From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #216 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, October 10 1995 Volume 3, Number 216 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: RE: male fashion in late middle ages RE: RE: Coloured Leather Buccaneers Road to Wellville Review RE: male fashion in late middle ages Attaching bodice to skirt Re: Road to Wellville Review Re: Attaching bodice to skirt corsets Subject: Re: RE: Coloured Leather RE: male fashion in late middle ages Re: Buccaneers RE: Buccaneers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 16:20:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: RE: male fashion in late middle ages On Mon, 9 Oct 1995 julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM wrote: > Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 09:34:57 PDT > -- You can use woven fabric and cut it on a bias. While I > normally draft my own patterns, I am told Medieval Miscellainia > patterns provides a pattern for hose which provides good results. > I normally cut and sew a very long tube for each leg. While the > hose are still inside out, try each leg on and pin and mark seams > to fit, sew and turn. Then fit the crotch. Hose must be fitted to an > individual's leg to fit well, but a pattern can provide guidelines. > Knitted hose are period, and I have seen very good > representations of striped knitted hose made by using > "well-selected" T-shirt knitted stripes running vertically up the leg. I am not a hose expert, certes, but I do know the archaeological and contemporary nomenclature and would like to put for these comments for your consideration, in addition to the person who posted this message that I am responding to. (I.e. there are two persons I am addressing here, the one who asked about the hose, whose words you do not see here, and the one whose comments I am responding to, whose words you do see here.) Woven fabric cut on the bias is the most accurate hose you could make, and the only medieval one, actually to accurate to what I know, using woven cloth is the only medieval medium from which chausses and hosen were made that I know of. Those pattern I have seen never represent a tube, the hose is cut in the shape of the leg with the seem joined at the back, and then perhaps fitted. Wool is a wonderful springy fabric perfect for this use, you can find a nice thin wool, they lined the chausses and hosen often if you can't stand the feel of it. Linen is harder to wrk with and you will rarely get the clingy look, even on the bias, but is does feel nice and was used medievally. Silk also, but never a sendal, satin, noil, etc. There is a nice wool/lycra mix, which is more expensive than the cotten spandex, but is more correct and will probably look and feel nicer. Typically the pattern for fourteenth and fifteenth century has the legs as described, following the shape of the leg (which allows a chance to pad the calf if you need it men) and a foot piece, and last a sole piece. Many hose of the period were used in lieu of shoes and had leather soles attached to them for indoor use. Anyway, patterns are available, and perhaps an expert on the list, but using stretchy modern fabric in the modern easily sensible sew tube and fit, won't give you the proper medieval look and doesn't allow you to add padding where you probably need it to get the correct shapes. Knitted hose to my understanding is not medeival, I have never found a medieval reference to it. In England Henry Tudor did not have knit hose and had many made of good english broadcloth, Elizabeth received a pair from spain of knitted silk stockings as a truly royal present, the posple didn't have it, and as you know, neither the Tudor period nor the Elizabethan were medieval anymore than you can say 20th century americans are Victorians (although we owe a lot of our thinking to them [the quote was made not by me, but a friend of mine]). As to the Italians and Spanish from whence northern Europe received their cotton, wool and silk knitted stockings the earliest mention of it I have found anywhere is late fifteenth century, which in Italy was also not medieval, but renaissance. Those figures in the Tres Riche Heures were not wearing knitted stockings. Please only take what I say as a slightly educated opinion, I normally don't go out of my time and area, you have not said what country, what century, what economic status or social status, and how authentic you want it or what this clothing is to be used for. Are you just doing this out of curiosity? I wish you the best of luck in finding your resources and manifesting your research. Your servant, Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:12:30 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: RE: RE: Coloured Leather You may want to check with your local Tandy Leather Store (if you have = one near by) They could probably help you with dyes, getting rid of the = smell, etc. Joan Broneske - ---------- From: GDresback@aol.com[SMTP:GDresback@aol.com] Sent: Monday, October 09, 1995 12:04 PM To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: RE: Coloured Leather=20 Hi all, I have a leather question that is sort of vexing me myself. I recently got some Turkish leather M1909 ammo pouches, which are a really awful, stinking leather, very light in color, and I need to dye them or darken them with oil somehow, to make them a dark, rich brown color, = like German leather pouches, straps, etc.=20 I have been soaking them in cold water and Dawn(tm) = dishwashing detergent, then spraying them down with water, in order to reduce the = awful stench. I cannot tell what the smell is, I have never smelled anything = like it. When they dry, most are a very light yellow-tan, while some parts or entire pouches are a odd greenish-tan cast. These different leathers = react differently when oiled with neatsfoot oil, and I am trying some mink oil = in order to darken them, but it doesn't seem to give fast results.=20 Can anyone on the list help me? I need some ideas on how to = get these things an even dark brown. Dye would be fine, except that I know = little about it. What is the best type? And can I make an authentic one myself? = (For the WWI era) Are the Kiwi products any good?=20 Thanks! Glen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 16:52:14 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Buccaneers Does anyone know the exact date "The Buccaneers" is supposed to be set in? I saw the first episode last night. I assumed 1874-1876 from the gowns, but wasn't sure. So what did people think? I thought there were some lovely gowns (right out of Renoir and Tissot), but a few others.....hmmmm. And I didn't care for some of the hair and makeup, and that bare-legged scene? hmmmm. Certainly beautiful houses and gardens.... One of my favorite periods.... -- julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 16:32:22 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Road to Wellville Review Just rented a charming period video this weekend, "The Road to Wellville", which is set in the early 20th century, I believe somewhere between 1900 and 1910. Anthony Hopkins, Bridgitte Fonda, and John Cusak star, among others. My husband, who is not particularly interested in flicks just for the costuming, and I both got a lot of chuckles out of it. It looks like a lot of original gowns and hats were used, does anyone know the details? Set in a "Sanitarium" for health fanatics, it even gives a plausible excuse for the characters not wearing corsets. Deals in a very humorous way with early vegetarianism, medical and health cures and gadgets, sex, and feminism. Very cute movie, with some very nice clothes....julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 14:30:56 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: male fashion in late middle ages Teresa said: >Anyway, patterns are available, ...easily sensible sew tube and > fit, won't give you the proper medieval look and doesn't allow >you to add padding where you probably need it to get the >correct shapes. I don't understand why you would think that fitting a hose on the person would *not* create the correct look. I feel that using a tube (starting with the seam in the back and a scoop cut out of the appropriate side for the crotch for each leg) and then fitting it to the leg, (by pinning, basting, or marking, sewing, then removing excess fabric) not only gives a "proper medieval look", but additionally, space for padding may be provided easily by duct-taping the pads in position prior to draping. I was merely describing how to "drape" a leg. When fitting is done, if you were to cut apart the hose at the seams, the pattern shape will resemble the period shape shown in several books. I just draft and create each pair as I go, as each type of fabric moves and fits differently, so I find purchased patterns superfluous in a shape as complicated and various as a leg. A pattern becomes useful only for seam placement. You can also sew it loosely, then fit as needed. Most of the odd shapes which show up in layouts of original hose come naturally when the foot pieces and ankles are fitted. This method has been proven by a number of non-sewing male novices and works stunningly. Most novice costumers would have no idea where to start altering if a purchased paper hose pattern if it did not fit right the first time. The drawback on this method is that it would be difficult to do on yourself. You need someone (that you are very friendly with) to help fit you. >Knitted hose to my understanding is not medeival, I have never >found a medieval reference to it. Perhaps there are no written references to knitted stockings, but as discussed recently on this list, there are visual references based on several paintings and drawings as early as the 13th century, and earlier still in the middle east, of people knitting hose-like shapes. These were not English, and I agree, an Englishman might not have had knitted stockings prior to Tudor times. I have relatively little information about English commoners in any period. >Elizabeth received a pair from spain of knitted silk stockings as a >truly royal present, the posple didn't have it, I don't feel that this example shows that the fact that the garment was knitted was what made the gift of stockings valuable or rare. I don't feel that knitting would have been a factor of social class, as labor was cheap, knitting can be done by anyone (the busy hands factor), and it is not that difficult to do. I believe the value of this particular gift would have been in its quality and materials. There is also the possibility that knitting was a technique relegated to lower class women and therefore not worthy of comment. In addition, there are quite a few existing examples of middle/lower class knitted goods (berets, hats, stockings) yes, from 16th cent. Germany, shown in "Textilier Hausrat, Kleidung and Haustextilen im Nurnberg 1500-1600". The same types articles of clothing shown are also represented in much earlier paintings and drawings as well, but there is always the question as to whether they are "early Renaissance" or "Late Medieval". But for all that, I also agree that to more precisely answer Rob's question, and to understand what Rob is describing as "late medieval", we do need to know some more details. So Rob, do you have a particular region or year you are interested in? I agree with Teresa, that lycra and spandex are much too modern for my tastes, and there are a number of wool knits available if Rob is costuming for a "continental" persona. There are also a few woven fabrics out there which stretch like knits (one woven fabric I've seen looks just like a double knit, but if I used it I would feel like I would constantly have to explain "its not a double knit, its woven,...really"). I have no idea what this weave is called or even if it is period. If the fabric you choose for the hose is expensive, I suggest a test run be made using a less expensive cloth with a similar weave and body. Rob: As an aside, if you are sewing the hose by hand, I would suggest using a backstitch, or whip the edges, and if you are sewing by machine, be sure to use a stretch stitch or you will quickly break threads (causing it to unravel and create gaping holes) and have to resew the seams. - --julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 21:42:21 -0400 From: MonicaShen@aol.com Subject: Attaching bodice to skirt Hello all! Thank you to everyone that sent me information about the 1848-1852 ballgowns. It's been really helpful! One more question: What is the best way to attach the bodice to the skirt? I've used large sized hooks and eyes in combination with snaps. They work for most dances, but I have yet to make it through an 1840's can-can without half of the hooks coming undone! Do you mount the hooks on elastic? Alternating directions? Thanks for you help! Monica Shen monicashen@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:48:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Road to Wellville Review > Set > in a "Sanitarium" for health fanatics, it even gives a plausible > excuse for the characters not wearing corsets. More than plausible--absolutely historic. Kellog (on whom the whole thing is based--Rice Crispies started out as a health food) was very down on them. (One of is less silly health theories.) *************************************************************************** Sarah E. Goodman goodston@well.sf.ca.us goodston@netcom.com goodston@river.org Senior Designer & Chief Cat Herder, Wee Cottage, Daly City, California, USA *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:50:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Attaching bodice to skirt > for most dances, but I have yet to make it through an 1840's can-can without > half of the hooks coming undone! Do you mount the hooks on elastic? Well, that's what you get for doing such an immoral dance! ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 08:10:49 EDT From: andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) Subject: corsets Having finished my first Elizabethan corset about 2 weeks before I joined Nutri-system, I came upon an interesting question. Is it possible to alter the corset or shuold I just make another after I reach my goal weigt?..., AND when does the corset become to big? I am a SCAdian who normally does Italian Ren or Bronze Age Celtic, I know almost nothing about fitting my corset. Andrea andreah@cpsnet.com "We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it!" The Blues Brothers ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 1995 07:55:07 CDT From: "MEQLAN2.AEKATHAN" Subject: Subject: Re: RE: Coloured Leather GDresback@aol.com wrote: >I recently got some Turkish leather M1909 ammo pouches, which are a really >awful, stinking leather, very light in color, and I need to dye them or >darken them with oil somehow, to make them a dark, rich brown color, like >German leather pouches, straps, etc. More than likely for something this old, the awful smell is just mold. Moldy leather is quite dreadful. Saddle soap may help with this. > I need some ideas on how to get >these things an even dark brown. Dye would be fine, except that I know little >about it. What is the best type? And can I make an authentic one myself? (For >the WWI era) Are the Kiwi products any good? Dye is the best way to go. A penetrating dye will make them a consistent color, such as Tandy or Fiebing's (often carried by Tandy). In addition, the dye smell will overcome the mold smell until it fades. Be careful with the dye, it works as well on skin as it does on leather (treated skin). After the dye dries, buff the leather with a cloth and apply a clear polish to get a nice luster. Arthur Kathan Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:50:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: RE: male fashion in late middle ages Please forgive me if I was not clear, I was not casting aspersions on your technique, or even the final look, I am quite convinced you are far more knowledgable than I am on draping, and even better on getting a "proper look" that you are going for. I was responding to the query who wanted medieval clothes, not as I understood it, clothes that looked medieval. For instance, I was under the impression that if X wanted a medieval "robe" of clothes he would want to construct in a medieval fashion using appropriate materials and what patterns we know of, to recreate a proper wardrobe. I was not under the impression that this was a costume, which is one of the reasons I asked for greater clarity. Please do not feel that I dismiss your suggestions, which I am sure are excellent, only say we have a vastly different outlook, I don't think to make things medievally, or to look medieval, but to sew contemporary fashionable clothes for a fourteenth century english person. It is perhaps my mistake to allow my concepts (trying to be in that century as anthropologists place themselves in a society to study it) to affect perceptions outside my narrow range. I do apologize. > I don't understand why you would think that fitting a hose on the > person would *not* create the correct look. I feel that using a tube > (starting with the seam in the back and a scoop cut out of the > appropriate side for the crotch for each leg) and then fitting it to > the leg, (by pinning, basting, or marking, sewing, then removing > excess fabric) not only gives a "proper medieval look", but > additionally, space for padding may be provided easily by > duct-taping the pads in position prior to draping. > >found a medieval reference to it. > > I don't feel that this example shows that the fact that the garment > was knitted was what made the gift of stockings valuable or rare. > I don't feel that knitting would have been a factor of social class, > as labor was cheap, knitting can be done by anyone (the busy > hands factor), and it is not that difficult to do. I believe the value > of this particular gift would have been in its quality and materials. > Here I would very much disagree with you, silk was not unheard of for hose or chausses for several hundred years, although wool is uniquely suited for it, it is my understanding that it was the knitted quality of the stockings which made them remarkable and the the fabric, which must have felt oh so nice, was icing on the cake. Knitted stocking offer someing quite unique that even bias-cut hose didn't have, that was truly elasticity allowing for form fitting shape. One of the ways to tell how revolutionary this was the spectacular copying and commonality that knitting stockings had in England in a very short time. First there were none, than in a twenty year span of time, less actually the price dropped severly, there was a home indurstry in it and even low middle class wore them. Sort of like the popularity of the pill, yes there were oral birth control substances in europe and the folklore herbal stuff the poor still used in appalacia and the south, but in twenty years of the pills allowable use in america it was so much better, reliable, and everywhere. The Italians can be documented to late fifteenth century cotton and wool stockings, and in fact it was those wool knitted stockings that were reproduced in England, not the spanish stuff, but that was very late, and not all too common in Italy. I have doubts that the poor would have had knitted stockings and the rich bias-cut hose, the differences in wardrobe in the fourteenth century can generally be ascribed to quality not different wardrobe pieces or types, nobles still got much of their basics, linen clothing from homespun, the fifteenth century started ending that. I do not deny early medeival knitting, I have grave suspicions, however as to Western European knitted stockings, anywhere before the mid-fifteenth century, barring the importation of the princely gift from the infidels, where Spain recieved much. > There is also the possibility that knitting was a technique > relegated to lower class women and therefore not worthy of > comment. In addition, there are quite a few existing examples of > middle/lower class knitted goods (berets, hats, stockings) yes, > from 16th cent. Germany, shown in "Textilier Hausrat, Kleidung > and Haustextilen im Nurnberg 1500-1600". The same types > articles of clothing shown are also represented in much earlier > paintings and drawings as well, but there is always the question > as to whether they are "early Renaissance" or "Late Medieval". > But for all that, I also agree that to more precisely answer Rob's > question, and to understand what Rob is describing as "late > medieval", we do need to know some more details. So Rob, do > you have a particular region or year you are interested in? > Knitting is definitly an iffy discussion subject for me, I have hear of, however an extant scholar who has held probably all the museum pieces of medieval knitting he/she could find, and will be presenting a paper on it at Kalamazoo in a few years, this is only hearsay. Perhaps I could get in touch with her and ask her opinion, and expert's comments on the subject of medieval knitting would be wonderful. Thank you for the detailed draping method, I have only worked from a pattern and consider myself only the most novice seamstress. So Rob, what will it be? :-) Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 09:53:28 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: Buccaneers Did anyone catch the beautiful camera shots copying some of the Renoir and Tissot paintings, like the Nanny reading a book in the grass, or the Tea on the Lawn? I was much happier with everything in the second episode overall. Much better hair and makeup. I've enjoyed seeing the girls running and playing naturally in their corsets. - -- julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:07:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Buccaneers > I've enjoyed seeing the girls running and playing >naturally in their corsets. I enjoyed seeing Nan climbing a step ladder and handling heavy framed paintings in a corset. And a bustle skirt. And pregnant too. Granted, the actress playing the part wasn't really pregnant. But it took guts to climb 5 ft high on a step ladder, wrestle with a 2 foot square painting, hand it to the butler who has walked in, and then turn around and come down the ladder FRONTWARDS as if it were stairs. I can't even do that in jeans and sneakers, much less in a floor-sweeping bustle gown! Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Rivetted to my TV set for the final installment tonight. Then I'll go back over my taped copy and look at the gowns. Right now, I'm following the story. And I'm aching for Nan. (Repeat after me: it's fiction. It's only a movie.) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #216 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!