From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #199 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, September 22 1995 Volume 3, Number 199 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Progression Re: Comments and a Report Re: Fabric Questions/Musings Re: Comments and a Report Re: origin of "tabby" Re: French hood Marriage Ages Dealing with the Consequences RE: Authenticity FWD>University Humor Re: Dealing with the Consequences Re: Comments and a Report Re: Italian Boning Re: Renaissance Ribbons When Mores Were Less ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Progression > The expense of being a 16thC courtier is directly attached to the expense > of maintaining the wardrobe (and other expenses), and is well documented > for that period. In fact, many nobles during Elizabeth's reign tried to > stay away from court and out of her eye in order to save their money and > maintain their estates in the country. Elizabeth in turn, took her entire > entourage "On Progress" to the country and descended upon the nobles who > had stayed away from court and made them feed and house her household > during their stay. This also had the useful effect of using up various noble's money and keeping them from spending it on other things, like rebellions (although Liza only did this in a minor way--it's the French who turned it into a fine art!). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:22:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Tracy Miller Subject: Re: Comments and a Report On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Deborah Sweet wrote: > 3) If the pregnancy was unwanted, frequently friends of the man or the > man himself would physically assault the woman, *specifically* in order > to cause a miscarriage. > Hi, everyone! (I'm going to de-lurk for a moment then crawl back into my cave.) If memory serves me well, abortion was known for a long time before the the 17th c. This seems a little extreme even if abortion was too expensive. It seems more likely that the woman would just attempt it herself using fairly common plants (unless she wanted the baby for some reason). Posilby fear of poisoning herself would keep her from trying it, but given the morals of the time, she might just be desparate enough. Just a thought... Tracy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 15:39:53 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Fabric Questions/Musings :The earliest examples I know of actual printing on cloth are from the :late 16th Century, but these prints were intended as patterns to be :embroidered over, not worn as is. In _A History of Printed Textiles_ by Stuart Robinson (MIT Press, 1969) he says that the first known example in Europe (since Asia and Polynesia were way ahead in the fabric printing business) was in the 6th century in the tomb of st. Caesarius of ARles (502-43) in France. Most of the early stuff seems to have been either imported or in use for ecclesiastic stuff. More information shows up in Italy in the 13th century in the monasteries. In the 15th century there are documents discussing copying of flowers and animals from the magnificent imported brocades in gold paint, but these were not of a quality for clothing. They were used for churches, monasteries and middle class houses. Evidently they weren't colorfast enough to use in clothing. Although I can't find the reference at hand, colorfastness in printed textiles improved enough by the 16th century that were mostly used by middle class people who couldn't afford brocades but wanted to look like they did (sort of like a lot of us). They show up in England for clothing use late. It looks, from the reading I've done, that one reason why printing didn't advance as quickly as one would think it could is that the guilds were lobbying for laws preventing its use and study. If you wanted to print textiles, you were part of the painters or of the goldsmiths guilds. The weavers guilds may not have let you have fabric to do your printing on. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 95 16:11:08 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Comments and a Report Kathleen (Catriona) wrote: : Actually, my Shakespeare prof agrees with Mrs. Yeldham. He says :that the English audience would have found the marriage age of Romeo and :Juliet to be very exotic and foreign. (Remember, it is set in Italy) : : He also said that due to different nutrician, women would have :reached reproductive maturity at a later age. I believe he was referring to :the "masses", not the nobility. : : I suggest that may be different in Italy of the period, with a :longer growing season. If you look at the works by such people as Christiane Klapisch-Zuber and David Herlihy about Italy in the 15th century (_Tuscans and their Families_ and _Women, Family, and Ritual in Renaissance Italy_), it sounds very much like the average age for women was about 17-18, with less than 2% marrying prior to 14 years of age and the median age about the same as the average age of 17-18. For men it was much later (about 25). About 48.5% of all men were married by 25, only 75% by 33. (Fascinating book, but be ready for lots of facts and figures.) Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 19:54:22 -0400 From: MerrimacGA@aol.com Subject: Re: origin of "tabby" To Margritte: I never thought this book of mine would come in handy for this. According to The Cat Lover's Yearbook by Joan Moore, published by Smithmark in 1993: "The name 'tabby', used to describe the markings of a striped or brindled cat, comes from the name of the Attibiah district of Baghdad. Jews living there once made a high-quality silk with black and white watery pattern. Exported to Britain, the fabric became known as 'tabbi' silk." I wonder, is this the same story you heard before? Anyway, glad to help. Mary Macdonald ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 19:54:24 -0400 From: MerrimacGA@aol.com Subject: Re: French hood To Kathleen Leggat: In 1987, I made a Rennaissance gown and some time after that (but I forget how long) I made a French hood to go with it. What I used was a wedding veil hood which I bought at a local Hancock's Fabrics. The construction consisted of a heavy wire framework with the hood part filled with stiff net material. I simply covered this over with some of the remaining dress fabric (both sides, with handstitching), attached some brocade and pearl trims I had left over, and applied a veil to it. It worked really well. As I recall, it wasn't expensive and I should imagine any of a number of places should still carry it. If a local fabric store doesn't carry it, try some local bridal shops and see if they will sell you one. Mary Macdonald ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 17:35:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Marriage Ages I knew an anthro background would be useful for something sometime! The appropriate age for marriage varies greatly depending on when and where (and who--it's not uncommon for for the norm to be men of 35 wedding girls of 18). You have to go research your specific period and place, as well as anything that might be ideocyncratic about the character (religion, inheritance, other obligations, etc.). > He also said that due to different nutrician, women would have > reached reproductive maturity at a later age. I believe he was referring to > the "masses", not the nobility. A statistic that has always stuck in my mind, although it's come completely unhinged from it's supporting references, is that the average age at which a Swedish woman began menstruation changed from 18 to 12 between 1860 and 1960. As I remember this as attributed primarily to protein in the diet of girls. I'm not sure to what extent the day to day diet of the masses differed (especially when it came to the feeding of children and more especially of girl-children) from that of the upper classes, at various points in the past, but I'd be willing to bet almost no-one ate the percentage of protein common in modern western cultures on a daily basis. > Another reason for later marriages was the prohibitive cost of > establishing a household. Hence the occasional instutionalization of women marrying men 15 or so years their senior--HE has had time to become established and she is the right age to breed. I do know that, in rural Ireland of 150 years ago or so, it was expected that a man own his farm before he married, which often meant he waited until the old man died. > Here's a related question. I know that there was a great deal of > extra-marital relations in 16th century Britain. How about pre-marital > sexual relations? Is there any evidence of that, or did the fear of > pregnancy keep women chaste into their twenties? Well, there were cautionary ballads about the bad things that happened to girls who didn't, and one assumes (as Heather pointed out vis a vi sumptuary laws) that people don't try to stop behavior unless it's going on! However, I don't know that there is any way you could get evidence, since it wasn't the kind of thing people (or at least ladies) admitted to. My guess, based solely on my memories of what the women a half a generation before me (and pre-"pill") have told me, would be that some did and some didn't, and those that did worried a lot about it. It might be interesting to do a run on parish records to see how many women who had stopped bearing children suddenly had a baby at just about the point where their daughters could be assumed to have start their menses. Also, in my youth there were certainly a lot of reasonably large prematurely born children concienved on their parent's wedding nights! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:00:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Dealing with the Consequences > If memory serves me well, abortion was known for a long time before the the > 17th c. This seems a little extreme even if abortion was too expensive. It > seems more likely that the woman would just attempt it herself using fairly > common plants (unless she wanted the baby for some reason). Posilby fear of > poisoning herself would keep her from trying it, but given the morals of the > time, she might just be desparate enough. Just a thought... 'Why pu's though the rose, Janet, Amang the groves sae green, And a' to kill the bonny babe That we gat us between?" I think in most versions it's yarrow, but I could be wrong. I just happen to have a novelization of Tam Lin with me and the above is the only version of the song she quotes. Yes, methods of abortion were known, chemical (usually herbal) and surgical, then (and for several thousand years before). They are specifically listed (and forbidden by) the Hypocratic Oath. Midwives also had their potions and brewes. (And given the concepts of antiseptsis at the time I'd MUCH rather trust a midwife on this one.) How well they worked and how safe they were is another story. (The one method I remember rumors of from my youth involved massive doses of laxatives and purgatives, along with several hours of sit-ups and running up and down stairs. Yech! There is a reason I fight to keep abortion legal!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:45:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: RE: Authenticity > I think it would have been difficult to own more gowns than > Elizabeth Well, I have more gowns (or at least outfits) than she did (AND a nicer bathroom) but within period I agree. > Speaking of Elizabeth...(she's back on the authenticity kick > again!)...even the Queen used fake pearls on her gowns. I think that's from > The Queen's Wardrobe Unlock'd. So...if faking it is period, then my faking > it is in an Elizabethan vein and therefore authentic... (I told you I was > good at justifying!) Well, one would assume that you are talking about using Authentically Reporduced Elizabethan Fake Pearls and not just any old modern fake pearl. ;-) (Which brings up the interesting question of does anyone know how they made "pearls" and other simulated jewels (which I'm sure were used in clothing if not as jewelery)? Until I thought about it I would have assumed that the art of making paste gems is pretty old, but one reflection, I'm not sure when the use of silvering on the back of glass came in--resumedly before that one used faceted glass but it didn't have the "fire" of good rhinestones.) ------------------------------ Date: 22 Sep 1995 18:53:10 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: FWD>University Humor Mail*Link(r) SMTP FWD>University Humor Okay, I know the following isn't exactly what costumers discuss, but I like the bit about the sword. Carole Newson-Smith SCAL Cordelia Toser - -------------------------------------- Date: 9/22/95 5:58 PM From: Cvirtue@eworld.com Sometimes very interesting things come out of Carolingia. This one appeared recently. - -------------------------------- The story goes that one day during an examination at Cambridge University, a bright young student popped up and asked the proctor to bring him Cakes and Ale. The following dialog ensued: Proctor: I beg your pardon? Student: Sir, I request that you bring me Cakes and Ale. Proctor: Sorry, no. Student: Sir, I really must insist. I request and require that you bring me Cakes and Ale. At this point, the student produced a copy of the four hundred year old Laws of Cambridge, written in Latin and still nominally in effect, and pointed to the section which read (rough translation from the Latin): "Gentlemen sitting examinations may request and require Cakes and Ale". Pepsi and hamburgers were judged the modern equivalent, and the student sat there, writing his examination and happily slurping away. Three weeks later though, the student was fined five pounds for not wearing a sword to the examination. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 19:04:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Dealing with the Consequences > > If memory serves me well, abortion was known for a long time before the the > > 17th c. More data--from the novel Tam Lin. I wouldn't usually use a novel as a reference, but I know the author (Pamela Dean) and this is the kind of thing she reseaches well. She started with Nicolas Culpeper's _Pharmacopoeia Londinensis_, because it was the oldest book there. It had been published in 1683 . . . Then she settled on _Rodale's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Herbs_ which has a reassuring look to it. Unfortuneately, most of the Herbs Nicholas Culpeper though caused miscarriage did cause it, according to Rodale--in many cases, it appeard, by being poisons of such virulence that they simply killed the mother. . . . Janet looked in turn at rue, angelica, pennyroyal, and tansy. None of them was considered really safe. I was wrong about yarrow, apparently, at least in a European context. It contains something called thujone which, in sufficient quantities can cause abortion, but its use as an abortifacient was with some American Indians. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:03:47 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Comments and a Report Bzing! This abortion-by-assault method is mentioned in Exodus! In Exodus 21:22, it states "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." E.g. if she was aborted without the consent of the husband or the abortion caused complications, the husband could sue. Remember, the woman may have wanted the child and been unwilling to attempt abortion. However, there were ways around this. _Deirdre >On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Tracy Miller wrote: > > If memory serves me well, abortion was known for a long time before > the the 17th c. This seems a little extreme even if abortion was > too expensive. It seems more likely that the woman would just > attempt it herself using fairly common plants (unless she wanted > the baby for some reason). Posilby fear of poisoning herself would > keep her from trying it, but given the morals of the time, she > might just be desparate enough. Just a thought... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:40:17 -0400 From: GiulianaLG@aol.com Subject: Re: Italian Boning Even though I'm brand new to this list, I can't help but add my 2 cents worth...In this case, regarding the Italian Renaissance bodice: On 8 - 19, Liz Jones commented that after trial and error: "... I now feel that there was no boning at all in any of these, but that there was enough thickness in the layers to provide support and control, giving a natural look, like a kirtle, or a somewhat bulky look later on. ..." I have also been working a great deal with this Italian style (end of the 15th c.) dress for a couple of years now, and I have my own experiences to support your advice. I've finally found a functional method for achieving the slightly high- waisted, rounded bust so evident in portraits of the late 15th c.. It may not be historically accurate, especially working from portraiture since artists were inclined to take liberties in their rendering of dress, but it does seem to provide the appropriate body shape, so essential to conveying a "period feel" to a costume. I use a heavyish [nice use of technical terminology, eh?] weight material, plus iron-on fusible interfacing (front and back) and lining (corduroy works well). Multiple layers combined with the shape of the dress provide exceptional "support" without the rigidity of boning. I use only mild (plastic) boning where the dress laces, to prevent gapping and puckering. Instead of darts, I shape the bust by giving the side seams (under the arms) a good convex rounding. This treatment allows me to have smooth, uninterrupted front and back panels (that is, a bodice made with two pieces), which I am fond of since I prefer heavily patterned fabrics and the smooth-style front. That's all I had to say, so thank you for the space to say it in, Giuliana ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 01:51:18 -0400 From: margritt@mindspring.com (Margritte) Subject: Re: Renaissance Ribbons At 9:54 AM 9/22/95, BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU wrote: >Could someone please give me the address for Rennaissance Ribbons, >I had it, but have misplaced it now. > >thank you in advance, >brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu I don't have the mailing address handy, but here is their email address: FRRIBBONS@aol.com. - -Margritte - ------------------------------------------------------------ Gryphon's Moon - Request our free catalog of Celtic jewelry. email margritt@mindspring.com or check out our web page at http://www.mindspring.com/~maclain/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 02:05:45 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: When Mores Were Less I found this in my research file and it seemed appropriate to the current thread of the not-so-virgin reign. Simon Forman was a well-known Elizabethan astrologer. Many of the peerage were included in his client list...and many of their indiscretions appeared in his diary. In May of 1600 he wrote of Jane Sondes, aged 27. 6 years previously, she had married Edward Flud of Bearsted. That, however, was just the beginning of her remarkable social life. Three years before forman's entry, she was with Sir Calisthenes Brooke, a soldier of fortune. Note that this was 3 years after her wedding. He wrote her letters which she slept with under her pillow, and according to Forman "wished to sleep with him at Throwley Park (her parents' home), and no-one with her but Susan Rigden her maid." But that wasn't all. In Forman's diary he claims that Jane Sondes also "hath loved Henry Wotton and Sir Thomas Gates and others...and now Sir Thomas Walsingham...and loved one Cofield, a priest of Throwley, and Sir Robert Rivingston." The list goes on. "Robin Jones, her father's man, a clerk. Also, Wilmar, Sir Thomas Flud's man, and he is dead. She wears willow for his sake, and a bramble for Sir Calisthenes Brooke, and thyme for Sir Thomas Gates. Also she loved my Lady Vane's son of Kent, and he took her garter from her leg to wear for her sake. And now there is one Vincent Randall that she supposeth and hopeth will have her." This most agreeable lady went on to make a successful second marriage, to Sir Thomas May of Mayfield. I wonder if her wedding bouquet included willow, bramble and thyme? Kathleen (Catriona) (Who's starting to wonder if she _should_ be a little more authentic in her depiction of a 16th century noblewoman...) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #199 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!