From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #213 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, October 5 1995 Volume 3, Number 213 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: 2 cents worth on bone stays Re: Corset boning Re: Whales RE: 2 cents worth on bone stays access RE: Coloured Leather RE: Coloured Leather Re: 2 cents worth on bone stays Corset Boning Re: Corset boning Re: Corset boning Australian corset steel Re: Corset Boning Adgemi Oglan Straw Embroidery Corset supplies dicken's faire costuems ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 19:36:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: 2 cents worth on bone stays On Wed, 4 Oct 1995 lrp@westol.com wrote: > Bone is primarily calcium, with a mixture of some small amounts of other > minerals and collagen. Collagen is soft, spongy, and springy. This is what > gives some smaller bones the ability to flex before breaking. > > Whalebone, and bones of other marine mammals are denser (and heavier) than > landgoing mammals. Whalebone is very tough and dense. It is worth pointing out that "whalebone", despite its name, is _not_ a form of bone. It's more akin to horn and fingernails in substance. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:33:22 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Corset boning This is my third attempt to send the second half of my original post. Hopefully it goes through this time! > > I also heard that a set of stays half-boned (a space between >>each bone, or stay) with metal stays would work the same as a set >>fully-boned (stays right next to each other with only one row of >>stitching between them) with whalebone. > >I believe the two main considerations in making a corset are: a good >pattern and quality materials. If you start with a good pattern, it will >guide just where and how much boning you will need. If you look at "real" >corsets (I have had the good fortune to examine many period corsets, and I >personally own a few), they are far less boned and less stiff than one >would assume. They are just VERY well made. > >> Corsets, stays, and jumps were also stiffened with cording. Some >>19thC corsets (particularly 1820 - 1870) had sections of cording >>between the metal stays. > >Someof the period corsets in my collection are stiffened with cording. >The cording is TINY and very stiff. It is almost like thick kite string >or the stuff we sew up large roasts with. I have found a cotton >equivalent, although it is a little thicker, and not stiff. I am working >with ways to stiff the cord but not use anything that will deteriorate >when warm and moist. Still working on it..... > >Erin Moody >erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 95 09:56:41 BST From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: Whales > Baleen comes in plates of variable length and may be several feet long. You > can't get it short of killing Moby Dick and having Green Peace on your case. Wasn't Moby Dick a sperm whale? (It's a long time since I read the book). Sperm whales are toothed whales not baleen whales. Have whale teeth ever been used in costume? (Sailors buttons?). I guess anything acceptable as elephant ivory would work for whale teeth if necessary. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 95 10:52:07 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: 2 cents worth on bone stays | Whalebone, and bones of other marine mammals are denser (and heavier) than | landgoing mammals. Whalebone is very tough and dense. "Whalebone" is not bone. It is baleen, the tough, horny substance that forms the plates used by filter-feeding (baleen) whales to strain plankton from seawater. It is not composed of calcium, like real bone. It is protein -- keratin. This is the same substance that makes up your hair and nails. The rib of a cow will never produce anything remotely similar to whalebone, no matter how you boil or pickle it. Cow horn, on the other hand, would be a reasonable approximation, if you had the skill and the patience to whittle it into the right shape. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:24:29 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: access Members of the List: Does anyone out there have a reader's card from the Folger? I have one, but I am now on the West Coast. I will be lecturing there possibly in the Spring, and I can access some material then, but I would like to know if anyone else has priveledges there? We could be looking some of this stuff up (incorporated with other legitimate study of course) for each other.... I know I have seen what Julie describes but I cant remember where either. I can look it up in the original Amman's at the Folger, but perhaps someone else is doing research there in the meantime? Also some of the Wardrobe items we have been talking about here...... >>Erin asked: Julie, are you talking about the woodcut from Jost >>Amman? Is it in the Book of Trades? > >No its not in there. It was in some other book, but I could swear >it was by Jost Amman. I've looked through my Book of Trades >several times (rather tattered at this point), but it isn't there. It is >not in any of my woodcut books, zeroxes, art books, or Ren. >military books (and my library is pretty extensive on this period). >It was a very interesting woodcut though and I would really like a >copy. Perhaps it was in a book on Printing? Hmmm..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:38:48 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: RE: Coloured Leather On Tue, 3 Oct 95 Julie Adams wrote: ... >Leather can be dyed with substances which do not hold well on >fabric, and I believe some are poisonous when worn against the >skin (due to the use of peat, lampblack, and lead). A true black is Certainly lead derivatives, but peat and lampblack? Peat is a low-grade coal, and lampblack is soot from burning fats (tallow candles), so that both are principally carbon. Perhaps iron dyes might harm the skin as well; I know they eventually deteriorate paper, but the effect may be too slight to harm skin. ... >Leather dye can run when damp, or when wet from acidic liquids, >such as sweat or lemonade. Leather dye is difficult to impossible >to get out of some fabrics. Leather dye can also stain human skin Just a tip--Tandy leather dyes (and probably many others of similar nature) are soluble in alcohol. Soaking most clothes in isopropyl has little to no effect on the desired dyes (always test first!), and can get out even ground in, sweat-impregnated Tandy red leather dye from white favours. Now how would a simple squire of the SCA learn this, you might well ask?! ;{) | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Who else would put French seams in 8-oz. leather?" /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 95 08:46:10 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: Coloured Leather > due to the use of peat, lampblack, and lead Sorry to miswrite, I was meaning those as some examples of substances that *were* used historically to dye leather black, not that all those substances are poisonous....I am sure there are experts out there that can give us more examples of actual leather dye recipes. Thanks for the alcohol tip Joe. Another note on period leatherwork, many of the original boots and saddlery I have seen has had natural colored linings using a very thin leather or cloth. This lining was not a universal feature for all leatherwork, but was possibly used to help prevent dye stains, particularly in high grade leather goods. Most modern saddles also have this for this same reason.-- julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 12:55:56 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: 2 cents worth on bone stays Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the "whalebone" > used in corsets was actually baleen (the strainer-like > "teeth" of baleen whales) which is very different in > consistency from actual whale bone. Am I wrong about this? > > Loren Dearborn > ldearborn@calacademy.org Loren, you are correct. Whale"bone" is a misnomer. Erin Moody ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:29:22 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Corset Boning Is someone from Raiments or any other corset bone supplier reading the file? I wonder if you could address the problems of the corsetmakers outside the US. Can you handle international orders? Another (non-period) boning trick: Find a package of "Horsehair Braid". It's a flat braid made of nylon, about 1-1/2" wide. Since it's a braid, when you pull on the end it will get longer, narrower, and denser. Cut a piece (in it's relaxed state) to the length you need, +2". Take another piece, pull it long, and zig-zag it on top of the first piece. Repeat with several layers until you get the desired thickness. (about 2 - 5 layers.) If you need several pieces, stitch up a long length like this and then cut it into the pieces needed. The extra 2" will be trimmed off the ends; it tends to fan out. You will end up with 1/2" of layers in the middle, and 1/2" of single layer on each side. It's very easy to stitch through the single layer sides. Be sure to encase the ends in fabric so the nylon thread doesn't poke through. This is not stiff enough for a corset, but it's useful to give shape to a bodice going over a corset. (The real things frequently had boning on the seams.) I used it on the placket of an 1860's ballgown. The single layer edge is loosely woven enough to stitch an eyelet through without cutting! I tried weed whacker cord on a placket once, but didn't like the effect. The silk fabric slipped on the cord. Do people glue the cord in place, or is there another trick to it? -Carol Kocian ckocian@epe.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:08:29 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Re: Corset boning Glenna sent this note to me privately, but then siad I could post it to the file for everyone's info. - ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 17:44:49 -0700 From: gwjchris@ix.netcom.com (Glenna and Bill Christen ) Subject: Re: Corset boning To: "Carol Kocian" Having had a chance to handle real whale bone I can assure you it is nothing like plastic boning. Plastic boning is fine if it will not take any real stress and won't get very warm or bend much at all. That pretty well leaves out any corset I'd ever need. Mid 19th Cent. corsets only have 8 to 12 0r 14 bones depending on the size of the woman (and the ratio of uncorseted size to compressed size?) Granted I didn't stress the whale bone I had my hands on once I realised what I had, but even at 130 odd years old (based on the style of bodice it was in) the flexibility was comparable to metal corset stays available now only thicker. I've never heard of whale bone splintering. Considering the "strain" the whale put on the "bones" when they were still it its mouth, I think they were probably about as flexible when they were new. Glenna Jo Christen gwjchris@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:32:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Tracy Miller Subject: Re: Corset boning On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Kimberly Smay wrote: > eliminating the "I can't find it here" arguement. I know Richard the > Thread in L.A. has it as does at least one of the big N.Y. mailorder > firms(Green an Something, I think). > Richard the Thread > Dept. SN > 1433 N Orange Grove > Hollywood, Ca 90046 > (800)621-0849 > I tried calling, but the number is not in service. Could there be a typo? Thanks, Tracy ------------------------------ Date: 06 Oct 95 08:25:00 EDT From: AWILSON%ABRSCBR.ANCA@roris.erin.gov.au (Wilson, Annette) Subject: Australian corset steel To the Australian subscribers to this list. Yes, there is a source of corset boning in Australia. Terry Brown (Mistress Myfanwy ferch Daffyd for those in the SCA) in Adelaide imports the flat steel bones in two widths, quarter and half inch. She didn't have spiral boning when last I saw her, but maybe if enough people wanted it... In fact I don't know whether she has any boning in stock at the moment, but you can phone her. She runs a small business - braids, buttons, bits and pieces (incl. crinoline steel I think) - and does do mail order. Contact details are- Terry Brown. Business address Kool 4 Kats, 54 Pultney St, Adelaide 5000 ph. 08 223 5614. Good luck Annette Wilson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 16:25:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Corset Boning > I tried weed whacker cord on a placket once, but didn't like the > effect. The silk fabric slipped on the cord. Do people glue the cord > in place, or is there another trick to it? I've only tried it with cotton, and it worked ok. I tend to sew this sort of thing fairly slowly with the fabric pulled on both sides of the needle. Threads just had a really interesting article on starching silk to control the swidge factor for slippery fabrics. I haven't tried yet, but it sounds really neat. That might help (certainly better than glue, which will probably bleed through). (On rereading this I'm not sure that you were talking about "slipping" as in "while sewing"--If you mean slipping on the cord once it's sewn--again, I used cotton, and I guess it was stiff enough to stay put. Also, I anchored the cord top and bottom pretty well.0 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 95 11:15:00 EST From: "Hicks, Melissa" Subject: Adgemi Oglan Greetings all, I have request for the more knowledgeable of you on this list. (By this I mean more knowledgeable than me, which on this subject isn't difficult) My Fiancee (I got engaged on the weekend) would like to create an Adgemi Oglan costume for an event later this year. The only source he currently has for this costume contains line drawing only. Could someone please point him/us towards some primary source material ?? I enclose Craig's request: Thank you in advance Melissa mah@amsa.gov.au =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Help? I urgently need to find sources and information on the uniform of a Trainee Janissary (Elite Turkish Military Order) also known as an "Adgemi Oglan". I have one source (Osprey Men-at-Arm's: Armies of the Ottoman Turks) only and really need some more. Can any body help this poor boy? Craig Jones SCA Drake Morgan. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Oct 1995 09:36:09 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Straw Embroidery For the person who asked about straw embroidery, here is a reference I serendipitously picked up from the RILA database: Murray, Anne Wood. Straw embroidery on costume, Waffen- und Kost=FCmkunde XX/2 (1978). 95-106 Year of publication 1978 Format 11 illustrations Language of text English I haven't seen this article, so I can't comment on how useful it may or may not be. Sarah **************************************************************************** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 18:58:50 -0700 From: Allan Terry Subject: Corset supplies I just got the new Greenberg & Hammer catalog and it seems they sell overseas, since it says "call for any shipments for foreign countries." They have every type of commercially available corset boning and hoop wire I know of, plus corset clasps, lacing tips, U-tips for hoop wire, the coating you dip steel boning in, and lots of other sewing and tailoring supplies. Their prices are very good. Their address and phone numbers are: Greenberg & Hammer 24 West 57th St. New York, NY 10019-3918 (212) 246-2835 (212) 246-2836 (212) 246-2467 (800) 955-5135 FAX (212) 765-8475 Hope this helps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 19:21:07 -0700 From: bino@ella.mills.edu (Kendra VanCleave) Subject: dicken's faire costuems thanks to everyone who posted or mailed me about dickens faire costumes! i still have some specific questions...i'm going to be playin÷g one of the ladies in waiting ('friends of the princesses'), so i'll be making an upper class costume. i have a skirt from a 2 part ball gown (purple moire with black lace trim) and i'm going to be making a new bodice for it. anyways, these are my questions: 1) do i need to have a corset? can i get by with just a longline bra? 2) what should i do about hats? i don't have any sort of victorian bonnet, and i don't really want to spend a lot of money on it. do you have any recommendations? 3) can i do pagoda sleeves (the bell sleeves w/ undersleeves)? i'm not quite sure which decade those are. 4) are there any specifics which the costume dept. at dickens is anal about? ie colors, fabrics, accessories, etc. taht i need to know about. 5) how period do i need to be about shoes? 6) what sort of shawls are period? i'd like to just buy something if i can...anything i should look for? thanks again for everyone's help! Kendra Van Cleave bino@ella.mills.edu ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #213 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!