From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #210 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, October 3 1995 Volume 3, Number 210 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: on getting your clothes (and hands?) dirty Pattern Books 1880s dresses clothing for dance? RE: Men's Shirt - Approx 1780 re: general Authenticity Knitted mail ISBN numbers for Little Costume... Re: costume collection guide Corset boning Re: Corset boning Re: Corset boning RE: Musings: woodcut and rollers Re: Corset boning RE: Corset boning ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:54:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Kimberly R. Gilbert" Subject: Re: on getting your clothes (and hands?) dirty On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Victoria Gilliam wrote: > I thought the point that Dennis was trying to make was first that black > would show through any light colored clothes, and second that sweating in > black could either a) stain your outer clothes with black or b) stain > your skin (I've had black shoes stain white socks when they got damp). > Actually, leotards are made to be exercised in and therefore sweated into. If this is still a concern, just buy a good-quality leotard from someone like Capezio or Danskin. Kimberly R. Gilbert Dreamers have mountains they can climb SCA Anne Fenton There are dreamers who don't believe in time Only dreamers have worlds where they can go far away. ------------------------------ Date: 03 Oct 95 09:55:56 EDT From: "Dawn T. Jacobson" <74647.1271@compuserve.com> Subject: Pattern Books Krista (sunfire@muskoka.com) asked: >>Could anyone recommend a great book for someone who really can only work from patterns, that would be similar to, but maybe more historically acurate than say the Katherine Holkeboer book, "Patterns for Theatrical Costumes"??<< _Period Costume for Stage and Screen_ by Jean Hunnisett (Players Press, Inc., Studio City: 1991). The first volume covers women's clothes from 1500-1800; the second volume covers 1800-1909. They are relatively expensive (about $40 per volume) and worth every penny. Each volume contains good, basic information like "how to drape a toile" and "building corsets"; lots of patterns (on grids, so that they can be enlarged and modified easily); and excellently written construction directions, complete with tips to make "rough spots" easier. Also included in each volume are complete patterns and instructions for all the necessary underpinnings. These are the books used by most of the major historical costumers I know of on the West Coast, and probably throughout the United States; personally, if I could only have 2 books on historical costume construction, it would be these two (they're that good). Dawn Jacobson 74647.1271@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: 03 Oct 95 09:55:59 EDT From: "Dawn T. Jacobson" <74647.1271@compuserve.com> Subject: 1880s dresses Joan Broenski asked: >>I would like to know what colors are suitable for an 1880's dress. It = seems that I've seen a lot of black. Was this worn for every day wear, = or just for mourning?=20<< Lots of colors were extremely popular during the 1880s, frequently in combinations that appear truly garish to 20th Century eyes (or did, until it became OK to dye one's hair purple or lime green 8-) ). Black was often used, simply because it was a popular color--went with everything, and didn't show the dirt. A quick perusal of Stella Blum's _Victorian Fashions & Costumes from "Harper's Bazar": 1867-1898_ (Dover Books, NY: 1974), has turned up a dinner dress of Isabelle yellow brocade with darker golden brown plush and white lace (p. 122), an evening gown of turquoise lampas, turquoise satin and straw-colored Surah, trimmed with red roses, a dark green grosgrain (aka "faille") walking suit, trimmed with red wool (p. 133), a red and black Autumn toilette (p. 145), a violet and ecru watering-place costume (p. 158), a walking dress in golden brown wool and brown and grey-blue striped silk (p. 163), a red and white striped Summer toilette (p. 170), and my personal choice for the "bad taste costs no more" award, an house gown in black, brocaded with clusters of pink barley spikes, and trimmed with pink pleatings and a corselet of pink silk crepon. 8-) >>Also, any suggestions on how to make a good bustle? From pictures I've seen the way they are looped and draped looks rather complicated."<< The secret to a good bustle is having a good foundation. Jean Hunnisett's book _Period Costume for Stage and Screen_ (Vol II: Patterns for Women's Dress 1800-1909) (Players Press, Inc., Studio City: 1991) gives patterns and detailed instructions on building a pad bustle, a ruffled petticoat, and a bustle made with spring steel/hooping wire. These patterns work--I've built the pad bustle and ruffled petticoat, and it works extremely well under my 1889 ballgown. Ms. Hunnisett also give very good instructions on how to build the skirt/dress with enough fullness to allow for graceful draping, and how to secure the "looped up" skirt. Through trial and error, I've found the best way to drape a skirt over a bustle is to put the dress on my dress form with all the underpinnings, then fiddle and pin until I have it just the way I want it. I put in temporary tacks to hold the folds until I can get the dress off the dress form and secure them properly. Dawn Jacobson 74647.1271@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:22:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Kimberly R. Gilbert" Subject: clothing for dance? This may not actually fit into these groups, but does anyone know where I can find pictures of clothing worn in American Heritage and/or International Folk dances? I've tried the library, but am probably looking in the wrong place (I can't imagine not having very much info on this in a library this size). Any ideas that people want to send would be much appreciated. Thanks, Kimberly R. Gilbert Dreamers have mountains they can climb SCA Anne Fenton There are dreamers who don't believe in time Only dreamers have worlds where they can go far away. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:44:39 -0400 From: Kjotvi@aol.com Subject: RE: Men's Shirt - Approx 1780 The best source I've seen for the era is "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" by Ellen J.Gehret, published by Liberty Cap Books, York, Pennsylvania. It covers all you need to know to reproduce the entire outfit for rural men or women from about 1750 to 1800. The focus is on reproducing the garments, the sewing and construction detail is excellent, but it is a little light on historical contexts for the various examples. I think that it is probably the best source for your situation. a few quick notes: As a general rule the neck openings of shirts did not have plackets until about the1840's and then only for the wealthy, and the only major change in the lower class shirt from 1750 to 1860 is that the rectangular sleeves gathered into the shoulder and cuff are replaced somewhere after 1800 by sleves which taper into the cuff with little or no gathering at cuff or shoulder and the collar and cuffs become narrower. . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:44:27 -0400 From: Kjotvi@aol.com Subject: re: general Authenticity Concerning the discussions about the relative authenticity of groups, here's my two bits worth. Back in september there was a posting which stated: "I _do_ envy the authenticity standards involved in Civil War Re-enactment groups and with the SCA was a little closer to this level." I left the SCA over a decade ago (not for authenticity reasons, I just realized that I wasn't interested in doing nobility, and that was about all the SCA did back then). Eventually I drifted into fur trade re-enactment and thought "now I'll see some REAL living history!" It turned out that the standards were not all that much higher than tha SCA had been, the self-styled experts still out-numbered and out-shouted those with real knowlege, and the proprotion of those just coasting on hear-say documentation was just as high. What made it all the more infuriating was that the the answers were so much more documentable, as the time period was re;atively recent, and limited to twenty years. I think the SCA can be given a little slack considering that their period covers nearly a thousand years, and for many of them what information does exist can be vary hard to find. I think one of the answers for all these groups is for those who know to produce clear and documented information on appropriate costume with the focus on steering new participants away from the more glaring mistakes, to make this info widely available, and most importantly to admit up front our own limitations. To say "I believe" or "I believe strongly" rather than "I am sure that..." as it is hard for a new member to know what to take literally and what not to. This could be anything from a full fledged instruction book to a list of the ten best and worst costume books for a particular era with the reasons why, and the ten most common or easily avoided costume mistakes for the beginner. If any wish to discuss (or argue) the matter, please e-mail me directly, as it can be a month or more between occasions when I have time to download our back issues of H-Costume Digest. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:44:16 -0400 From: Kjotvi@aol.com Subject: Knitted mail Several months ago there was a long discussion of the term "knitted" in reference to mail (okay, so it's taken me this long to find the time to download my digests! Mea Culpa!). Two things come to mind that may or may not have been eventually mentioned: 1) In the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) the act of using two pliers to join wire rings into mail is refered to as "knitting" simply because, with practice, it looks like a little old lady knitting (and the domestic immagery is amusingly ironic when applied to the concept of a verile warrior). 2) In n Osprey Men at Arms book on armor of the Roman Republic, they showed a diagram of early form of the Lorica Hamata formed of mail that was supposedly made of a length of wire literally knitted, ie: repeatedly looped through itself in a continnuing sort of chain stitch. The text mentioned that this form was fairly quickly replaced with the far stronger and more flexible form of seperately interlinked wire rings that would remain the standard throughout the Middle Ages, and is what most of us think of when we hear the term "Mail". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:56:52 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: ISBN numbers for Little Costume... Someone was looking for ISBN numbers for the Little Costume Workbook Series. Here they are: The Little Bodice Book ISBN: 0-89676-131-2 The Little Hatmaking Book ISBN: 0-89676-126-6 The Little Hatmaking Book II ISBN: 0-89676-127-4 The Little Hatmaking Book III ISBN: 0-89676-128-2 The Little Corset Construction Book ISBN: 0-89676-130-4 The Little Dressmaking Book ISBN: 0-89676-129-0 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:38:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Deborah Tarsiewicz - 3528981 Subject: Re: costume collection guide On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, nelso230@maroon.tc.umn.edu wrote: > ... Maybe we should also attempt to compile a regional guide > to costume collections based on the accumulated personal knowledge of list > subscribers... This sounds like a wonderful idea. I would love to have access to such a guide :D Deborah Tarsiewicz dtarsiew@nunic.nu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:48:50 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Corset boning The other day, I asked, "Since corset boning is available, why are people so interested in finding something else to use?" In a personal note, Bronwyn pointed out that metal stays were not the only thing used in corsets. She is correct; my comment was about suggestions of industrial metal strapping for corset stays. Bronwyn reminded me that dried grasses were used early on. Does anyone know what type of grass, and where to find it now? Chair caning seems to be a suitable material now, but I would not recommend bamboo. The "boning" needs to be flexible enough to bend without breaking into pointy-ended pieces! Whalebone, as we all know, was most commonly used through many eras. Since we can't get it now, what is a reasonable substitute? I've never had the chance to bend a piece of real whalebone to see how flexible it is. Has anyone else? Museums are rather picky about letting people bend their artifacts, and an old piece of whalebone may be less flexible than a new piece. One friend has tried cutting strips of bleach bottles to use for stays. He said they were the same flexibility as whalebone. If that is the case, would plastic featherboning also be the same as whalebone? I also heard that a set of stays half-boned (a space between each bone, or stay) with metal stays would work the same as a set fully-boned (stays right next to each other with only one row of stitching between them) with whalebone. This would also support the use of plastic featherboning. I've seen stays using about six pieces of featherboning in them - the boning bends & doesn't do much to hold the shape of the stays. But what if the stays were fully boned with the featherboning? Has anyone tried this? Is it hotter to wear plastic in stays, or is just as hot to wear metal? Corsets, stays, and jumps were also stiffened with cording. Some 19thC corsets (particularly 1820 - 1870) had sections of cording between the metal stays. There have been references to "packthread", which I took to mean cording. The cord used does not have to be stiff. Cable cord can be used, but it does need to be compressed while stitched. I've tried drapery pull cord - it's very stiff & works well. I found it made of natural fiber, but most available today is synthetic. I avoided the synthetic because I thought it would be hotter to wear. Since cording is round, it takes up more fabric and makes the corset smaller. I discovered this the hard way & fixed it by putting an extra panel in my garment. My (uncompressed) waist is around 32", my bust around 36", and I needed an extra 4" to make it fit again. Does anyone have a formula for estimating the amount taken up by cording? In her talk at the Louisbourg encampment this summer, Suzanne Gousse talked about the corset worn by French Canadian settlers. (1750's) She said the English equivalent would be Jumps. The corset was stiffened by sewing the paper pattern right into the garment, and two pieces of boning were in the center front edges. Suzanne substitutes heavyweight pellon in her corset so she will be able to wash it. Does anyone else have information about 18thC jumps? I've heard of women's waistcoats, worn as an extra layer in colder climates, like New England. They can be confused for jumps in museum collections. I've read that jumps are lightly boned stays, worn by the lower class. I believe Norah Waugh's _Corsets & Crinolines_ is where I saw the quote, "A lady in stays, a slattern in jumps." -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 21:40:34 +0200 (EET) From: Lynoure Rajam{ki Subject: Re: Corset boning On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Carol Kocian wrote: > use of plastic featherboning. I've seen stays using about six pieces > of featherboning in them - the boning bends & doesn't do much to hold > the shape of the stays. But what if the stays were fully boned with > the featherboning? Has anyone tried this? Is it hotter to wear > plastic in stays, or is just as hot to wear metal? I've made a ribbon corset (from around year 1900) with 16 plastic bones, because I haven't found metal boning here. The bones held (and still hold) the shape very well and allowed me to lace about 5cm smaller than my normal waist (I didn't try lacing tighter because I wanted to feel comfortable) without any problems in the shape. (FYI: The 16 bones in the ribbon corset was arranged in 4 groups of 4 bones in each (back, front and sides), so the bones kinda supported each other as they were to close next to each other). This summer I made an experimental fantasy corset (sorry, this is a bit non-historic but this is here to explain the effect of the plastic boning) with 11 plastic bones and I wore it laced quite tight for one and half days before the bones bent too much and the shape was (temporarily) ruined. The bones were evenly around the corset. If I would have sewn 22 bones (11 groups of bones, 2 bones in each) I think it might have worked better (but that worked weel enough for me, anyway, for that purpose that I had...) Lynoure ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:15:12 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Corset boning > Bronwyn reminded me that dried grasses were used early on. Does >anyone know what type of grass, and where to find it now? I have read references to "reeds" being used in pre 1760 corsets. I am not sure what variety is referred to, but I think this would support the use of chair strapping/caning material. I have a source for caning, email me direct for info. > > Whalebone, as we all know, was most commonly used through many >eras. Since we can't get it now, what is a reasonable substitute? >I've never had the chance to bend a piece of real whalebone to see >how flexible it is. Has anyone else? Museums are rather picky about >letting people bend their artifacts, and an old piece of whalebone >may be less flexible than a new piece. Whalebone (when not fossilized) would have been less flexible than spiral boning, and a little more flexible than spring steel boning. I believe that one of the main interests in whalebones (in the 19th C) was that it was more easily maleable during the steam molding process than steal boning. If you read the advertisments of the period, rusting was a big consideration, whalebone doesn't rust. > One friend has tried cutting strips of bleach bottles to use for >stays. He said they were the same flexibility as whalebone. If that >is the case, would plastic featherboning also be the same as >whalebone? I would not recommend using plastic anything in making a period reproduction corset. Once plastic is bent, it is useless. Also when plastic is warmed (by body heat) it will change shape. The entire use of the corset is to train and maintain a particular shape, plastics are just not practical ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 14:08:55 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: Musings: woodcut and rollers > I have done some research into leather embossing, and found >that a common method of embossing leather at that time was >with large wood, and then metal plates, perhaps rollers. I think the strips were between 4" and 1' wide, as well as being very long (at least 15'). Having worked a lot with leather, I think it would be hard to keep the pattern pressed evenly using a roller that wide. It looked a lot like a paint roller with a single handle. To remain even at that width, I would think a leather roller would need to be more like a rolling pin (so you could apply pressure on each side). It looked like they were laying down a dark pattern on lighter material (paper? fabric?). There was one guy printing/stamping, another guy laying out (for drying?), and there were rolled up spools of it of various widths, looking like narrow wrapping paper rolls. Maybe it was wall paper? I do remember that there was no title or text for that particular woodcut. Bummer. Ah well, just one more mystery....And if anyone comes across it, I would sure like to find it again. Obviously I stared at it a lot at the time, but I would sure like to have another look. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 17:44:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Corset boning If my memory isn't playing me false, Janet Arnold said that reeds were used for boning in corsets. I have the lecture on tape; with enough prodding I can replay it and check it out. Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 12:47:31 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Corset boning | Bronwyn reminded me that dried grasses were used early on. Does | anyone know what type of grass, and where to find it now? These bundles of reeds were called "bents" and came from a type of sea grass. If you live near the ocean, you might be able to find it today. | Chair caning seems to be a suitable material now, but I would not recommend | bamboo. The "boning" needs to be flexible enough to bend without | breaking into pointy-ended pieces! I've seen references to cane used for hoops, but not for corset boning. The one person I know who has used cane to make a farthingale disrecommends it -- she says the cane becomes quite brittle after it has dried and aged. (You must wet the cane in order to shape it.) If brittleness is a problem in a hoop skirt, I think it would be even more of a problem in a corset. | Whalebone, as we all know, was most commonly used through many | eras. Since we can't get it now, what is a reasonable substitute? | I've never had the chance to bend a piece of real whalebone to see | how flexible it is. Has anyone else? The whalebone I have handled is stiffer than the rigilene plastic boning, but not quite as stiff as metal boning. Similar to the polystyrene sheet plastic sold in model shops. | One friend has tried cutting strips of bleach bottles to use for | stays. He said they were the same flexibility as whalebone. If that | is the case, would plastic featherboning also be the same as | whalebone? The problem with featherboning is that it does not retain its own shape, but starts to conform to the body's natural curves, so that after one or two wearings, the body shapes the corset rather than vice versa. Other plastics, such as polystyrene, might have the same problem. There is one other material besides whalebone and bents that was used for early corsets, and it is still readily available today. Wood. The problem with wooden stays is that you would probably have to remove them before you laundered the corset, but the same is true of reeds. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #210 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!