:13:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Margaret Griffith Subject: Re: On trim for fourteenth-century clothing On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Teresa Shannon wrote: > > hearing about them. Fur trimmed hems, however, are fairly easily > documented for the 14th century." > I'm curious - are these actually "fur trimmed", or are they fully lined with fur and the edge of the fur shows along the bottom? Meg Penrose ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:19:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: On trim for fourteenth-century clothing > > On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Teresa Shannon wrote: > > > > > hearing about them. Fur trimmed hems, however, are fairly easily > > documented for the 14th century." > > > > I'm curious - are these actually "fur trimmed", or are they fully lined > with fur and the edge of the fur shows along the bottom? > > Meg Penrose > Both, fur trimmed and fur lined and showing as trim were common, both are specified in the Great Wardrobe accounts. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:25:02 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Raw Silk When did Raw Silk or Noil Silk fabric become available and/or fashionable? I'm talking about the stuff with a suede-like texture that comes in lots of bright colors and costs about $7.00 - $10.00 (US) per yard. It was around back when I discovered that silk was affordable and would not bite. (The early 1980's) I used raw silk for a medieval dress & later found out that it was wrong. So when is it right? -Carol Kocian ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 10:31:20 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Maltreating Expensive Clothes Catriona said this: ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Also, a minor noblewoman might have one or two gowns. If I put all my time and money into a single gown a year (and didn't buy mundane clothes) I could possibly afford to create one of these miracles of authenticity. But I can't. (Of course, I would be afraid to wear it! One lout steps on your hem while you're dancing...one beer gets spilled on your bodice...one cigarette butt is left burning on the ground...and it's just too expensive to replace.) So I use coat-lining satin, upholstery velvet and cotton. And I use a machine for everything I can get away with. - ---------------------------------------------------------------- I work in the noble's guild at the northern california renaissance faire, in a silk and velveteen gown with gold trim and beading and etc. All of this that you mention has, in fact, happened to my dress. In addition, we sweat copiously in them, play tag in them, et cetera, et cetera. There are a few things you can do to minimize wear and tear on expensive clothes: *We use cotton velveteen instead of silk velvet or rayon velvet, both of which tend to shine oddly in sunlight. (I've seen expensive, exquisite silk velvet look "fake" in bright sun, too!) *We try to choose trims that don't fray or shred or catch on things. *We are advised (by the costume director, who is also on this list and who knows far more than I) to dry clean or machine wash everything before we use it, so it will shrink if it's going to. I handwashed my shot silk before I used it, which means that I can use water to wipe up a spill. I machine washed the cotton velveteen. *We sew a flat bias tape to skirt hems, which minimizes wear (since the bias tape wears and then you replace it.) *We cartridge pleat using copious quantities of carpet thread. One person swears by sewing the top and bottom of the cartridge pleat to the waistband of her skirt (not just the top), thereby giving her a double layer of stitching. She says even her active five year old hasn't managed to rip it by stepping on it. *We're warned never to bring or wear anything that we cannot bear to lose. *While buckram would probably be a more authentic choice for a hat framework, I use steamed plastic needlepoint canvas. After it gets wet a few times, buckram tends to look "sad" and misshapen. Trust me, the faire area can get wet--especially when the helpful merchants provide fine spray nozzles that mist you as you go by, whether you will or no. *I use copious quantities of ScotchGuard to ward off stains. If something does spill on my costume, I immediately wipe up or shake off as much of it as I can get, using a damp cloth. *I don't eat things (grape juice, fruit punch, wine, tomato sauce, beets, etc.) that will stain my clothes. If someone has one of those objects in my vicinity, I try to stay about three feet from them. *For my next gown, I plan to buy extra fabric and, if possible, get it to fade at approximately the same rate. That way, if I want another hat or a new pair of sleeves or I need to remake the bodice, I have the fabric. As you can see from this list, I have made some inauthentic choices--but I'm wearing a theatre costume that has to stay looking good in a rough and tumble environment over a period of several weeks (when I am usually too exhausted to put major effort into repairing it.) Your choices may differ. Other people in St. George who read this list: What do you do along these lines? Gail DeCamp decampg@ngc.com ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 1995 10:37:52 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Authenticity Reply to: RE>Authenticity Sarah, Your following paragraph intrigued me. How do you judge the age of the sitter of a period portrait? We don't always know what age the person was. :The age question (and related pregnancy/childbirth issues) brings up :another interesting area of authenticity--how "old" should you dress. I :am a woman of forty and six years. Based on what I can tell from :portraiture, if I were to time-machine back to the Regency (my personal :favorite period--flat shoes and very light coresetry at best!) I would be :taken for a woman of about thirty. (And an upper or middle class one at :that--a country farm wife of 30 would probably look a fair bit older). :So, do I dress in the period garb correct for my age and marital status :(I'm a grandmother and a dowager), do I dress as the period woman I look :like (a young matron) or do I decide that since I'm still wearing jeans :and turtlenecks as I did in college mundanely, I can do the same :historically and dress as a girl in her first season? I too am judged by some of those around me as being younger than my chronological age. My tendency is to dress according to my appearance, but I think I'd be pushing it a bit too much if I dressed like a maiden of marriageable age. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:45:57 CDT From: TOMBGUARD Subject: Authenticity As pretty much a lurker, I have read a large amount of the arguements that have been given about authenticity and the like. I feel very strongly about it, but I also feel that I need not force my ideas on anyone else. If I go to an event/camp I insure that they meet the authenticity standards which I feel are proper, or I don't go. I think that this is important and I feel that everyone should make up there own mind how they want to attack this, however, when someone is supposedly protraying a period in history for a group and is teaching in that capacity (be it to a school or the general public) they should be held to the strictest of authenticity. These people (the ones who do not) are the ones who have given Daniel Boone the "Coon skin cap", Longhunters the buckskins and fringes, and 18th century women the "bodice". We take it upon ourselves to teach and therefore should take it upon ourselves to be accurate in that teaching. In one article it was mentioned that re-enactors/interpreters should dress as if they wore there clothes on a daily basis. This would mean not worrying about wearing the clothes, not worrying about a little spilt beer or hem stepped on, etc., as one lady mentioned. As a matter of fact, there should be some of that if one is to look authentic. It is not just the question of hand-sewing, proper patterns, proper material, etc., it is the entire picture. I don't expect everyone to be as picky as I am, I hand sew, use only handmade lace (I make my own bobbin lace so this is easy), etc. But I think that there is at least a certain standard that should be kept. More than my two cents, By the way, if anyone is interested in lace or has questions about lace, I have done a little research and have the ability to do much more if I don't have the answer handy, so feel free to write. Robert Robert H. Neidlinger NEIDLRH@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU "The Tomb Guard" Robert.Neidlinger@BGAMUG.COM "If I knew what I was getting into, I wouldn't have been born at all." ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #194 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!