From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #198 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, September 22 1995 Volume 3, Number 198 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: RE: Authenticity Renaissance Ribbons Re: Civil War Officer's Overcoat Pattern? Re: Comments and a Report Re: Comments and a Report I claim ignorance: Authenticity printed fabric Re: Comments and a Report Re: Comments and a Report Re: Comments and a Report Re: boning an elizabethan corset Re: help with Tudor Re: Comments and a Report Waistbands, 'support', & plaid flannel Highland Plaids Re: Authenticity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:59:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: RE: Authenticity On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Kathleen Leggat wrote: > Speaking of Elizabeth...(she's back on the authenticity kick > again!)...even the Queen used fake pearls on her gowns. I think that's from > The Queen's Wardrobe Unlock'd. So...if faking it is period, then my faking > it is in an Elizabethan vein and therefore authentic... (I told you I was > good at justifying!) Of course, there is always danger in generalizing from royalty. I note that some 14th century French goldsmith's regulations ("Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince" Stella Mary Newton) specify that certain types of imitation gems may _only_ be used on clothing for the royal family. It's interesting to speculate why. My only guess so far is that the royal familiy being expected to set an extravagent example had the greatest _need_ for some sort of economy. (On the other hand, there's always the caveat that people didn't tend to pass laws against something that no one was doing, so maybe that's evidence that _everyone_ was using that particular type of imitation gem.) Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:54:29 -0600 (CST) From: BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Subject: Renaissance Ribbons Could someone please give me the address for Rennaissance Ribbons, I had it, but have misplaced it now. thank you in advance, brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:12:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Gwyndlyn J Ferguson Subject: Re: Civil War Officer's Overcoat Pattern? On Fri, 22 Sep 1995 ejp@watson.ibm.com wrote: > Now I need your assistance. I'd like to make a garment-quality topcoat > for my one and only, and he's very interested in the styling of Civil > War officer's coats. We looked over an old Campbell's catalog, and > found some awful little drawings of what may, in fact, be very nice > coat and overcoat patterns in the Period Impressions section. One was > labeled "Officer's Frock Coat", another was clearly a caped topcoat > described as "Perfect for those winter campaigns". This caped CW coat > might be just the ticket. Then again, suppose the quality of the > pattern is comparable to the quality of the drawing? Aha! I'm not the only one who's sweetie wants an historically inspired winter coat this year! Of course, we _both_ do... I have been looking at the same two awful little drawings and wondering the same things. My plans are to slightly alter the "officer's frock coat" for myself, and my husband wants the caped overcoat. Anyone with experience with these patterns? *Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University *Internet: mugjf@bgu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:37:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Comments and a Report On 22 Sep 1995, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > First, my modest (!) comments on current postings! > > Teeth - the state of your teeth, even today with modern dentistry (I speak > as a dentists daughter!) is mainly dependent on the level of sugar in the > diet, with the amount of roughage in the diet as the second factor > (genetics is also important, but debateable). Archaeological findings have > shown that medieval people had very good teeth, strong and with a low level > of caries. Their diet was very low in sugar and much of the diet was full > of roughage, lots of unbolted flour and vegetables! On rare occasions, genetics can play a factor. I, for instance, have incomplete enamel (i.e. it doesn't cover the center of the molars) which appears to be genetic based on its appearance elsewhere in my family. But I'll agree that diet is generally a far more important factor. I will also note that tooth-cleaning is not a modern invention. In the late 12th century, Giraldus Cambrensis noted of the Welsh that they are "constantly cleaning [their teeth] with green hazel-shoots and then rubbing them with woollen cloths until they shine like ivory". Heather Rose Jones (always happy to present evidence that the medieval Welsh had a highly-evolved culture) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:23:57 -0500 (EST) From: Betsy Perry Subject: Re: Comments and a Report I have a minor nit to pick on an otherwise excellent posting. > Marriage > > Average age in England through medieval and early modern England was 25 for > women and 27 for men. Even where people were married younger (eg > aristocracy) it does not imply a full marriage. They might be brought up > by their respective families or by the grooms family but would be kept > apart. They were well aware of the dangers of a girl having a baby too > soon, and had a different attitude to romantic love to our own. I often > wonder whether the first audience of 'Romeo and Juliet' saw it as > 'romantic', I am sure they would not approve of a 13 year old girl getting > married without her parents approval. Juliet's mother is the age they > would expect a woman to get married at! This doesn't accord with the evidence in the play. Juliet's mother is pushing for Juliet's marriage, with the comment "I was already a mother much on these years that you are still a maid." That is, Juliet's mother married and bore Juliet _before_ Juliet's own tender age. (Juliet's father cuts in with a snide comment about what a mistake _that_ was.) So that although Juliet may be young to marry (and marriage without parental consent is always wrong), she isn't so young as to cause unusual comment within the Verona Shakespeare is portraying. Note that Juliet is an odd special case in that she's an heiress, and her parents are naturally anxious to marry her off to somebody appropriate so that they can be sure of grandchildren. I am not disagreeing with Mrs. Yeldham about the general age of marriage, just about marriage age as discussed in ROMEO AND JULIET. Betsy Perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:31:23 CDT From: TOMBGUARD Subject: I claim ignorance: Authenticity So, I have a problem, and that is that I have a tendency to study the areas that interest me and to all periods. I have studied much about the lace making industry and much about the 18th Century, so when I interject please remind me that I don't know everything about everytime and everywhere. Thanks, Robert Robert H. Neidlinger NEIDLRH@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU "The Tomb Guard" Robert.Neidlinger@BGAMUG.COM "If I knew what I was getting into, I wouldn't have been born at all." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:05:11 -0700 From: kondoa@ucs.orst.edu Subject: printed fabric The earliest printed fabrics I've seen were Chinses, from the HAn Dynasty (ended about 220AD). THey were thin silks with either screenprinted or stencilled designs on them, in multiple colours. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 12:14:00 PDT From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: Comments and a Report Thanks, Caroline for the really interesting posting! Let's hope Janet Arnold was right about her book on shirts and smocks coming out soon--in a real rather than cosmic sense! I would like to make one point about your following comment: >Average age in England through medieval and early modern England was 25 for >women and 27 for men. Don't forget to take into account that "average age" includes the large percentage of the population who died before the age of 2. I don't recall the percentages of the population in "historic" periods who died that young, and it would have varied by date and location, but as an example, if you have a population of 100, if 25 die at or near birth, 10 die at age 1, and 15 die at age 2, even if the entire remaining population lives to be 50, the average age for that group will be somewhere around 25. And yes, I realize that childbirth and its complications was responsible for the higher mortality rates among women! This just goes, though, to confirm the saying about statistics! - - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:31:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Comments and a Report > This doesn't accord with the evidence in the play. Juliet's mother is > pushing for Juliet's marriage, with the comment "I was already a > mother much on these years that you are still a maid." That is, > Juliet's mother married and bore Juliet _before_ Juliet's own tender > age. (Juliet's father cuts in with a snide comment about what a > mistake _that_ was.) So that although Juliet may be young to marry > (and marriage without parental consent is always wrong), she isn't so > young as to cause unusual comment within the Verona Shakespeare is > portraying. Always dangrous to comment out of your league, but, in Augustine's time say 4-6th c. A.D. it was not uncommon for women in Italy and northern Africa to marry by 10 years old, with their own consent, not a parents. Augustine was betrothed to someone who eventurally gave her consent at 10 (he didn't get married, but had a conversion from manicheanism to christianity). I would venture the past historical evidence that cultures in warm weather climates especially in this case mediterranean, married and had children significantly younger, because, and this is proven, they matured earlier based on diet and climate.> Consequently the whole question of what is mature, and marriage, child-birth were shifted down the chronological time line for Italy. I think the comment in Shakespeare is appropriate as he plagiarized Romeo and Juliet from other sources and kept in the "exotic elements" that would thrill the english audience. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:34:02 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Comments and a Report Betsy Perry wrote: >I have a minor nit to pick on an otherwise excellent posting. > >> Marriage >> >> Average age in England through medieval and early modern England was 25 for >> women and 27 for men. Even where people were married younger (eg >> aristocracy) it does not imply a full marriage. They might be brought up >> by their respective families or by the grooms family but would be kept >> apart. They were well aware of the dangers of a girl having a baby too >> soon, and had a different attitude to romantic love to our own. I often >> wonder whether the first audience of 'Romeo and Juliet' saw it as >> 'romantic', I am sure they would not approve of a 13 year old girl getting >> married without her parents approval. Juliet's mother is the age they >> would expect a woman to get married at! > >This doesn't accord with the evidence in the play. Juliet's mother is >pushing for Juliet's marriage, with the comment "I was already a >mother much on these years that you are still a maid." That is, >Juliet's mother married and bore Juliet _before_ Juliet's own tender >age. (Juliet's father cuts in with a snide comment about what a >mistake _that_ was.) So that although Juliet may be young to marry >(and marriage without parental consent is always wrong), she isn't so >young as to cause unusual comment within the Verona Shakespeare is >portraying. > >Note that Juliet is an odd special case in that she's an heiress, and >her parents are naturally anxious to marry her off to somebody >appropriate so that they can be sure of grandchildren. > >I am not disagreeing with Mrs. Yeldham about the general age of >marriage, just about marriage age as discussed in ROMEO AND JULIET. > >Betsy Perry > > Actually, my Shakespeare prof agrees with Mrs. Yeldham. He says that the English audience would have found the marriage age of Romeo and Juliet to be very exotic and foreign. (Remember, it is set in Italy) He also said that due to different nutrician, women would have reached reproductive maturity at a later age. I believe he was referring to the "masses", not the nobility. I suggest that may be different in Italy of the period, with a longer growing season. Another reason for later marriages was the prohibitive cost of establishing a household. Here's a related question. I know that there was a great deal of extra-marital relations in 16th century Britain. How about pre-marital sexual relations? Is there any evidence of that, or did the fear of pregnancy keep women chaste into their twenties? Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:47:33 -0700 From: denikai@ix.netcom.com (Marie Denikas ) Subject: Re: boning an elizabethan corset After having made a few Elizabethan corsets, I would be glad to share the knowledge. I always bone in a fan in front, and angle the bones under the arms a little front to back. The back is straight. The reason is simple physics. Consider how the stress is going to pull on a snugly fitted bodice to determine the boning pattern. I am not EVEN going to try to do the diagram in ASCII for this message! But, contact me offline and I will try to make a graphic file of some kind. I use steel lumber strapping for my boning. It is about 3/4" wide, flat, and pretty much free. Since it is steel, it will rust. Washing it is right out. Sweat will also make it rust, after a while. I painted my bones with Rust-o-leum and coated the ends in a rubber solution called Tool Dip to pad them. Duct tape works too, but isn't as elegant as a long term solution. Plastic in any form can be bad, as it will bend and pinch with wear. Instead of washing the corset, I end up recovering it on a regular basis. The covering takes some pretty heavy abuse anyway, so this works out just fine. Marie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:53:55 -0700 From: denikai@ix.netcom.com (Marie Denikas ) Subject: Re: help with Tudor Hmmm. So many questions. The ones I can help you with come from the perspective of wearing the costume for a long time and taking care of it too. The skirt and bodice were separate, so you can make them that way. Helps with fitting, too. Line the skirt with a medium-weight cotton (prewashed). It will help the hang, and absorb sweat if necessary. It is also pretty cheap. Note - try to get a neutral or matching shade. Linings to get seen, and you don't want dye to bleed into your good fabric. I always use grosgrain ribbon for point ties. The little ridges help it stayed tied. Those little satin ribbon rolls which sell 3/$1.00 seem like a good deal, but don't hold up well to heavy use and don't stay tied. I hesitate to use taffeta for anything large - since it is a very weak fabric. It also doesn't have much resistance to surface wear. I Have seen some beautiful costumes ruined by a loose nail, and worn completely through under the arms in a single summer. My husband HAD to have his latest costume out of irridescent taffeta. I ended up using fusable interfacing under each piece, and it is still shabby in wear point. He learned the hard way what he wouldn't believe from me. Good luck! Marie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:01:53 -0500 From: dssweet@Okway.okstate.edu (Deborah Sweet) Subject: Re: Comments and a Report >Kathleen (Catriona) asks: > Here's a related question. I know that there was a great deal of >extra-marital relations in 16th century Britain. How about pre-marital >sexual relations? Is there any evidence of that, or did the fear of >pregnancy keep women chaste into their twenties? While not knowing a whole lot about this subject, I did stumble across a book at the library here that concerns this subject: Wanton Wenches & Wayward Wives: Peasants and Illicit Sex in Early Seventeenth Century England. G.R. Quaife. New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers University Press, 1979. What I mostly remember from this book are these facts. 1) Most illicit sexual behavior involved a standing or semi-reclining position. It was *not* in the bedroom or in a bed. 2) If the woman and man were both unmarried and a pregnancy occurred, they usually got married. 3) If the pregnancy was unwanted, frequently friends of the man or the man himself would physically assault the woman, *specifically* in order to cause a miscarriage. Anyway, that's what I remember from it. Debby Sweet (SCA: Estrill Swet) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:42:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Victoria Gilliam Subject: Waistbands, 'support', & plaid flannel I've got a couple of questions for the experts of this list. ;} [Based on early 1300 Scottish highlands, pls answer the following 2 questions. (Gee...sounds like an essay test...)] 1) For a skirt...would a seperate waistband (with the rest of the skirt pleated to it) or just a cased tie (as part of the skirt turned over) be more period/authentic? 2) What kind of 'support' would a early 14th century Scottish Highlands woman wear? I know that corsets are later period...I'm large busted & my husband would prefer I wear some sort of support/additional cover (although I didn't last event (yep, I'm in the SCA) & he didn't say anything). 3) I have some plaid flannel I bought about 6-7 years ago in New Jersey (I'm in Florida now)---I want to try to find more of the same pattern/color & this season's colors are not right (I need red/black/blue/green -- really Scottish looking). Does anyone know if fabric companies will bring back patterns when the colors come back? Has anyone seen the colors in plaid flannel recently? I think I'd be willing to pay for a full bolt + shipping if it can be found... Thanx! Ellsbeth Lachlanina MacLabhruinn Vycke' - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | http://www.aksi.net/unicorn | Sangre del Sol, Trimaris | | Brain fried -- core dumped. | Future Knight & Laurel..... | - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vycke' Gilliam z009341b@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:11:00 -0600 (CST) From: BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Subject: Highland Plaids You may want to check out: Tartan Imports of Florida 1507 Main St. Dunedin, Florida 813-736-2006 I have no financial interest or otherwise in this company. I know it was in business in 1988, but do not have any recent history on its health. Your most humble and obedient servant, brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 15:19:59 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Authenticity Robert wrote: :Okay so the Aristocrats and Royalty (depending upon the time period) :would look better and dress better, however I have to disagree with :the thought that they would just buy an new garment or put a new one :on. Speaking from the point of view of a lace maker/merchant of the :time, no person in their right mind would take clothing that non :chalantly. There were nobles who sold large portions of their estate :for lace yardage that was required to be worn if they were to show :their status in society. You didn't just throw that away and buy new. :So I believe, and I would have trouble documenting this, that a :garment and the lace on it would be worn until it was just not :possible to wear. I believe that this is correct, since even Queen Elizabeth (and even more so, Henrietta Maria) would rework garments. If something were ruined, they would probably remove whatever was not ruined and put it on something else, or remove as much as possible of what was ruined and replace it. We know that they did this especially for borders called guards. But the point still remains, that she would put on her best available gown before going to court, or hold off on going to court until her dress could be cleaned, repaired or replaced. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #198 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!