From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #217 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, October 10 1995 Volume 3, Number 217 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: RE: Buccaneers Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #216 Bucaneers Knitting again, wasRe: male fashion in late middle ages The Buccaneers Re: Knitting again, wasRe: male fashion in late middle ages Past Patterns 1860's Corset Fringing wool Knitting in the C13th? Name of the Rose Re: corsets Turkish Leather Smells Re: Fringing wool Re: Wools Re: Knitting again, wasRe: male fashion in late middle ages Re: Fringing wool Immortal Beloved review Re: Yet Another Corset Query 14th century: cloaks vs mantles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 14:15:55 -0400 From: felicia m ciaudelli Subject: RE: Buccaneers In reply to the mail from ... - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 13:07:18 -0500 (CDT) >From: Deb >To: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM, h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com >Subject: RE: Buccaneers >But it took guts to climb 5 ft high on a step ladder, >wrestle with a 2 foot square painting, hand it to the >butler who has walked in, and then turn around and come >down the ladder FRONTWARDS as if it were stairs. I can't >even do that in jeans and sneakers, much less in a >floor-sweeping bustle gown! And not to mention the SHOES that she had to have been wearing! I caught my- self holding my breath, praying she wouldn't fall!! >Rivetted to my TV set for the final installment tonight. >Right now, I'm following the story. And I'm aching for Nan. >(Repeat after me: it's fiction. It's only a movie.) Ditto for me!!! Felicia i000347@disch3.disc.dla.mil - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i000347 sends (felecia ciaudeli)... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:20:20 -0700 From: ccary@tiara (Christina Cary) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest V3 #216 > > Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 14:30:56 PDT > From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM > Subject: RE: male fashion in late middle ages > > There is also the possibility that knitting was a technique > relegated to lower class women and therefore not worthy of > comment. Hmmm, I need to go home and look at my knitting history books (if anyone is interested), but I believe this is not the case. In England, at least, there used to be "Knitting Guilds," and members (all men, I think) were extremely accomplished and had to knit many astonishing pieces in order to qualify for membership. They were regarded as professionals. Of course, the "lower classes" certainly knit for themselves as well, and their work would be disregarded by most museum collections. But knitting in general was not necessarily considered a strictly lower-class hobby. Christina - -- My first name is: Christina My last name is: Cary Editor, Technical Publications E-mail address: ccary@sgi.com _______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:59:47 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Bucaneers I watched most of last night's episode. I agree with you about the "carrying picture frame, coming down ladder in gown" thing. I was waiting for her to lose her balance!! I really felt for her when the mother-in-law was instructing her in all that she was to do. How overwhelming!! I think I'll pass, although I would love to live in that house!! As for her husband...what a creep!! I liked the gown she was wearing right before she ran out into the night and fell down. It was fairly simple, yet elegant. I haven't really seen anything yet that makes me jump up and down. I'll keep watching tonight... Joan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 13:05:50 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Knitting again, wasRe: male fashion in late middle ages Teresa wrote: :Knitting is definitly an iffy discussion subject for me, I have hear of, :however an extant scholar who has held probably all the museum pieces of :medieval knitting he/she could find, and will be presenting a paper on it :at Kalamazoo in a few years, this is only hearsay. Perhaps I could get :in touch with her and ask her opinion, and expert's comments on the :subject of medieval knitting would be wonderful. While I have found lots of quotes about lack of knitted stockings (said when they began to appear during Elizabeth's reign), knitting itself is easily documentable. There are too many medieval illustrations of the Virgin knitting (4 needle knitting of a shirt) for it not to exist. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 14:43:50 -0500 (CDT) From: FRIENDC@carleton.edu Subject: The Buccaneers is actually (originally) a book by Edith Wharton (you may already know) which I _highly_ recommend! TV-less at college - Chandra friendc@carleton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 16:38:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Knitting again, wasRe: male fashion in late middle ages As I am not an art historian, nor do I have a large collection on costuming and clothing books I should like a listing of the "too many medieval illustrations." If you think this is possible? I have never seen a medieval Virgin knitting, and should very much like to, in case anyone ever asks me. Even if you could reference the below with a work and wherein it might be published, plus the first two or three that pop into your head would be extremely helpful. Thank you. And I should like to state regarding the discussion with julie adams, whom, as I said obviously knows more about draping then I do that I should probably never have questioned or discussed the fitting and the pattern part, as I know so little in the area of sewing, so everyone should ignore what I have to say on the pattern/sewing part, but not on the economic frequency part. Thank you all for your patience. I am but an egg. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 15:17:28 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Past Patterns 1860's Corset Erin, I'd love to know what kind of problems you had with the 1860's french corset. I had the following problems: a) It took more fitting than I thought it would. (Par for the course, I guess.) b) When I wore it, it scrunched down around my hips and bit me, mainly because the spring steel bones don't go all the way down the corset over the hips. I will probably add more spring steel bones (this time extending from the bottom to halfway up the corset) to solve this. c) I didn't bother with the leather patch they say to use. (This hasn't been a problem, actually.) Gail DeCamp decampg@ngc.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 95 15:24:23 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Fringing wool Hi, all. I bought a plaid woolen square to make into a shawl. I would like to fringe the edges, so last night I started methodically removing threads from one edge. (I want to end up with a shawl that looks like one I saw in an 1852 daguerreotype on the shoulders of a housekeeper. It's in a book on domestic arrangements that's written under the auspices of the National Trust--I believe it's called Home Comforts.) Anyway, her shawl has 3" long fringe on it. Unfortunately, an hour's worth of patient thread removal gained me about 1/4" of fringeable thread. At this rate, I will grow old before I have a real shawl. Does anyone know a fast way to remove warp and weft threads? The threads tend to break and shred easily, so I can't remove an entire thread all at one time--I was patiently teasing them out with a pin. They break so easily that I can't pull them out. Also, how do I convert the hanging threads into thick fringes? Is there a specific way to do it, or do I just twist them and hope they stay together? Thanks Gail DeCamp decampg@ngc.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:18:30 +1000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Knitting in the C13th? Name of the Rose I was watching THAT movie again last night, and Christan Slater pulls a thread from his thick winter wooly undergarment to provide a trail in the labrynth (sp?). THe garment looks like knitting, unravels like knitting, yet surely not? Comments please. + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 (space for ASCII | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au picture when I | | "The Midnight Fox", "Mummy" find the time!) | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 17:34:17 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: corsets I cannot see you to judge where adjustments need to be made. One rule of thumb, there should be no less than a 2 inch gap in the back lacing of any period corset. If you are lacing it shut, it is too big. Elizabthan corsets are not too complicated, why not just make a new one in a smaller size and cannibalize the steel boning from the larger one? Good luck on the diet, but be careful. I had to have my gall bladder removed after Nutri-system and I was only 23 at the time! Erin Moody ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:07:13 +1000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Turkish Leather Smells If the leather Glen described is anything like the leather bangles my brother brought back from Greece, then it has been cured with fish oil, and the only thing that managed to get rid of the smell was lots of soaking in salt (sea) water, and stacks of sunshine. This, however, will probably damage the leather. Good luck (and hold your nose) + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + | Gillian Richards - TAFE NSW - (02) 716 3712 (space for ASCII | | aka: gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au picture when I | | "The Midnight Fox", "Mummy" find the time!) | + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 18:23:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Fringing wool On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Gail DeCamp wrote: > Anyway, her shawl has 3" long fringe on it. Unfortunately, an hour's > worth of patient thread removal gained me about 1/4" of fringeable > thread. At this rate, I will grow old before I have a real shawl. Does > anyone know a fast way to remove warp and weft threads? The threads > tend to break and shred easily, so I can't remove an entire thread all > at one time--I was patiently teasing them out with a pin. They break > so easily that I can't pull them out. The proper way to get a long fringe on a wool shawl is to leave the warp-ends long when you cut it off the loom. Seriously. The natural "sticky" properties of wool will make it very difficult to unravel that same amount. I don't know that it's really worth the effort. I'd suggest looking for a shawl or light blanket that already has the desired fringe. (Or you could try weaving it yourself ....) I don't know of any easy way to do what you're doing. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 21:43:41 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Wools Just my two cents: while wools do give the most forgiving fit in hose, linen and straight tabby silk can be made to drape on the bias with an excellent fit. From a Guild charter from Spain in the 15th C in _Hispanic Costume 1480 - 1530_, ISBN 87535-126-3, all hosen made by guild members must be _lined_ with new linen, and the waist area adequately reinforced with canvas. Also, inventories in QE's Closet list linen stocking liners. The Museum of London's _Textiles and Clothing_ ISBN 0-11-290445-9 gives cutting patterns for both 14th C and 16thC hose feet - both styles elegant and tricksy. a good hand technique for hose seams: straight or back stitch the seam, then turn the hose right side out and pick stitch up both sides of the seam, to keep it flat and stop fraying. Pick stitch = a back stitch with a _very_ tiny surface leg and a longer under leg. This method works for me every time. AS to knitting, it was my understanding that knitting was actually a 'guild secret' even through the 17th C, that is, it was mainly done by professionals in urban areas. Of course, I have no evidence that it was not done rurally by non-professionals. Oh, BTW, _Textiles and Clothing has photos of knitted pieces from a late 14th C deposit, but it is impossible to tell what type of garment it was from, and knitted stocks (like leg warmers), caps and sleeve protectors were recovered from the May Rose, who went down during the reign of Henry VIII. These were of wool, as were the earlier fragments. clink, clink, Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 21:56:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Knitting again, wasRe: male fashion in late middle ages There are pictures of knitting madonas and a reasonable history of knitting in: _A History of Hand Knitting_ by Richard Rutt, Interweave Press. 1989, isbn 0-934026-35-1 jaelle (who happened to have it sitting by her computer) jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 21:59:28 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Fringing wool fringing, the short form, would be to find a fingering weight wool that coordinates with your fabric and hook fringe on, then twist it. The long form, keep raveling, then, ,when your threads are long enough,you twist them: Start with two groups of threads that will equal the thickness of the fringe you want, and twist them against their established twist, put them next to each other, and let go. they should twirl up together. If not, play with your waste threads to see how they want to twist. Rubbing them between your palms after they twist will felt them alittle and encourage them to stay. Wow, my typins this time of night! Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:38:49 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Immortal Beloved review The Romantic period isn't my area of expertise, but to my only semi-educated eye, Immortal Beloved looked authentic in its costuming. There were some lovely gowns, jewelery, and the hairstyles were particularly interesting. (It was an interesting movie and a fascinating glimpse into the twisted genius of Beethoven, although there was one violent scene that I cannot for the life of me figure out why it was included...) Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:38:40 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Yet Another Corset Query >Juliana said: >My >dilemma is this: what and where is the best pattern I can use? I can work >>from an illustration, but a pattern would be a bonus. If it matters, my >>natural waist = 31 in. / bust = 39 in. >>Thanks (in advance), >>Juliana Quartaroli > I've had the corset I made checked by someone who knows and...it's a perfect fit. I made my own pattern and it took only minor modifications from the following formula...it was so easy, I don't know why anyone would bother with a commercial pattern. (mind you, this is a Tudor/Elizabethan corset which ends at the waist) [with respect for Diana Parker who showed me this] Measurements (measure as tight as you want the corset to be): bust waist from armpit to waist from mid-breast to the bottom of the point (wear a bra and make sure the straps lift your breasts into the position you want them to end up in...some of us have some variance!) Paper pattern (can even use taped together newspapers, but it is fragile) pick a centre point...mark it draw a horizontal line the width of your bust measure down the inches from armpit to waist then draw a parallel line the width of your waist from the starting point of your bust line to the ending point, draw a gentle curve...for a busty woman the curve should peak about 3 inches higher than the starting point draw a parallel curved line from waist starting point to ending point draw lines down from the starting bust point to the starting waist point, and from the ending bust point to the ending waist point from the peak of the bust curve, draw a line down the measurement of your mid-bust to bottom of point draw lines dividing your corset pattern into 6ths draw a curve up from the bottom of the point to the 1/6th mark on either side of the centre line armpit curves: starting at the 1/6th mark from each end of the bust curve, make a curve down into the corset. the bottom of the curve should be 1 inch lower than the bust curve, and it should hit the 1/3rd mark. hip curves: same thing only curving up from the waist curve. Modifying: cut out and try on your pattern (carefully...don't rip it!) make sure it covers your nipples, isn't too high in the armpit, and that the armpit and hip curves are in the right place (I'm rather busty, so I had to move mine back a few inches) remember if you made it a little small that it will sit differently when laced...if, for instance, there is a 2 inch gap at the back, the armpit and hip curves should be 1/2 inch too far forward...it will work out when laced if there are modifications, use your existing pattern to trace a new corset pattern then make the changes try it on again Hope this isn't too confusing! Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 21:48:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Indigo Subject: 14th century: cloaks vs mantles hi all. after lurking about on this list i finally have something to ask all you knowledgeable people. I am attempting to construct a sort of wardrobe for a 14th century Bohemian (czechoslovakian) woman. for the most part my source is Olga Sronkova's _Gothic Women's Fashion_, which is excellent... and other general european or german history of costume books. So... i am confused about this whole thing about a _mantle_... it looks like it is just another fashionable accessory and seems to be worn hanging off the shoulders (very pretty). but what about _warm_ clothes for a noblewoman? surely she would have had to venture into the cold winter _sometimes_... what kind of outerwear did she have? i haven't seen _any_ pictures of cloaks but i wonder if that is what she would have worn. If so, i have some questions. 1) if she wears the cloak to go from one place to another, what happens to the mantle? does she perhaps layer it underneath, or is the mantle only a warm-weather accessory? 2) what would this cloak be made of? also, what kind of cut does the cloak have? 3) what would the mantle be made of? 4) in times of, say, rain or snow, would she have a hood? a hat of some sort? if so, how does she keep her veil attached to her head underneath all that? thanks muchly. :) - -christina. ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #217 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!