From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #212 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, October 4 1995 Volume 3, Number 212 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: 2 cents worth on bone stays Re: 2 cents worth on bone stays mongol exhibit/book review/cloth of gold Cording as Corset Stiffener dickens faire costumes thanks for chenille info ?-Regency hair, fabric? Re: dickens faire costumes Boning for corsets bone and baleen Re: Boning - plastic Re: Boning - plastic whalebone substitute Dickens Fair Costumes boning substitutes Australian Boning ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:08:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: Re: 2 cents worth on bone stays Your interpretation of "whalebone" to actually BE whalebone is understandable, but in error. Whalebone is actually baleen, "brush-like sheets of a horny material", as my dictionary puts it, which certain types of whales have instead of teeth. They use the baleen to strain food out of the water. So using the ribs of animals wouldn't be a very good simulation (not to mention messy...) Astrida *************************************************************************** Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Oct 95 10:13:11 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) Subject: Re: 2 cents worth on bone stays Bone is primarily calcium, with a mixture of some small amounts of other minerals and collagen. Collagen is soft, spongy, and springy. This is what gives some smaller bones the ability to flex before breaking. Whalebone, and bones of other marine mammals are denser (and heavier) than landgoing mammals. Whalebone is very tough and dense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the "whalebone" used in corsets was actually baleen (the strainer-like "teeth" of baleen whales) which is very different in consistency from actual whale bone. Am I wrong about this? Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 95 09:24:08 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: mongol exhibit/book review/cloth of gold Last week I had the opportunity to visit the exhibit on Mongolia, the Legacy of Chengis Khan at the De Young Museum in Golden Gate Park, San Fransisco, California. Overall the exhibit was disappointing. It consisted mostly of 19th century religious art, more Chinese than Mongolian. It had an excellent display of Masks, and several nice saddles, which were at least an earlier period style. There was a modern Ger (mongolian round tent) with the felt inner lining, set up and furnished, with some examples of several modern caftans, boots, hats, and shoes inside. In the main exhibit, the highlights were several 19th century women's headdresses and two caftans: a long caftan with silk and gold embroidery and couched braid on cloth of gold, and a short unadorned caftan of cloth of gold. Anyone interested in what cloth of gold looks like should get a close look at this piece. In conjunction with the exhibit, some books on Mongolia were for sale. I purchased an excellent book: "Mongol Costumes" by Henny Harald Hansen, published by Thames and Hudson (a British publisher with an branch in New York). ISBN 0-500-01585-6 (240 illust., 57 in color). This book was also available at Moe's Books in Berkeley for $45. I'd buy the book, nix the exhibit. This book is in a series sponsored by the Carlsberg Foundation for Nomad Research Project at the University of Copenhagen. This is full of photographs of a Danish collection from the early 20th cent. with men's, women's, shaman's, and some children's clothing. Lots of caftans, gowns, coats, hats, shoes, headdresses, cloaks, etc. Many are analyzed including the cutting layout due to the author having been trained as a tailor's cutter in a well-known fashion house. Though low on historical detail, I would consider this book a definite "must have" for anyone doing post Mongol invasion (after approx. 13th cent.) middle eastern or Mongolian costuming. The author has also published a book on the history of costumes "Klaeddeddragtens Kavalkade", Copenhagen, 1954 and has written several books based on her fieldwork in the Luristan region of Iran. There are also two books already published in this "nomads" series, "Nomads of Luristan, History, Material Culture, and Pastoralism in Western Iran" by Inge Demant Mortensen (450 illustrations w/50 in color) and "Bedouins of Qatur" by Klaus Ferdinand (453 illust., 65 in color). If anyone has seen the costume or nomads books mentioned, I would appreciate comments to assess whether they are worth persuing for purchase. Future books in the series include books on the Taureg of the Sahara, and the Kreda and Haddad of Chad. Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: 4 Oct 1995 11:14:39 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Cording as Corset Stiffener 10/4/95 11:07 AM Cording as Corset Stiffener? Hmm. I recently learned how to do finger woven cords, using cotton Cro-Sheen, and have been very pleased with the results I'm getting. I've been using two or three colors, depending on the pattern, and making drawstrings for small belt pouches. Perhaps finger weaving would be a good way to get the proper diameter/size cord for other purposes as well. Carole Newson-Smith (SCA: Cordelia Toser) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 12:14:27 -0700 From: bino@ella.mills.edu (Kendra VanCleave) Subject: dickens faire costumes hello! i'm planning on working at the dickens faire in san francisco this year, and as i've only attended the faire once years and years ago (back when i had no idea what was accurate), i was wondering if anyone on this list could give me some help as to what is approvable and what is not. i've had lots of experience with victorian costuming, but i'm not even sure of what decade the dickens faire is portraying; and i don't want to make a dress that's not approvable! also, can anyone give me some tips for dressing for the weather? i've heard it's *very* cold on the pier, and i really don't want to freeze to death. thanks for your help! Kendra Van Cleave bino@ella.mills.edu ------------------------------ Date: 04 Oct 1995 15:29:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: thanks for chenille info ?-Regency hair, fabric? I would like to thank Kat, Chris and CJC (I hope I haven't forgotten anyone) for the source (Mindy's) for chenille floss. I have two more questions to present to your collective knowledge! In the "Memoirs of Harriette Wilson" she briefly describes her gown as "lamas on gauze". I've checked a lot of fabric sources, including Textiles in America, and "lamas" just doesn't show up. Oh, the "Memoirs" cover the early 19th c. I've also been reading Richardson's "The Canadian Brothers" which takes place during the War of 1812. Richardson wrote the novel much later, but he was a "Gentleman Volunteer" at the age of 16 and knew Brock, Tecumseh and many other figures. It's possible that the fashions of a later period interposed in his novel, but he does mention that his villianess, Matilda Montgomery, wore her hair in "Grecian bands" across her brows. Can anyone describe what the "grecian band" would have looked like? Braids? Twists? Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:15:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: dickens faire costumes > had no idea what was accurate), i was wondering if anyone on this list could > give me some help as to what is approvable and what is not. i've had lots > of experience with victorian costuming, but i'm not even sure of what decade > the dickens faire is portraying; and i don't want to make a dress that's not > approvable! Call and ask. I've seen them decide on every year from about 1855 to 1870 at one time or another, plus the usual Faire routine of deciding X is acceptable but Y isn't, based less on history than someone's prejudices. They also go through periods of thinking hoops are good and others of thinking they take up to much room. I've gone in as Sarah Bernhardt at about 1890 (as a paying customer) and gotten complements from the costume staff, too. > also, can anyone give me some tips for dressing for the weather? > i've heard it's *very* cold on the pier, and i really don't want to freeze > to death. Well, the Pier isn't as bad as the site they tried one year in Sacramento, but it can get chilly. I tend to wear silk long undies under my corset, drawer and petticoats (and I wear a petty-coat UNDER hoops if that's what I'm wearing). Feet are the biggest problem (the floor wicks heat away like you wouldn't believe, what with cold air and water below) --make sure you have shoes in which you can fit warm socks into and still have enough space to let the blood get down to your toes. Since the ambiance is "outside" for the most part you should wear a hat and gloves unless unless you are working one of "inside" areas such as a booth, Fizzywig's Party or Mad Sal's (and gloves at any of those unless it's "your house") which is a good think, warmth-wise. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:32:03 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Boning for corsets Les wrote, > Whalebone, and bones of other marine mammals are denser (and heavier) than > landgoing mammals. Whalebone is very tough and dense. > Try using a flat rib of something like a cow or even deer, > and with some prior shaping, soak it or lightly boil the bone in vinegar. I > suggest doing it outside. Boil on several occasions, for short periods of > time until it gets springy enough for your preferences and then stop. Whalebone refers to baleen, not the whale's skeleton. I've never heard of skeleton bones being used for corsets. While this is interesting speculation, I think it's too much work for an incorrect corset. I have a fan made of bone, probably cow. The slats would be far to brittle to hold up in a corset. (which would change if boiled as Les described.) It was made to resemble ivory. Thanks to all who have handled baleen & described its properties! I now understand that steel stays, particularly the spirals, are fairly close to baleen. -Carol ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:30:46 -0400 From: lrp@westol.com Subject: bone and baleen My mailbox has been swamped with notes telling me that whalebone and baleen are different things, and that baleen is used for corest stiffeners. Ok.. Baleen comes in plates of variable length and may be several feet long. You can't get it short of killing Moby Dick and having Green Peace on your case. It is not on the open market in the US of A. So, you will have probably have to settle for a substitute. However, various things can be used as stays, and have been. My original "two cents worth" was simply a means of lwetting people know that bone can be softened with the use of vinegar, to the point that it will be flexible. Yes, it is messy if you get it fresh. However, it can be easily flensed. (Don't even think about what it takes to get leather for shoes.) Horn as a substitute is possible, if you live somewhere exotic enough to find horn that is large enough to use. However, if you have ever tried working horn, you'll know that it can really stink and that the dust it creates is a nuisance. Les ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:40:23 +1000 From: bclarke1@metz.une.edu.au (Bronwyn Clarke) Subject: Re: Boning - plastic Gillian Richards wrote: > My 1908-style (pretty pink with lace) corset had strong plastic > bones but they snapped, so I replaced them with double-layers of the > Rigilene boning. ...(stuff deleted)... Dammit - I will just have to >mail-order from the > States - unless someone knows an Australian supplier of steel > boning? > Gillian and other Australians - isn't it frustrating??? All these great references to the wonderful things that can be gotten on the other side of the world! I have recently made my first corset - mid 18 century, based on the pattern in Jean Hunnisett's book. Costuming supplies are very thin on the ground in rural Armidale, so I ended up using a polypropelene boning that originally came in a casing. There were two different brands, Birch and another. It varied from $4-$5 per metre, so was pretty expensive, particularly since I discarded the casing and inserted the 'bones' into channels sewn into the corset. However, so far so good, it seems to have worked quite OK, much better than my early experiments with Rigilene. The bones are quite close together, so it is fairly stiff although there is some flexibility. I've found it quite comfortable to wear, except that I made it a little long in the waist, so it pushes up a little (a learning experience :-)) The sad part of the story is that I made the entire outfit - 1740's mantua as well as the corset (although I improvised on the petticoat) - to wear to a Scottish Country Dance Ball in Newcastle in August, managed to get it pretty darn close to finished in time (a minor miracle in itself), and then my SO came down with a very serious 'flu bug, and we didn't go! Opportunites to wear 18C gowns are quite rare around here, so it might have to wait a while before I get a real chance to wear it. So, it decorates my sewing room, and no-one apart from my SO and the cleaning lady have even seen it yet...:-( Bronwyn Clarke, Assistant General Staff Development Officer, Personnel Services, University of New England, ARMIDALE NSW 2351, AUSTRALIA email: bclarke1@metz.une.edu.au Phone: (067) 733431 Fax (067) 733721 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:16:43 +1000 (EST) From: Fiona Thorne Subject: Re: Boning - plastic On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Bronwyn Clarke wrote: > Gillian Richards wrote: > > > My 1908-style (pretty pink with lace) corset had strong plastic > > bones but they snapped, so I replaced them with double-layers of the > > Rigilene boning. ...(stuff deleted)... Dammit - I will just have to > >mail-order from the > > States - unless someone knows an Australian supplier of steel > > boning? > > > > Gillian and other Australians - isn't it frustrating??? All these great > references to the wonderful things that can be gotten on the other side of > the world! Perhaps one of us Australians should ring BHP direct and ask for them to do some custom steel. :-) A little more seriously, would it be possible to get the technical specs for steel boning (rather than general descriptions) and approach the steel mills to find out if they do anything like it? Presumably it is a matter of defining weight, diameter, and strength? Fiona - -------------------------------------------------------------- Fiona Thorne Masters Student, University of Technology, Sydney (Australia) fthorne@socs.uts.edu.au or Fiona_E._Thorne@aapda.com.au http://linus.socs.uts.edu.au/~fthorne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 95 21:57:20 CST From: "nelso230@maroon.tc.umn.edu" Subject: whalebone substitute Since the subject of boning and specifically whalebone substitutes has come up, I thought it might be timely to recover a message from Joan McTeer regarding her experiments with synthetics. (I haven't seen Joan's name appearing here for quite some time. I think she may have dropped out.) Here goes: Subject: Re: Boning Date: 94-11-28 21:58:06 EST From: JPMcTeer@aol.com To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu In the mid-70's I made a twill corset from the 1780's "half-boned stays" pattern in 'Corsets and Crinolines.' I used whalebone for most of the boning. The stock I had was about 3/8" thick. From actual mid 18thC corsets I have seen, this was an appropriate thickness. Whalebone has wonderful properties. It can be : 1) molded by the heat and moisture of the body (or steam iron) to fit the individual; 2)bent in two planes at once; 3)cut and shaped with scissors or knives 4) shaped on the ends with nail files. Recently, I have been experimenting with plastics to get these same properties. I have cut various sheet plastics into "bones" with a paper cutter, and then used scissors and nail files to get the length and smooth ends I needed. The best plastics I have tried so far are high density polyethylene and high density polypropylene. For pre-19thC, I suggest .093 thickness (3/32"). For mid-19thC and later, I would go to .080 or .060(1/16"). All of these plastics are less supportive than spring steels but more supportive than plastic featherboning or Rigilene (of equivalent width). If the sewer wants to avoid having to locate and trim spring steels, natural nylon of .060 thickness is somewhat stiffer than steel and excellent for the boning near lacing eyelets. The drawback with nylon is that it will crack off if subjected to a sharp bend (i.e., over the hips in the 1880's). In Minneapolis, I purchase my plastics from Cadillac Plastic as scraps cut to 24" strips to fit in my paper cutter. Cadillac has stores around the country. After doing many periods of boned garments for the theater, I have discovered that the cut of the corset *and* the placement of bones both have to be accurate before an authentic-looking silhouette can be achieved. Research and a good understanding of the ideal body of the period are required. Joan P. McTeer (new to the net but worked with boned garments for many years) Bill Nelson (also BILLinMN@aol.com) Minneapolis, MN USA *************************************************************************** "This country has come to feel the same when congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer." --Will Rogers *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:51:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Elizabeth Fox Subject: Dickens Fair Costumes I've worked Dickens Fair for many years while it was still in San Francisco. The years that it covers are 1850 - 1872, the latter because that was when hoops went out. (However, the Queen is portrayed as the white haired matriarch on the gin bottle, because that's what people recognize.) As with most of these type of things, your first move is to figure out what class you are, and plan accordingly. An upper or middle class lady would have hoops, a lower class one would just have lots of petticoats. In years past they were very strict about everyone having a hat (remember, although you're inside a warehouse, you're suposed to be outside in the streets of London unless you are inside a shop) and about women not running around outside of Fezziwig's in ball gowns. There was also a move to clamp down on very fancy or revealing ball gowns, since those weren't really what Fezziwig's employees would have worn. You're right that it can get very cold on the pier. The best thing I ever did was to invest in silk long underwear from Winter Silks. It's thin enough to wear under anything and keeps one toasty warm. Remember, under hoops you'd be wearing pantaloons (I used modified women's pajama bottoms) and underpants, so you're pretty uninsulated unless you have something else under your pantaloons. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 00:52:48 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: boning substitutes I never realized the problem of supply in Australia. Before I found a source for steel boning that I could easily access, I had asked my boyfriend's father if he had any packing strapping. Later he found me some. His strapping is stainless steel, so would resist rusting. I found it to be a bit sturdier than the steel boning I used, probebly because it was also wider. However, if you don't have access to steel boning, this is probebly the best substitute I have seen. Some tool dip for the ends, and you would have a really sturdy but smooth-lined corset. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 13:44:14 +1000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Australian Boning RE: Sources of boning in Australia. Firstly, my apologies to all the other countries having to read this, but for us it sort of makes up for constantly reading about delectable museums in Washington and real castle re-enactments in Devon. (envy, envy, envy) I was told that the type of steel used to make big springs was the sort to get for corsets, so approached Lovell's springs. Don't do this by phone - they don't understand you!. I am prepared to try again, as well as asking advice from TAFE engineering and Manufacturing teachers about the subject so that I know what it is I have to ask for. But I would appreciate advice/details/needs/other stuff from any other Australian Lurkers and writers out there. (Funny how many have suddenly turned up - hi all) Failing that, the Hardwarehouse at Ashfield's lunmber section is about to get someone scrounging for strapping. PS I know a shop in Sydney that imports the REAL things - finished Victorian-style corsets, made by a factory in England that just hasn't stopped for the last 100 years - they're from $145 (Petersham Ribbon) then for full ones start at about $175 each (Aus dollars) and they are happy to talk on the phone/accept orders/etc. Sydney Phone Number: (02) 361 6367. Usual disclaimers - I passed them one day, browsed and have been praying for a windfall ever since! They use spiral steels. Now if only I can get my act together and get a catalogue from Amazon . . . GIllian + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 (space for ASCII | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au picture when I | | "The Midnight Fox", "Mummy" find the time!) | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #212 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!