From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #215 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, October 9 1995 Volume 3, Number 215 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Yet Another Corset Query male fashion in late middle ages Raiments and Grommeting RE: male fashion in late middle ages Re: Yet Another Corset Query Romanov exhibit Re: RE: Coloured Leather Re: Straw Embriodery and Thai Silk Coloured Leather: The Charcoal Party Re: Straw Embriodery and Thai Silk Re: Romanov exhibit Re: Stinky Leather MOMCC Conference ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 09:34:44 -0400 From: NeaDods@aol.com Subject: Re: Yet Another Corset Query Historically accurate corset patterns can be found from the following sources: Amazon Drygoods Raiments Catalog Past Patterns Catalog and (I think) Heidi's Pages & Petticoats Most of these companies advertise in the back of Threads Magazine; if you can't find a Threads, email me & I'll pass the info on. Nea neadods@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:17:10 MET-1METDST From: "ROB BOER" Subject: male fashion in late middle ages Hallo, I am particularly interested in male fashion of before around 1500. (I have not been on this discussion list very long yet, therefore I don't know if this has been discussed before time and again, if so please excuse me.) My interest is in making clothes for use by myself, not for the theatre. To my impression by the end of the middle ages, male fashion is becoming very elaborate both for making the clothes as well as for wearing them. From paintings and from pictures in the rare books on fashion that I come accross I fancy quite a lot of male fashion of the late middle ages. I would like to make something like that for wearing myself, either reproduced from historic examples or inspired by these. Also from a recent visit to the Victoria and Albert museum in London, I understand that very little of secular clothing from that time has been preserved, therefore that there maybe very little literature on it. Nevertheless I would like to ask if any of you could help me by references to literature on the subject and/or by sharing your knowledge about the subject and/or discussing it with me. For example I am interested in the following: - - On numerous paintings, men seem to be wearing completely tight pants/hosen. Moreover if there is a sign of seems, there appears to be but one on the back of the leg. I very much wonder how this can be achieved without use of modern elastic fibres or knitted fabric. - - The hosen are supposed to be really separate for the two legs, only when the tunic becomes short enough, the front is covered with a triangular cod piece. I have seen pictures where that is attached to the hosen with bow-knots at the top two angles, but how is the bottom angle attached? And how is the rear part of the hosen arranged? - - Is the severe pleating of garments on paintings a good representation of reality, or would clothes in real life be not so stiff? - - I have seen mentioned that around the end of the middle ages, lots of padding was applied in clothes. However male figure appears to be quite thin. That seems contradictory to me. - - What material were shoes made of? Rob Boer boer@mgz.fgg.eur.nl ------------------------------ Date: 09 Oct 95 02:53:28 EDT From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Raiments and Grommeting On: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 Kathleen Leggat posted: > Gary from Raiments, > > Please give us your email and snail mail addresses and telephone >numbers. I, personally, would love a catalog. > > Thank you. > > Kathleen (Catriona) Glad to do so! Raiments PO Box 93095 Pasadena, CA 91109 818-585-2994 phone Tues-Fri 10AM-5PM (for a real person - otherwise you risk getting the answering machine.) 818-432-4530 FAX (24 hours) email Compuserve 72437,674; INTERNET 72437,674@compuserve.com We also just opened a retail store in Pasadena at 3749 E Colorado Blvd. Store hours are: Tues, Wed, Fri 10AM-5:30 PM, Thurs 10AM-7:30PM, Sat 11AM-4PM. On grommeting - We and Lacis sell grommets, and we sell the good quality Osborne grommet kits as well. (I don't know whether Lacis does, but they could certainly get them.) We have 0 and 00 (these are the two most common sizes for corsets, bodices, dresses, etc.) in black, nickel, and brass. (These are coated, not painted.) You must have a decent grommet setter or you will ruin even the coated grommets. The Dritz stuff is absolutely ... Well, I don't use those words on public forums. BTW, eyelets do not have the washer parts. A grommet is a 2-part fastener, with the fabric pinched between the layers to provide the strength characteristic of a grommet. An eyelet is a single flared tube, and it is designed to split into claws which grab the fabric and crush it. The grommet is far stronger and smoother (important for lacings, etc.) The eyelets you see in sneakers, etc. are sized carefully and placed by a large machine which is carefully designed to swage them. I still pull the cursed things out. Also, eyelets are painted, and most grommets are coated/plated. When grommeting, put a 1 inch or so wooden block under the anvil. Using a mallet with a plastic or leather face (not a hammer - steel chips can fly off the facing and slash your eyeball) set the grommet with a couple of light taps, followed by about 6 firmer thwacks. You can tell when it is set when the washer dishes in to match the profile of the base of the flared tube portion. The result should be a smooth roll of the tube down onto the washer, with no metal wrinkling, no sharp edges, and no pulling of the fabric. Note that you have to punch the right size holes for the grommets, preferably using a sharp punch (like Tandy or Osborne sell.) Gary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 09:34:57 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: male fashion in late middle ages LONG: Rob Boer asks: On hosen. >Moreover if there is a sign of seems, there appears to be but >one on the back of the leg. I very much wonder how this can be >achieved without use of modern elastic fibres or knitted fabric. -- You can use woven fabric and cut it on a bias. While I normally draft my own patterns, I am told Medieval Miscellainia patterns provides a pattern for hose which provides good results. I normally cut and sew a very long tube for each leg. While the hose are still inside out, try each leg on and pin and mark seams to fit, sew and turn. Then fit the crotch. Hose must be fitted to an individual's leg to fit well, but a pattern can provide guidelines. Knitted hose are period, and I have seen very good representations of striped knitted hose made by using "well-selected" T-shirt knitted stripes running vertically up the leg. While cotton spandex can be used to provide a 4-way stretch, I prefer a more hand-knitted look, which can be found if one digs around, but you will probably find 2-way stretch only in this fabric. Hose was and can also be made of leather, but does seem to get baggy after a while, especially around joints. If you slash leather, you need to allow for stretch and do not slash too close to seams. Also I recommend interlining it with a heavy cloth stabilizer, and laying the stretchy grain length-wise vs. horizontal. You will still get stretch. Leather works best as outerwear, either as upper hosen, or very long boots. >The hosen are supposed to be really separate for the two legs, >..... but how is the bottom angle attached? And how is the rear ?part of the hosen arranged? - -- for an example of one type of cod-piece attachment, though of later period, in Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion, 1560-16.?", the Pluderhose seat and codpiece patterns can be used as examples of how they attach. The codpiece fabric actually provides width between the legs which does aid in not splitting out the crotch seams. People in the Southern Renaissance Military Society have used a modification of the pluderhose patterns to do hose which look quite nice by changing the seams to run up the back of the leg to the center of each "cheek", then angling the seam in to the back hip point (approx. 2" from center back). Hose normally retain a center back seam. >Is the severe pleating of garments on paintings a good >representation of reality, or would clothes in real life be not so >stiff? If you are talking about the gowns and coats with vertical organ-pipe pleats, I believe that they were that stiff. Those gowns are cut in a circle and the pleats are set onto another under garment, or set with stay tapes. I have made these "perfect pleats" on German Waffenrocks, and they do require a very stiff underlining of your fashion fabric and no padding was required. In Blanche Paynes "A History of Costume", FIRST Edition only, examples of how these pleats are done are shown on bases. Same principle, though different garment. >I have seen mentioned that around the end of the middle ages, >lots of padding was applied in clothes. However male figure >appears to be quite thin. That seems contradictory to me. Theorizing here: I believe many men's fashions of the early eras may often be related to the type of warfare, armor, and the weaponry that was popular in their era. When someone decided that large round-breasted breastplates deflect blows better, armor changed, and maybe the styles mimic that. Men in armor and gambesons look heavy and padded, so maybe they are all looking like macho chivalric guys, sort of the equivalent of when Indian Jones clothing became popular shortly after the movie...But seriously, heavily lined stiff clothing is almost armor in itself. >What material were shoes made of? - --Leather or cloth Good Luck, --Julie Adams julie_adams@corp.cubic.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:29:05 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Yet Another Corset Query Juliana said: My >dilemma is this: what and where is the best pattern I can use? I can work >from an illustration, but a pattern would be a bonus. If it matters, my >natural waist = 31 in. / bust = 39 in. >Thanks (in advance), >Juliana Quartaroli For ready made patterns, I prefer Past Patterns. You would have to select the correct style for the period you are portraying. However, the construction instructions leave alot to be desired. If you let me know which period you are going for, I can tell you the pitfalls for the corresponding pattern. What I recommend: from the pattern, make a mock up corset out of construction/butcher paper or grocery paper bags. Use masking tape to put it together. Fit this to your figure, it will give you an idea of how you will need to adjust, and how much fabric you really need. I like paper because it is more similar (rigid) to how a corset should be fit to you than making a muslin drape. I use this technique for my corset workshops and my custom fittings. Also, coutil is very expensive and you should not overpurchase your fabric if you don't have to. Again, there are some serious problems with every commercial corset pattern I have tried (I have my own now), better to work the bugs out before you put alot of time and money into your corset. Erin Moody ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Oct 95 09:35 CDT From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Romanov exhibit This weekend I attended an exhibit entitled "Treasures of the Czars" held in Topeka, Kansas at the Kansas International Museum. The exhibit runs until December 31, at which time it will return to Russia. Many of the items have never been outside the Kremlin. If you have any interest in Russian nobility in the 17th-19th centuries (technically 1613-1917, but some 16th century items in exhibit) I would HIGHLY recommend this exhibit. They had some clothing, other textiles, paintings, and quite a bit of metal work. Among the clothing is: 17th century dalmatic State robe of Peter the Great 17th century caftan 17th century terlik (court uniform) - one of 4 in existence 17th century leather boots decorated with pearls Coronation robe and dress from 1856 Coronation uniform, 1856 Coronation outfit for Herald, 1896 Caftan and camisole of Peter II, 1727-30 Masquerade costume of futere Catherine I, early 18th century Costumes form the Order of St. Andrew the First Called, 1797 Fashion doll from late 18th century wearing costume of Order of St. Catherine Masquerade costume of Nicholas II, 1903 There is an exhibition book. Treasures of the Czars from the State Museums of the Moscow Kremlin / presented by Kansas International Museum, Topeka, Kansas. London : Booth-Clibborn, 1995. ISBN 1-8739-6886-8 ****************************** Wendy Robertson Serials Cataloging University of Iowa (319) 335-5894 wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:04:10 -0400 From: GDresback@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: Coloured Leather Hi all, I have a leather question that is sort of vexing me myself. I recently got some Turkish leather M1909 ammo pouches, which are a really awful, stinking leather, very light in color, and I need to dye them or darken them with oil somehow, to make them a dark, rich brown color, like German leather pouches, straps, etc. I have been soaking them in cold water and Dawn(tm) dishwashing detergent, then spraying them down with water, in order to reduce the awful stench. I cannot tell what the smell is, I have never smelled anything like it. When they dry, most are a very light yellow-tan, while some parts or entire pouches are a odd greenish-tan cast. These different leathers react differently when oiled with neatsfoot oil, and I am trying some mink oil in order to darken them, but it doesn't seem to give fast results. Can anyone on the list help me? I need some ideas on how to get these things an even dark brown. Dye would be fine, except that I know little about it. What is the best type? And can I make an authentic one myself? (For the WWI era) Are the Kiwi products any good? Thanks! Glen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:54:58 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Straw Embriodery and Thai Silk Christy wrote: >Second, I am interested in 16th century straw embroidery. I understand that >Queen Elizabeth had a gown embroidered with straw. I have seen "sales mens >sample books" from later periods that show more than 1500 types of lace and >bandings for clothing and hatmaking, done with straw threads. I know these >threads were made by splitting wheat and rye stalks and the spinning them >into thread. These threads were then woven into lace simular to bobbin lace, >or crocheted (sp?) into lace and borders. Now, I would like more information >on the earlier straw embroidery and beading. I am curious about this post. I cannot find a reference to straw embroidery in any of my historical embroidery books, or my costume books that cover the 16thC. Where did you get the information from? Am I missing something? Did you find a 16thC reference, or are you asking for one? Erin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:04:14 -0400 From: GDresback@aol.com Subject: Coloured Leather: The Charcoal Party After reading the last post on this, I decided to try an experiment. I had a new, light colored WWI repro German belt, and wanted to try achieving the "blackened" look that many originals have, which were blackened with lampblack and oils. I had already oiled that belt, and it was still light. I went to the backyard, and tried getting some carbon from the charcoal grill. Then I had a brain flash: try the charcoal. I grabbed an old, unused piece and crumbled it up and down the belt, rubbing it in as I went. I then went back to the Garage, and rubbed in more oil. It worked! It dried to become the same finish that I have seen on period boots. It hasn't even rubbed off on my clothes or anything yet. Does anyone else have any experiance like this? And does anyone out there know where to get German or any other kind of hobnails? Thanks for the great idea, and the info! I like this list! Glen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:55:38 EST From: "laura yungblut" Subject: Re: Straw Embriodery and Thai Silk > Christy wrote: >> Second, I am interested in 16th century straw embroidery. I >> understand that Queen Elizabeth had a gown embroidered with straw. Erin wrote: > I am curious about this post. I cannot find a reference to straw > embroidery in any of my historical embroidery books, or my costume > books that cover the 16thC. Where did you get the information > from? Am I missing something? Did you find a 16thC reference, or > are you asking for one? Janet Arnold's book _Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd_ contains a number of textual and illustrative references to straw embroidery in the late 16th to early 17th centuries. I seem to remember other minor references to the practice, but cannot remember from where off the top of my head. Laura Yungblut Univ. of Dayton AKA Rosamund Beauvisage ********************************************************************** The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in a period of moral crisis, maintain their neutrality. Nemo me impune lacessit. Veni, vidi, visa. Get a room. Barney is the Antichrist. It's all Ray's fault. God save the ... never mind. ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 17:04:32 -0400 From: Elizabeth Lear Subject: Re: Romanov exhibit Ah, I have this exhibit catalog from when this show was in Florida. It's very nice! They also had a terrific web page, which is still up though it's different now than when the exhibit was there: http://www.times.st-pete.fl.us/Treasures/TC.Lobby.html ...eliz (SCA: Yelizaveta Medvedeva) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 12:46:36 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: Stinky Leather One of your leathers may be urine-tanned, as this is a common tanning technique used in non-industrial areas. Living close to the border, people occasionally make the mistake of buying cheap leather in Mexico for SCA armor. Then when it becomes damp, usually with sweat in the case of armor, it starts smelling really aweful, and often the dye is not fast. I remember the first guy I saw this happen to. He had spent a lot of time making a lovely black brigantine, and was so proud of his new armor. He came off the field after his first long fight, and pulled his helmet off to find his whole neck and lower jaw was black, in addition to stinking badly from over 10 feet away. He threw his armor off and ran for the nearest sink. He said he could still smell it days later, and he wore high-collared shirts for a few days. He had to take the whole thing apart and replace the leather. Of course we still remind him of that day..... Julie Adams julie_adams@corp.cubic.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:41:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Elizabeth Coffey Subject: MOMCC Conference The Midwest Open-Air Museums Coordinating Council's Annual Conference will be held November 9-10-11 in West Lafayette, Indiana. This year's annual meeting sessions and speakers will include the following: 1. A Newbie's View of the Internet - Presenters John M. Harris, Director Local History Services, Indiana Historical Society and Patricia Miller, Direcotr Illinois Heritage Association. 2. Theorem Painting - Libby Smith 3. Bead Working - Leslie Dotson 4. Moccasin Making - Jim Ferringer (The Above sessions are pre-conference sessions to be held throughout Tursday, November 9, 1995.) Sessions to be held on Friday November 10 and Saturday November 11 5. The Things They Left Behind: Strategies for Researching and Interpreting the Ohio Valley Fur Trade - presentor Dr. Terry Barnhart, Eastern Illinois University. 6. Where to Look: Using historical photographs as documents - presentor John Adams-Graf, Neville Public Museum 7. Learn How to Copy Stand your Photographs - presentors - John Adams-Graf, Neville Public Museum and Tim Talbott, Early American Museum. 8. "...a variety pleasing to the eye" - presentor Tim Talbott, Early American Museum. 9. How Women Can Make Money, Married of Single, in all Branches of the Arts and Sciences, Professions, Trades, Agricultural and Mechanical Pursuits": A Woman's Place is not always in the kitchen! - presentor - Libby Smith, The Crowning Touch. 10. Poultry: Our Feathered Friends - Terry Sargent, Connor Prairie. 11. Paisley Shawls - A 19th Century Statement - presentor - Nancy Torgerson, The England Seamstress. 12. Taking it Farther Back - 18th Century Dressing and Impressions - presentors - Kathleen Kannik, Kannik's Corner, and Elizabeth Coffey, Eastern Illinois University. 13. Indiana's Gravestone Heritage - presentor - Dick Stringfellow, Tippecanoe County Historical Association. 14. Event Planning - preentors - Mark Thompson, Coordinator, Feast of the Hunter's Moon and Darrell Mosley, Coordinator, Gathering on LaSalle's Theatiki. 15. Felt Hat Making - presentor - Suzanne Pufpaff, The Felt Lady. 16. Ft. Ouiatenon Archeology - presentor Leslie Martin Dotson, Tippecanoe County Historical Association. 17. Show and Tell Clothing 18. Geography of the World - presentor Ed Grogan, Connor Prairie. Conference fees are $55.00 and includes Friday Luncheon, Banquet, and Period Dance for MOMCC and ALHFAM members. Non members an additional $20.00, but this will include a one year membership benefits with MOMCC. MOMCC is the midwest regional representative of the Association of Living History Farms and Agricultural Museums. The organization was founded in 1978 to further the interchange of materials, information, and ideas within the history field. Currently, MOMCC sponsors two conferences annually and publishes the quarterly MOMCC magazine available to all members. Anyone wishing additional information on the Conference please e-mail me at: cseac@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu If you wish a conference flyer or membership information, please include your name and postal address. Thank you, Elizabeth Coffey Secretary, MOMCC ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #215 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!