From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #195 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, September 21 1995 Volume 3, Number 195 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: help with Tudor Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #193 Meschianza! Re: Authenticity oxford shirt Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #193 Re: Authenticity ermine Corsets again Re: Fabric Questions/Musings Re: Raw Silk Re: ermine Re: Raw Silk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:41:09 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: help with Tudor Hello to the list! I am about to embark on a Tudor gown. I plan to make the bodice with a small point, like the portrait of the young Elizabeth. I have just over a week to finish it. I have lots of questions, and hope you can answer them for me. 1. Has anyone used Period Patterns no. 51, View 5? Does it have any problems? (I've seen mistakes in other Period Patterns) Does it have enough fullness in the skirt and bell sleeves? Does it have any authenticity problems? 2. How much fur do I need for the cuffs? Will a coat cover it? How about a jacket if I piece the sleeves together? 3. Is there anything wrong with my having the skirts on waistbands seperate from the bodice? I always believed that the seperation had occurred by this period. 4. I have seen quite a few undersleeves fastened by points at the wrist. What should I use for the ties? How do I sew them on? Is it possible to get a tight enough wrist with this method? 5. I plan to line the skirt. Does it matter what I line it with? 6. I may not have time to make a French Hood for the emsemble. Does anyone have any suggestions for quick alternate headgear? 7. Anything else you think I should know? 8. Why does my cat eat paper? (Oops, got a bit carried away! 8-D ) I can't believe that I decided _now_ that I had to have a new gown! The fabric I have is a tapestry of russet and a dark colour that isn't quite black. I'm considering a topaz-coloured taffeta for the underskirt and sleeves. If I get really stuck, I have a cream damask underskirt and sleeves that I can use temporarily. Thanks for helping me through my insanity! Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:32:59 -0700 From: Susan Fatemi Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #193 I replied to Margritte's question about tabby before I saw it on the digest. My c1956 Websters says the word comes from Attabi (actually a contraction of al-Tabi) the quarter in Baghdad where it was made (see Carolyn's comment) It further states that it is a watered or *striped* fabric in plain or taffeta weave. See, striped fabric, striped cat! the dict. goes on to say: "v.t. tabbied, tabbying. To water by calendering; to calender; as to 'tabby' silk." Now, *satin*, supposedly comes from the name of a Chinese port (from which it was exported) next question? Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:23:29 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Meschianza! Someone wrote earlier about people in the past doing historic things, so I looked up the Meschianza. It is described in chapter 14 of John W. Jackson's book, With The British Army In Philadelphia 1777-1778. (copyright 1979, Presidio Press, San Rafael, CA. ISBN O- 89141-057-0) The Meschianza was a gala farewell party that the British officers threw when General Howe returned to England. The date was May 18, 1778. "As an extravaganza, the Meschianza had no peers in eighteenth-century America. It was finally concluded that the affair would encompass a series of events. First, a procession of decorated watercraft would move along the waterfront: then a joust or tournament of knights, followed by an elaborate banquet, dancing, and a colorful display of fireworks...." (pp.235-236) "...Seven young ladies were chosen by each company of knights for their 'youth, beauty and fashion.'" (p.241) "Andre describes the ladies' dress as being fancy. 'They wore gauze Turbans spangled and edged with gold or Silver, on the right Side a veil of the same kind hung as low as the waist and the left side of the Turban was enriched with pearl and tassels of gold or Silver & crested with a feather. The dress was of the polonaise Kind and of white Silk with long sleeves, the Sashes which were worn round the waist and were tied with a large bow on the left side hung very low and were trimmed spangled and fringed according to the Colours of the Knight.'" (p.241) "Andre included a vignette on the habiliments of the white knights: Their dress was that worn in the time of Henry the 4th of France: The Vest was of white Sattin, the upper part of the Sleeves made very full but of pink confined within a row of straps of white sattin laced with Silver upon a black edging. The Trunk Hose were exceedingly wide and of the same kind with the shoulder-part of the Sleeves. A large pink scarf fastened on the right shoulder with a white bow crossed the Breast and back and hung in an ample loose Knot with Silver fringes very low under the left hip, a pink and white Sword belt laced with black and Silver girded the waist, Pink bows with frings were fastened to the Knees, and a wide buff leather boot hung carelessly round the ankles: The Hat of white Sattin with a narrow brim and high crown, was turned up in front and enlivened by red white and black plumes, and the Hair tied with the Contrasted Colours of the dress hung in flowing curls upon the back. The Horses were caparisoned with the same Colours, with trimmings and bows hanging very low from either ham and tied round their Chest. The Esquires of which the chief Knights had two and the other Knights one were in a pink Spanish dress with white mantles and sashes: they wore high crowned pink hats with a white and a black feather and carried the lance and Shield of their Knight. The lance was fluted pink and white with a little banner of the same Colours, and the Shield was silvered and painted with the Knights device. (p.242) The Andre quoted by Jackson is Captain John Andre. Jackson wrote, "Unquestionably, Andre was a member of this band, but not the sole architect of the program. His devotion to Howe and hie known artistic talents made him a logical participant in the fete's production." (p.235) The book goes on to describe the flotilla, the dinner and dance, buildings that were constructed and painted just for the event, etc. It would be a fun event to reenact! -Carol Kocian ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:06:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Authenticity > sitter of a period portrait? We don't always know what age the person > was. No, but it can be figured out from date of picture and date of birth occasionally, and Regency is relatively "modern" so you can sometimes research it (since many of the people painted were famous or related to famous or wealthy enough to be considered famous. Also, you can make a good guess in some family portraits based on number and age of kids, if you know roughly what ages women married at. I got interested enough to do a bit of research (before then I'd been just dressing as I "looked" without thinking about it much) after seeing a ancient looking refugee woman on TV (Kurd, I think, but it could have been some other current dreadfulness) and realizing (based on some information provided about her family situation) that she was probably several years younger than I. > I too am judged by some of those around me as being younger than > my chronological age. My tendency is to dress according to my appearance, > but I think I'd be pushing it a bit too much if I dressed like a maiden > of marriageable age. Oh, I really look 46, as 46 now looks (although I don't look like a grandmother, since we are still all buying an outmoded concept there), but not as it looked before current levels of decent food, decent water, decent immunications, decent cosmentics and (probably most important) decent birth control and infant mortality rates. I do generally dress my appearance rather than true age--more so now than when I looked the maiden and sometimes set myself up as older. But then, I've generally though that it was more interesting to do "character" parts than play engenue anyway and in most times and places one could have MUCH more fun as an mature woman; for a time I did myself as 5 years older trying to look my actual age. The hard part was convincing my self that if I'm interpreting a woman of 35 then it's not lying to claim that age, in persona! (I have haven't lied about my age since before I was legal, and then it was in the other direction.) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Sep 95 04:06:00 From: "Gina Balestracci" Subject: oxford shirt This is totally undocumented because I'm at work right now, but I seem to recall the derivation of the button-down collar being a fad for University clothes from England. There were Oxford styles and Cambridge styles and the Cambridge styles fell out of favor at some time. I believe there were 2 other universities (or maybe public schools--Eton perhaps? and maybe another?--Caroline, help! I know about Eton collars), but can't remember the specifics The article of clothing that went with the button-down collar was very baggy white flannel trousers--I guess of the Cricket variety. I think the time period in discussion is the 1920s or so--post WWI, Jeeves & Wooster. At some point the fad crossed the pond. What we're left with from that fad are Oxford shirts (the fabric from which they're made is also called Oxford cloth). I *know* I've read this somewhere. Perhaps a look in the OED (Oxford cloth) would shed some light? gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:20:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #193 > > I replied to Margritte's question about tabby before I saw it on the digest. > > My c1956 Websters says the word comes from Attabi (actually a contraction of > al-Tabi) the quarter in Baghdad where it was made (see Carolyn's comment) > It further states that it is a watered or *striped* fabric in plain or taffeta > weave. See, striped fabric, striped cat! > > the dict. goes on to say: "v.t. tabbied, tabbying. To water by calendering; > to calender; as to 'tabby' silk." > This is funny. In the book _French Textiles: From the Middle Ages through the Second Empire_ ed. Marianne Carlano and Larry Salman (Hartford, CT: Wadsworth Atheneum, 1985) Glossary on p. 179 Definition for Taffeta: A fine, tightly woven silk fabric of Tabby weave Tabby being defined as: The basic binding system for the simplest weavings. Also known as plain cloth, cloth weave. In the Great Wardrobe the cloth attaby is quite distinct from taffeta. So I am inclined to thing the tabby reference to a binding weave is the is technical term of which many cloths employ it, and attaby is the name of a distinct fabric known to come from the above mentioned quarter, and that taffeta is a fabric sewn by everybody that is composed of the tabby binding weave. References given for the above terms from the book were: Burnham, Dorothy. _Warp and Weft_ (Toronto: Royal Ontario Museum, 1980) Emery, Irene. _The Primary Structures of Fabrics._ (Washington, D.C.: The Textile Museum, 1966) _Vocabulary of Technical Terms_ (english edition) Lyons: Centre International d'Etude des Textiles Anciens, 1964. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:14:17 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Authenticity Sarah Goodman wrote: >The age question (and related pregnancy/childbirth issues) brings up >another interesting area of authenticity--how "old" should you dress. I >am a woman of forty and six years. Based on what I can tell from >portraiture, if I were to time-machine back to the Regency (my personal >favorite period--flat shoes and very light coresetry at best!) I would be >taken for a woman of about thirty. (And an upper or middle class one at >that--a country farm wife of 30 would probably look a fair bit older). >So, do I dress in the period garb correct for my age and marital status >(I'm a grandmother and a dowager), do I dress as the period woman I look >like (a young matron) or do I decide that since I'm still wearing jeans >and turtlenecks as I did in college mundanely, I can do the same >historically and dress as a girl in her first season? > I'm really good at justification, and I figure that when in costume, we are clothing a persona. My persona is younger than I am. Let's face it, if it were really me in the 16th century I would be toothless (no dental work available back then) and blind (I had a couple of retina operations). :) Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:14:40 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: ermine Does anyone know what real ermine feels like? I picked up an ermine-looking fur piece (two little guys attached to each other with a clip in the mouth...you know the type) and I'll wear it whether it's real ermine or rabbit in ermine shape and colour. But I'd still like to know. Ermine is a winter coat for an animal...which one? Mink? Weasel? Stoat? Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:16:00 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Corsets again >Susan wrote: >>Re: that last posting from Dennis on proper corsets, posture and back >>problems, >>reminded me that one of the places that does provide custom-made corsets are >>medical supply houses! (for people with back problems)...Also, very >>large-busted women often have severe back and shoulder problems. > >You are absolutely right. A custom made corset is much preferred over a >"ready made" one. Historically, most women bought their corsets ready >made. There are pages and pages of Victorian catalogues showing different >styles of corsets availble via mail order. There were corsets custome >made, but the documentation I have read thus far indicates this was along >the lines of women who also bought couture. > >I manufacture ready made corsets in 5 sizes, in several different >styles/periods. Whenever possible, they are custom fit the corset to the >wearer but that is a matter of geography. If they are close enough to come >to me for fittings, then they get a custom corset. If not, I am available >to discuss color, style and size with the buyer but not much more >customization is possible without a body to fit. > >When I taught "corset construction" at Costume College earlier this year, >those who signed up got custom made patterns from me for corsets. I >discussed use, period, style and any medical/aesthetic needs of the wearer >before the patterns were drafted. I have heard back from many of my >students who have made corsets from the patterns and they are all very >happy with the results. A well made corset is a pleasure to wear, a custom >fit one is a dream! > >I would like to hear from anyone who has made athletic corsets (i.e. >equestrian, bicycling, bathing, etc.) and how they have done with >them...... > >Erin Moody >U.C. Berkeley > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:22:59 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Fabric Questions/Musings On interesting fabric treatments: a friend of mine went to the V&A to study in the back rooms and brought back many interesting photos. One was of a rather fragmentary doublet of a peachy color, very pale, with embossed daisies on the gards and epaulets. I have read references on using a stamped-on dye resist to produce patterned cloth on the continent, but I can't put my fingers on it right now (once more into the stacks, dear friends). Cennini, in his Il Libro del Arte from the early 15th C. talks about painting fabrics with _inks_ to obtain very subtle and shaded results, and to paint velvet from behind, so that the design appears to be woven in. (His book is available from Dover - you'd be amazed how much is in there that you've been wondering about) "Queen Elisabeths Closet" has a lovely example of painted satin appliqued onto velvet of very natural birds. Just a few more thoughts to inflame our creative faculties. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:50:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Raw Silk > When did Raw Silk or Noil Silk fabric become available and/or > fashionable? I'm talking about the stuff with a suede-like texture > that comes in lots of bright colors and costs about $7.00 - $10.00 > (US) per yard. > > It was around back when I discovered that silk was affordable and > would not bite. (The early 1980's) I used raw silk for a medieval > dress & later found out that it was wrong. So when is it right? > Silk manufacture in Europe is a tricky business. I am taking a leap when I say the silk that was traded from India, China and the mideast that went into Europe probably never had silk noil in it. This was a luxury trade and generally top quality stuff was what was traded. This does not mean low grade silk was not produced and woven in these countries. I have an article called Seed to Samite: Byzantine Silk Production that discusses a book written in the middle ages on the silk production in the country and mentions those who degummed and wound the fibers from the broken silk cocoons where modern silk noil is also woven from. Byzantium did not trade this quality of silk, it mentions explicitly a level of quality in silk given as gifts to foreigners and diplomats and kings. However the burgeoning silk industry in the fourteenth century in Italy and southern France and Paris which did almost entirely small domestic items, way also have produced low-quality silk of this variety. Still, they would have probably tried to make the result as smooth as possible by putting as little twist into the threads as possible. At least that is my understanding. Anyway, silk noil as we have it woven is very unlikely to have been available, but cheap, flimsy, thin uninteresting, non-shiny silk in a variety of colors, but never scarlet or purple probably would have been available to countries with domestic silk industries, 14thc. Spain, Italy, France, Middle East, and in the 16th century even England. Cheap silk is still generally more impressive than linen and wool and would have had some underground market or for merchants who couldn't afford the good stuff yet. If one is not reenacting nobility I see no reason why it couldn't be used, the silk noil, that is, or for working clothes for the nobility that occaisionally liked to slum with working hobbies. Unfortunately even though there is a wide range of silk pieces left over, this type of silk has a low chance of surviving for archaeology. My opinions are in this article, don't take everything for fact. Your servant, Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:25:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: ermine > Does anyone know what real ermine feels like? > > I picked up an ermine-looking fur piece (two little guys attached to > each other with a clip in the mouth...you know the type) and I'll wear it > whether it's real ermine or rabbit in ermine shape and colour. But I'd > still like to know. Ermine is a winter coat for an animal...which one? > Mink? Weasel? Stoat? > > Kathleen (Catriona) > I know what North American ermine feels like, sews like and plays like. Some people look very askance, but I buy them as cat toys. My cats love to throw the little gutted things around. I discovered this when edging a surcote in ermine and with ermine tails and my cat always tried chewing the tails and stealing them from my sewing box. So every few years I buy some more ermines from a trader and give to the cats. Ermines are members of the weasel family, distinct from minks and weasels proper. Ermines have summer-brown and winter-coats and their prices have sky-rocketed because of the German craze with reenacting American Wild West. Most of the illegal eagle feather trade goes straight to Germany. When Dances With Wolves came out by Costner showing the indian tribe with the whole ermines lining the outfits the trade overseas went wild for the little bodies. I used to get them for 2.50 each, now 7-12.00 a piece. The european ermine is probably rare or extinct form over-hunting and no wild areas to breed in. They were imported into England in the fourteenth century. Teresa P.S. If you want something that will take the most wear, do mink. It is the only skin that you can consistantly rub the wrong way without damaging the fur. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 14:26:47 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: Raw Silk I _believe_ I remember seeing a 14th cent. silk "noil"-looking middle eastern shirt (undershirt), but that would still fit in with your comments, and it would still be very soft and comfortable against the skin. I can't remember if this was in one of my various middle eastern sources or if I saw this in an exhibit...or maybe even in "Cut my Coat"? We do allow a few silk noil dresses in our German Ren. group, (though wool is preferred and encouraged), but we are playing camp followers, not nobles, and the slubby texture gives a nice "lived in" look while being very lightweight in very hot southern California weather. -- julie adams ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #195 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!