From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #206 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Friday, September 29 1995 Volume 3, Number 206 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: RE: Number of Eliza's gowns RE: Book & Questions Re: 1848-1852 Ballgowns leather underpants Coloured Leather Eyeglasses RE: Book & Questions Not on for a while Send Again Please Re: Knitting Re: 1848-1852 Ballgowns Men's Shirt - Approx 1780 19th c clothing in museums Re: Knitting Re: Knitting The Guide to Historic Costume re: french hood Alcega's Pattern book ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 10:47:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: RE: Number of Eliza's gowns Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd lists many items being given as gifts on special occasions/holidays/New Year's. It was apparently a tradition to give Elizabeth clothing gifts on New Year's. And since the giver was judged by the quality of the gift, a great deal of competition was involved. There are also citations to people giving ER clothing gifts to regain her favour after some falling out. Depending on the number of people at court (and those in ill-favour), and the number of years of her reign, it's not surprising she acquired a lot. Also, does anyone have confirmation that it was 4000 GOWNS? Versus 4000 clothing items? The Stowe/Folger inventories list pieces separately, e.g. a French gown, a round gown, a partlet, a pair of sleeves, a kirtle, a forepart, petticoats, bodies, etc. > Sarah E. Goodman wrote: > > >On the other hand, to accumulate 4000 gowns in that > >day and age, even with lots of people feeding your habit, indicates a > >certain amount of pack-ratism on Liza's part, too.) - -- Marsha Hamilton ph: (614) 292-6314 Head, Monograph Acquisition Division fax:(614) 292-2015 The Ohio State University Libraries e-mail: hamilton.8@osu.edu 1858 Neil Avenue Mall Columbus, OH 43210-1286 USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:45:51 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: RE: Book & Questions I've seen that book for sale in a paperback version at Barnes and Noble = just recently. I almost picked it up, but I practically have the whole = book because I copied a lot of pages at the library. Not very authentic, but not bad for general shapes and look of different = time periods. Joan Broneske - ---------- From: Stephen Fraser[SMTP:sunfire@muskoka.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 1995 11:41 AM To: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: Book & Questions Hi! I'm new to this list but already find it really interesting and = informative. I'm looking for a copy of an out of print book: "Patterns for Theatrical Costumes" by Katherine Strand Holkeboer Englewood Cliffs, N.J. Prentice-Hall c 1984 Does anyone out there have and wish to sell a copy of this book to me?? Also...could someone tell me what types of clothes were common in = England from the 9th to the 11th centuries? I know the Romanesque style fits in there. But is there anything else? I too am involved in the SCA and therefore costume making. And one other thing...were there such things as knit sweaters/tunics = back then or is knitting relatively recent?? Thanks much!! K.C. sunfire@muskoka.com Yours in Service, Stephen of Two Falls ~~ Arianna of the Meadow St.Nicholas, Ealdormere >>>>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:53:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: Re: 1848-1852 Ballgowns In regards to the use of silk versus other fibers and their respective strength, silk is extremely strong. Sweat can damage it and antipersperant(sp) is worse. As you are in the bay area Thai silks is right in your area, so don't rule out silk out of hand. Kimberly Smay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 10:24:32 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) Subject: leather underpants I thought the folks on this list might get a kick out of this... Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org >From "Newsbriefs" (no pun intended???) section of "Archaeology" magazine, September/October 1995 issue: VERSATILE UNDERPANTS Leather underpants, apparently used to plug a leak in a Bronze Age boat, have been recovered from the vessel's caulking material. Found near Dover, England, the 60-foot boat may have sprung a leak during a cross-channel voyage. Paul Bennett of the Canterbury Archaeological Trust says, "it was an old boat which saw much service and would have leaked during rough, wintry seas. It seems someone was asked to make the ultimate sacrifice. It is an evocative find." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 13:52:25 -0400 From: sunfire@muskoka.com (Stephen Fraser) Subject: Coloured Leather Can someone answer this question: Was dyed leather available in the 12th Century? I mean like black leather lacing in shirts etc., or was it all just natural? P.S. Thanks to all who responded to my question re book and knitting, its been most helpful! Krista sunfire@muskoka.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 13:47:44 -0500 From: bpnoble@mailbag.com (Bronwyn Noble) Subject: Eyeglasses After seeing the recent questions regarding period eyewear on this list, I contacted a good SCA friend of mine (Master Einar Lutemaker) who is, mundanely, a curator at a museum of the history of science in Minneapolis and who has done significant amounts of research on the subject and asked him for some references. He responded: >Dear Bronwyn, > >I have a file folder full of eyeglass references -- but if you want a mundane >book you might have a decent chance of finding, go to the theatrical-costume >section (probably) and consult "Fashions in Eyeglasses" by Richard Corson. >The Encyclopedia Britannica has some useful information in the article on >"Lens". You could try "A Pictorial History of Inventions" by Umberto Eco and >G.B. Zorzoli -- it's been translated into English, and the section you want >is "The Development of Optics". Finally, try "Scientific Instruments" by >Harriet Wynter and Anthony Turner. And most any history of the microscope >that begins at the beginning will include the early glasses for presbyopia. > >Hope that's useful. If you have a more specific question let me know and I >can dig a bit harder. > If anyone wants any more specific info, let me know and I will forward it to him. Also, the first pamphlet in the SCA Compleat Anachronist series is on period eyewear (written, not coincidentally, by the selfsame Master Einar). Bronwyn Bronwyn ferch Gwyn ap Rhys - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Per pale azure and gules, a tabby cat sejant guardant Or. On a chief Or, three hawk bells azure. = * = * = * = * = * = * = * = * = * = * = * = * = * = * = * = Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with a cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat. -- Mark Twain - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 17:36:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "\"Randy Shipp\"" Subject: RE: Book & Questions It was written: > The book you want is no longer out of print. It is now being printed > by Drama Book Publishers. Since it is currently listed on their > WWW catalog, I assume that you can still order it. They have it > listed at $29.95. I'm sitting on Drama Book Publishers' Web page right now, and I wonder if anyone has any editorial opinion of another title I see advertised there: The Guide to Historic Costume Karen Baclawski 0-89676-137-1 The 270 photographs it says it has (and no mention of drawn figures) leads me to believe it might not contain much relevant to my persona (1280 Norman). If this is not a good book, which are? I have so far only found two books by John Peacock, "Costume: 1066 to 1966", and "The Chronicle of Western Fashion." Which other books would be most useful? Thanks Randy Shipp rshipp@dale.hsc.unt.edu ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 95 14:27:34 EDT From: Rhane <74404.22@compuserve.com> Subject: Not on for a while Well, We ordered a tower model computer but got a mini-tower from Escom. Now Escom has decided to go ahead and finally give us the tower! So, what does all this mean? It means, folks, that starting this coming Monday, we're going to be offline for a week!!! Which means, dear friends, don't send me ANY e-mail! Just hold off until we get back online, OK??? Thanks so much to all! :D And see y'all in a week! Rhane (Di) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 17:31:07 EST From: cthulhu.engr.sgi.com!sgi.engr.sgi.com!SMTPGWY!dlxibm!Liz_Jones Subject: Send Again Please Would the person who directly sent me a message regarding cartridge pleating, and referenced the German horizontal striped skirts please resend again? I seem to have deleted your message with a bunch of others, but was very interested in keeping the information!!! Thanks ljones@datalogix.com (you must address new each time) ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 1995 16:02:01 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Knitting Reply to: RE>>Knitting Richard Rutt in A History of Hand Knitting has three reproductions of madonnas knitting prior to 1400. Two are Italian, and one is German. The earliest of the three was done by an Italian artist whose last dated work was 1348 (the year the black plague came through his town). Each madonna is knitting in the round on double pointed needles (four in the garment and the working one in her hand, European style). On the floor near her is the baby Jesus, who looks to be about the right size to fit into the cylinder Mary is working on, once she has finished it (presumably it will end up with sleeves and a neck hole). Rutt does not make any leaps of faith. He refuses to guess if knitting was a pastime of the nobility or whether it was a professional pursuit of the 14th century working class. He does refer to the master work requirements to become a full member of a knitting guild, but that's later. In the 1500's if memory serves. Carole Newson-Smith SCA : Cordelia Toser ------------------------------ Date: 28 Sep 1995 16:09:30 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: 1848-1852 Ballgowns RE>1848-1852 Ballgowns 9/28/95 Monica, You sometimes can get lucky at bridal shops. They sell off sample bridesmaid dresses from time to time, and if there is a style that is fairly close, that could save a lot of time as well as money. The only fabric I can think of that looks kinda like silk and is considered sturdier is nylon. Frankly, I don't think you'd want to use it. Try more than one Hancock's store. Also, there are couple of fabric stores down on Bascom below I-280 you might look into. And if you haven't been into Exotic Silks in Los Altos, go there Saturday and just look. Their prices -- at least for noil and China silk are legendary - -- and people from all over the country buy from them by mail. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:38:55 +1000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Men's Shirt - Approx 1780 Greetings, listgoers, The fool (me) has been commissioned to make a men's shirt, c1780, for a friend. (Rule No. 1 - never mention to friends that you do your own sewing) I have the pattern from Norah Waugh (the one that's basically 4 rectangles and a couple of triangles - "men's shirt 1700 to 1820"), and have worked out most of the measurements (3m exactly of material!) so now need a couple of pointers. 1) Cotton batiste, swiss voile, "hanky linen", Casbar (?) or organdie? (I can't find a fine enough linen in white). 2) THe wrist band with the button and button hole on it - do I make a placket as well :-( or do I leave about 10 cm of sleeve between the two so that he can put his hand through? 3) How do I fasten up the front? Holes and laces or hooks and eyes or buttons and loops? Or is it just held together by the collar at the top being fastened? 4) Are all the gussets triangles or are the underarm ones diamonds? 5) Any nasty little tricks I should know? BTW, RE: slashed doublets and raw edges, there was a contemporary quote in "The Cut of Men's Clothes" about a guy that looked totally ridiculous (their judgement, not mine) because he hadn't thought to have the edges of his slashes stitched, and thus his arms were covered with threads fraying everywhere. Your help (as always) has been invaluable, good gentles all. Gillian + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 (space for ASCII | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au picture when I | | "The Midnight Fox", "Mummy" find the time!) | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 19:31 CDT From: vbetts@gower.net (Vicki Betts) Subject: 19th c clothing in museums I will be attending an ACW reenactment near Nashville at the end of October, and spending the following week traveling from Birmingham, Ala. toward Indianapolis and then back to the Shaker Village at Pleasant Hill, KY the following weekend for a conference. Besides the mourning exhibits at Belle Meade and the Carter House at Franklin, TN, does anyone know of any good 19th century clothing exhibits along that stretch of road? They don't have to be very extensive. I would definitely make a side trip for any Southern homespun dresses from the Civil War. Thanks, Vicki Betts vbetts@gower.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 18:32:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Knitting On 27 Sep 1995, Dawn T. Jacobson wrote: > According to the brief history of knitting in Nancy Bush's book _Folk Socks: The > History & Techniques of Handknitted Footwear_ (Interweave Press, Loveland, CO: > 1994), the oldest surving examples of knitted textile fragments (made from > interlacing a single thread into a series of connected loops to create fabric) > date from before 256AD, and were found at the site of the Syrian fortress city > of Dura Europos (founded 280BC). These fragments are now in the collection of > Yale University, and are very similar to Crossed Eastern Knitting. The oldest I know that a number of sources mention items made with this technique (sometimes called with the Scandinavian term "Nalebindung") in association with knitting, but I think that is rather misleading. Typologically, the technique is much more closely related to some types of needle-lace! Margarethe Hald's book on early Danish textiles gives detailed instructions for this technique, including elaborate diagrams. > stockings--after checking other reference sources in my library, I'm not willing > to go out on a limb and say that knitting was used for anything other than the > manufacture of socks and stockings. The earliest pattern I have for a garment > other than a socks, stockings, caps, or mittens is from the early 1890s. Anne L. For early Old-World knitting, the best source I've found is "A History of Hand Knitting" by Richard Rutt (Interweave Press, 1989. ISBN 0-934026-35-1). It has photographs of 13th century Egyptian knitted socks, 13th century Spanish knitted cushions, and a whole group of paintings of "knitting Madonnas", for example a late 14th century Italian painting showing the Virgin knitting what is obviously a short-sleeved shirt of some type using four double-ended needles in a circular technique. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 21:38:57 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Knitting Richard Rutt, _History of Hand Knitting_, Interweave Press, ISBN 0-934826-35-1. The pre-history aand history of knitting, with some very early samples and the earliest recorded pattern for stockings (1655), also lists early knitting liturature. Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 19:34:10 -0700 From: Allan Terry Subject: The Guide to Historic Costume Karen Baclawski's _Guide to Historic Costume_ is a costume "dictionary" which small black-and-white photos, most of which I recognize from published museum catalogs, where they are often bigger. It focuses on surviving examples (though it is not a comprehensive directory to them by any means) so the periods covered are Elizabethan till about now. I think it would be most useful to people just beginning to learn about historic costume, and not focusing on any one era. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 00:07:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Kimberly Smay Subject: re: french hood Recently some folks have suggested methods of constructing a french hood. I will argue with the measurements etc., but the materials are a bit chancy. Rather than use coat hanger wire to build the frame, try to track down milliners wire. barring that you could use heavy florists wire. pieces can be grafted together or made heavier using florists tape. Once your basic frame is made it can be covered with buckrum attached using grosgrain ribbon around the wire. The ribbon can be glued(i use rubber cement) or sewn. An earlier post mentioned buckrums tendency to wilt in the rain, but when wired it is quite sturdy. One can create virtually any shape hat using this method and then cover the resulting form with fabric, paint or another desired material. Kimberly Smay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 07:27:39 +0000 From: "Jennifer Kubenka" Subject: Alcega's Pattern book Hi all. Forgive my ignorance here, but I've just checked out a copy of Alcega's Tailor Patterns from 1589, and now I have a couple of questions. Just *how* do you go about determining what the scale is on those ittty-bitty drawings so that you can enlarge them to fit real people? How hard is it to make something from these patterns? Thanks for sharing your wisdom in this regard, Jennifer D. Kubenka Series Authority/Monographs Cataloger Fondren Library Southern Methodist University Dallas, Texas ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #206 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!