From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #209 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, October 2 1995 Volume 3, Number 209 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Bookshops Bookshops Re: Spectacles Corset Saftey!! Royal Ascot Unusual 14th-C "Belt" 1930 Corset with underbelt Comments Monthly Reminders. Re: on getting your clothes (and hands?) dirty costume collection guide Re: costume collection guide ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 02 Oct 95 09:26:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Bookshops I'm not sure which shops Carole referred to recently. There are the English Heritage shops, and the National Trust shops, both of which have shops associated with properties they own. I wouldn't recommend either of them for books really. If you are in London, you could try Foyles in Charing Cross Road (up near Oxford Street) if you are prepared to cope with their wierd paying system. There are lots of second-hand books shops further down Charing Cross Road, which tend to be over-priced (If you want to find out about second-hand book shops in the UK, try to pick up Driffs Guide - idiosyncratic and useful). There is also Dillons at the top of Gower Street in central London - it's the University of London main book shop so is pretty good. I can highly recommend the British Museum bookshop - I always want to spend a fortune there, and if you are there at the right time, they do short tours of the British Library Reading Room - before they move the BL to Kings Cross. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 12:07:55 +0100 (BST) From: J M V Rayner Subject: Bookshops > If you are in London, you could try Foyles in Charing Cross Road (up near > Oxford Street) if you are prepared to cope with their wierd paying system. > There are lots of second-hand books shops further down Charing Cross Road, > which tend to be over-priced (If you want to find out about second-hand > book shops in the UK, try to pick up Driffs Guide - idiosyncratic and > useful). There is also Dillons at the top of Gower Street in central > London - it's the University of London main book shop so is pretty good. Usually better for costume books in London are two art bookshops a couple of hundred yards south in Charing Cross Road: Zwemmers, and Shipley. Both on the east side, before you get to Leicester Square underground. Mainly new stock, but occasionally a little second hand. Jeremy Rayner +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Professor Jeremy M. V. Rayner School of Biological Sciences University of Bristol, Woodland Road, Bristol BS8 1UG, U.K. tel. +44 117 928 8111, messages +44 117 928 7476, fax +44 117 925 7374 e-mail J.M.V.Rayner@bristol.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 07:39:49 CDT From: "Cindy Abel" Subject: Re: Spectacles Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 00:45:05 -0500 To: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Spectacles Mary I was also very near-sighted, so a lorgnette would have not been just a fashion accessory, but needed. But I haven't seen mention that Mary I had glasses, lorgnettes, or whatever. Susan Fatemi said: > I watched "Lady Jane Grey" with Helena Bonham Carter on the > weekend, and in one scene, Mary Tudor (not yet queen) looks > at her thru' a lorgnette. It struck me as anachronistic, but > I don't know alot about the details of the tudor period. Were > people wearing spectacles by 1550?? Not commonly, given the cost of lensmaking. However, spectacles were being made in the manner they were up until 1910 or so as early as 1260. The first commercial book on lensmaking was published in 1591 in Frankfurt. Lensmaking was a specialization for some Venetian glassmakers, who made them for sailing expeditions (e.g. spotting scopes used to see land and water features). In 1610, Galileo commissioned a telescope from a Dutch company supplied with Venetian glass lenses in the appropriate sizes. So, yes, it would have been period, though I can't specifically recall an example of a lorgnette. Due to the expense of the lens, it would have been as much a fashion accessory as a long strand of pearls or a few yards of fine lace. We don't think a lot about glass now, but in Renaissance Venice, if a glassmaker attempted to leave the state, the Doge sent out a squad of hit men to preserve the state secrets. _Deirdre (enamored with Ren Ven) Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:27:24 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Corset Saftey!! On Sun, 1 Oct 1995, Browyn Noble wrote, > Along the same line, bamboo skewers (like those used for shish-kabobs) > should work nicely when used as "bents" in Elizabethan corsets. I would NOT recommend bamboo for corset boning. It can break with a sharp point and pierce the wearer. I've heard that chair caning material is better to use. Since corset boning is available, why are people so interested in finding something else to use? I've seen people mention metal strapping leftover from hardware stores or the construction industry. With the cutting & filing necessary, this seems like a very labor- intensive material. OK for hoops, perhaps, but not corsets. Yes, other materials may be cheaper, but a corset is worth the investment in the best stay boning and fabric. It will be worn over and over again with many dresses! -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 08:42:36 CST From: "Mary Wood" Subject: Royal Ascot I am looking for sources on the Ascot horse races, especially on what the attendees would have worn in the 1870s. I seem to remember hearing that the colors required changed from year to year, but the only time I've seen it depicted was in My Fair Lady. I would also be interested in general history sources for this social event if they include pictures. In one of those years (1878?) I read that the Prince of Wales and Lillie Langtry created a particular scandel by appearing together. Anything about these general or specific events would be appreciated. Mary Wood MPW@gml.lib.uwm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 1995 14:07:55 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Unusual 14th-C "Belt" In one of the manuscripts reprinted in "Medieval Health Books", a page devoted to "Rosa" (roses) depicts a young man in a short pink houppelande beseeching on knee a lady in a cotehardie, all under a rose trained into a tree. The lad wears what appears to be a belt (red, I think) cinched as though for his waist (and the excess belt knotted over in the typical fashion of SCA belts), but worn _around_ his neck. Any guesses? Is this really not a belt (it really looks like one), or does this convey some meaning I'm missing? Has anyone ever seen/heard of something similar? Foppish fashion in Italy that year? | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Sewing is so much easier when I use the sharp end." /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: 02 Oct 95 16:20:06 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: 1930 Corset with underbelt I have an interview record relating to 1933, when a 13 year old girl wore a boned corset with a "rigid" underbelt. The woman concerned said that it was like wearing a suit of armour 2 sizes to small. She did not wear the garment during the week, only at weekends. Her mother told her that the corset was required on Saturday as she went to dancing lessons, and Sundays always meant best wear. Can anyone tell me the function of the underbelt on an already well boned corset? I have seen ads in 1930 magazines and some models do have underbelts. The fashion did not want to define the waist, so it was not a waist cincher. Did the U belt just add rigidity? Or was it meant to help with pot bellies ? Anyway, whatever the function, the overall discomfort and restriction was not appreciated by the 13 year old in 1933. Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Oct 95 17:12:55 EST From: cthulhu.engr.sgi.com!sgi.engr.sgi.com!SMTPGWY!dlxibm!Liz_Jones Subject: Comments First of all, thanks to everyone with suggestions on English and French costume-related museums. Another followup: I am specifically interested in seeing the Pisanello costume studies in Chantilly and the Ashmolean. Any comments on other worthwhile material? Still hoping to receive more suggestions on books, etc. Another plea for me deleted email on gores, German horizontal stripes and the woman's name for places to visit in England and France. I apologize for asking again, but I REALLY want to keep that information! Caroline: thanks for the TIMELY update on the Undercroft museum exhibit of QEI underwear. Are there any specific visiting restrictions, or do I assume I can cruise in there any time during normal business hours? On abortion and related issues: Somewhere in the past year I believe, Archaeology magazine did a very interesting article on abortive procedures and preventative measures from ancient to modern times. In general it was very informative, and I would highly recommend it. I believe the cover was of a round Greek motif with women on it. On Pregnancy garb in the 15th century: I was interested in this last year when I was pregnant and then later when nursing. In Italy there are a few Madonna portraits showing a quite voluminous woman in a camora: basic underdress for both noble and common alike. I believe that Fra Angelico (? - - don't have my books at hand) portrays La Madonna del Parto in a blue camora with lacing spread at the front (and sides?) to accommodate her middle girth. When I wore my kirtles, I let the lacing spread in this manner, although I didn't think it was that attractive. As Italian giorneas and cioppas were quite accommodating as overdresses, there would have been little need to adjust for pregnancy. For nursing I employed a chemise with nursing slits, and then wore a center open kirtle, or dual slit camora with a giornea over it. There are quite a few depictions of nursing women around 1480, so that helps. I really like the chemises I made for this purpose (good linen), but no longer nurse, so I turn them around and wear them backwards to cover up the small gaps that would otherwise be evident. The chemises were cut in a raglan pattern, and are almost reversible, so it doesn't matter much. I recommend Kat for making the French hood with buckram and hat wire. It's really not that hard to find either material, and they do hold up fairly well. I cut two paper patterns: the first with 1/2" seam allowance, the second without. The second is used for the buckram (heavyweight hat buckram, not the flimsy stuff often found in stores), to which I then sew the hat wire. You can do it on machine with a zig-zag stitch, or by hand. I do not overcast the edge with anything, but then place a layer (cut from the second pattern) of heavy weight interfacing over the top to protect against bumpiness. I then sew together a cover fabric from the first pattern, and insert the buckram shaping within. A note for the "hood" part: I use black velvet lined with cotton to grip the head better. The shape of the hood is usually a modern sleeve pattern: straight with symmetrical sides, not the "S" shape of medieval or renaissance. Play with the shape to make sure the "shoulder" part of the cap is high enough to cover the top of your head and attach to the hood, and the "underarm" is low enough to go under the hairline at the nape of the neck. I also usually sew a comb on the hood to grip my hair better. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 20:32:15 -0700 (PDT) From: close (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Monthly Reminders. Okay, maybe not monthly, but semi-regular anyway! :-) UNSUBSCRIBING FROM THE LIST: To unsubscribe from the list, send a message to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com In that message, say one of the following as the body of the message: unsubscribe h-costume end (if you are signed up to the direct mail version) or unsubscribe h-costume-digest end (if you are signed up to the digest version.) **** And now the rest of the reminders: **** SUBSCRIBING TO THE LIST: To join the list, send a message to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com In that message, say one of the following as the body of the message: subscribe h-costume end or subscribe h-costume-digest end The first will put you on the list to receive approx. 2-10 mailings per day. The second will put you on the list to receive one digest approximately every 1-5 days of the past week's mailings. Archives are available by using e-mail, from the archive server, majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. To get an index of available files, send a message with the words: index h-costume as the body of the message, to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Then use the command: get h-costume filename where "filename" is the actual name of the file, to retrieve the named file. Multiple requests per message are allowed. I suggest starting with the files CONTENTS and TOPICS. Note that they are spelled in all capital letters -- the server is case sensitive. When you get an index of files back, you'll notice that some file names are spelled in all capital letters and some are a mix of lower case letters and numbers. Request them exactly as you see them listed. I.e. if you request "contents" you'll get back an error message, but if you ask for CONTENTS you'll get back that file. The CONTENTS file is a list of all the topics discussed, split up by volume numbers. The TOPICS file is an alphabetical list of all the topics discussed, and a notation that tells you in which volume they can be found. So, if you wanted the file called TOPICS you'd send: get h-costume TOPICS as the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server would send you back that file. To reach a person for help with any of the list commands, send e-mail to: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu **** End of reminders! **** - -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 00:39:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Victoria Gilliam Subject: Re: on getting your clothes (and hands?) dirty On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Joe Marfice wrote: > On Mon, 04 Sep 95 Dennis Allen Carr writes: > ... > >And last, but not least, do NOT get black ones for use in hot weather. I > >think the reason is obvious. > > Actually, the reason isn't quite so obvious: Black clothing is only hotter > when it is in direct sunlight, which it absorbs fastest of all colours. > Conversely, it radiates heat fastest, and is the coolest colour at night > (though most bodily heat loss is through evaporating sweat and air currents). > So, there's no reason to avoid black _undergarments_, at least in terms of > comfort. I thought the point that Dennis was trying to make was first that black would show through any light colored clothes, and second that sweating in black could either a) stain your outer clothes with black or b) stain your skin (I've had black shoes stain white socks when they got damp). Ellsbeth Lachlanina MacLabhruinn mka Vycke' - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | http://www.aksi.net/unicorn | Sangre del Sol, Trimaris | | Brain fried -- core dumped. | Future Knight & Laurel..... | - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vycke' Gilliam z009341b@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (If someone could tell me if these are getting to anyone else on the list besides myself, I'd appreciate it...since no one seems to reply to my questions.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Oct 95 23:49:16 CST From: "nelso230@maroon.tc.umn.edu" Subject: costume collection guide On September 28, Vicki Betts (vbetts@gower.net) wrote: > I will be attending an ACW reenactment near Nashville at the end of > October...does anybody know of any good 19th century clothing exhibits > along that stretch of the road?... While I can't suggest anything to Vicki, her request is worth expanding upon. H-costume has recently archived several submitted bibliographies. Maybe we should also attempt to compile a regional guide to costume collections based on the accumulated personal knowledge of list subscribers. Some wonderful opportunities to not only view, but also examine and photograph original garments are available if you know who to talk to and where to look. This summer, my wife and I visited the Shelburne Museum in Vermont, a visit inspired by reference to the Shelburne's clothing collection in the h-costume correspondence. Weeks before our visit, we contacted Celia Oliver, who is in charge of the clothing collection at the Shelburne, and expressed interest in seeing their collection in depth. When we arrived, we were given the attention of an intern who was at that time engaged in cataloguing the children's clothing. For more than two hours, we were able to photograph garments, examine construction details and ask questions of this pleasant and knowledgeable young lady. The items on display in the museum proper were very limited, so we felt very fortunate to have had the opportunity to go behind the scenes. If it hadn't been for the h-costume list, we wouldn't have known it was worth seeking out. Any interest out there in compiling such a guide? I'd like to see it include not only the U.S., but also U.K. and European sites as well. Suppose we just throw out any information that seems useful and let it take shape? Just a thought... Bill Nelson Bill Nelson (also BILLinMN@aol.com) Minneapolis, MN USA *************************************************************************** "This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." --Will Rogers *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:49:36 +1000 (EST) From: Fiona Thorne Subject: Re: costume collection guide On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, nelso230@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote: > While I can't suggest anything to Vicki, her request is worth > expanding upon. H-costume has recently archived several submitted > bibliographies. Maybe we should also attempt to compile a regional guide > to costume collections based on the accumulated personal knowledge of list > subscribers. Some wonderful opportunities to not only view, but also > examine and photograph original garments are available if you know who to > talk to and where to look. < Parts deleted> > list, we wouldn't have known it was worth seeking out. Any interest out > there in compiling such a guide? I'd like to see it include not only the > U.S., but also U.K. and European sites as well. Suppose we just throw out > any information that seems useful and let it take shape? I am wanting to build up such a list of Australian museums, and I often note down the details of UK museums. I would be happy to keep a list of museums and contact details, and submit it to the server every so often (say once a month), but it would only be a dump of what everybody else has told me, sorted say by country and state/province. I would take no responsibility for the information in the list. (And any info that I received that was not explicit about where the museum was then the info would lumped into a "misc" category.) What might be better was if one person in each country maintained a list for that country? Possible format for such information: Name of institution: Location: Specialties: Period of Collection: Contact Details: Description of collection: Any other information: Specialties could be based on a keyword format - Medieval, Renaissance, Victorian, etc Period of collection could be numeric (eg 1800s, 600-1000) > > Just a thought... > Bill Nelson A good thought Fiona ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #209 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!