From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #218 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, October 11 1995 Volume 3, Number 218 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Immortal Beloved review Re: Yet another Corset query Another Knitting Madonna Thought on Knitting fun for Halloween Re: Thought on Knitting career questions [Fwd: paned trunk-hose] Gloves & Buccaneers Another Buccaneers-related question Re: Gloves & Buccaneers Re: Thought on Knitting Re: Thought on Knitting textile production Re[2]: Fringing wool Re: Thought on Knitting ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:23:59 +1000 From: kylie@psy.uq.edu.au (Kylie McDougall) Subject: Re: Immortal Beloved review > The Romantic period isn't my area of expertise, but to my only >semi-educated eye, Immortal Beloved looked authentic in its costuming. > > There were some lovely gowns, jewelery, and the hairstyles were >particularly interesting. > > (It was an interesting movie and a fascinating glimpse into the >twisted genius of Beethoven, although there was one violent scene that I >cannot for the life of me figure out why it was included...) > > Kathleen (Catriona) > Nor do I know much about dress of the Romantic period (Isabella Rosselini's costumes and jewellery were exquisite) but I simply had to add my piece on Immortal Beloved. I found it to be one of the most beautiful and tragic films I have ever seen. It brought Beethoven and living in Vienna during Napoleon's reign of terror to life for me - the music, costumes, sets, manners - everything! The scene with Beethoven standing on the stage, whilst the 9th Symphony was performed, as he remembered running though the woods as a young boy, away from all his fear, and swimming out into the lake beneath the stars, was so moving. Oh I cried for him. Kylie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 23:10:40 -0700 From: Joan Broneske Subject: Re: Yet another Corset query Kathleen Leggat wrote about making a corset and gave instructions. This was for an Elizabethan/Tudor corset. Would this pattern/instruction work for other period corsets? Allowing of course for the difference in shape for the period. Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:22:38 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Another Knitting Madonna There is a painting of a knitting madonna in the Art Gallery at San Diego which I visited about 5 years ago. There was no postcard or slide of the collection in the gallery shop, so I can't remember whether the madonna was actually knitting or whether the knitting was laid down. The knitted object was a small pouch, with chevron stripes, and there was a "lazy susan" type object with spools of coloured wool on it nearby. This painting isn't published in Richard Rutt's book, but I think it's contemporary with the paintings which are. Sarah **************************************************************************** ******** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 95 09:41:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Thought on Knitting In Henry VII's reign (sorry, date lost in mists of memory) it became a legal requirement for every man to wear a knitted cap on Sundays, the legislation passed in order to protect the guild. So, maybe they didn't like knitted goods, in comparison with woven, - nobody had to pass an act saying everyone had to wear a hat made of woven fabric!?! NB Every working woman would be spinning, when not doing other work (with a drop spindle and a bit of practice, you are perfectly mobile). The spinning was necessary because of the dominance of the English wool trade, and the fact that weaving was much quicker than spinning (until the Industrial Revolution). So the idea of working women with idle time to fill with knitting is just not valid. I haven't seen any 'knitting madonnas', but is it possible that what she is knitting is a cap or biggin, not a shirt, which would fit with what we know knitting was used for? As to the question of flexibility of woven fabric, I think perhaps we underestimate quite how flexible woven wool can be. I have made body-fitting upper and nether hose (tho' I confess, not long hose yet) and have managed to get that 'painted on' look, even lined (the upper hose were lined with cotton) after a *lot* of fitting (OK so I think my husbands got a cute bum!). I would like to see an analysis from the scholar mentioned. One reason I am doubtful about the widespread use of knitting, is that the clothes worn in the medieval/modern period show very little influence of knitting. If it was widespread, and done domestically, then why are the rest of even children's clothes made from woven cloth (ie except for caps and hose)? Caroline PS I'm on the ' Elizabeth liked the silk' side too! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 07:58:21 EDT From: andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) Subject: fun for Halloween Here is a fun idea for those who wish to participate. This Halloween my husband and I are hosting a "come as you were" party, any historical figure, real or fiction. The catch is, since most of the guests are in SCA we've limited it to AFTER 1650. For those who wish to play along, find a figure that you would be outside of your normal range of study and share what you'd wear. Y'all have the benifit of not worrying about time to make it or wearing uncomfortable stuff, ect. so go nuts! Andrea PS I'm going as George Washington, and my husband as Martha. andreah@cpsnet.com "We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it!" The Blues Brothers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 07:55:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: Thought on Knitting I honestly don't think that knitting was terribly wide spread, but in Rutt's book on the History of Hand Knitting, on of the knitting madonna's is definately knitting a shirt. It is on page 49, and it is The Buxtehude Madonna by Master Bertram of Minden, painted "probably shortly before 1400." It is a shirt or a small dress for a child. There are 4 needles in the neck, and you can see both sleeves. If anyone really doubts it, send me your regular mail addresses, and I'll copy the picture and mail it to you. I don't think it proves knitting was widespread, mind you, but it does show its use. Jaelle jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 08:20:15 EDT From: andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) Subject: career questions I'm new to this list, but I have gotten the impression that most people on the list are SCAdians, is this true? Is anybody out there in cyberspace a profesional? At 30, I am considering finally going back to college and was wondering how the pros feel about the field, ie. are there oppurtunities outside of NYC and L.A., is there a glut of people, is it too hard work for too little pay, is it stable ,ect.ect. I already do custom designed bridal and evening gowns, so I understand the whole "doing something you love for money" thang. Now I'm stuck between costume or fashion design. I think I'd prefer costume, but I can't get any info on the profesional aspects. Thanks Andrea andreah@cpsnet.com "We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it!" The Blues Brothers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 09:13:14 EDT From: andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) Subject: [Fwd: paned trunk-hose] =========BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE========= > Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 09:11:36 EDT > From: andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) > Reply-To: andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) > To: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.edu > X-Mailer: Thomas Gideon's PMMail v1.1 > Subject: paned trunk-hose I'm working on a Mediaeval Miscellanea pattern that has me stumped. I'm making trunk-hose and a doublet for my husband's X-mas present. Has anyone worked with the Med. Mis. Men's Elizabethan pattern? Do I really need to cut 40 strips of fabric for the panes? If so, I need more fabric than what the back of the envolpe says. AND it just doesn't seem right. Any help would be appretiated! Andrea andreah@cpsnet.com "We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it!" The Blues Brothers =========END FORWARDED MESSAGE========= andreah@cpsnet.com "We've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses. Hit it!" The Blues Brothers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:20:31 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Gloves & Buccaneers I'm also enjoying The Buccaneers & awaiting the final episode tonight. One question: In some scenes, women are eating or drinking tea with their gloves on. I was told (by my mother, and reinforced by Miss Manners) that this was a big no-no. In The Buccaneers, the gloved eating scenes seemed to take place mostly outdoors. (I don't remember seeing anyone eating indoors with gloves on, though it may be there.) So when did the rule come in that one did not touch food or drink while wearing gloves? Obviously the characters in The Buccaneers are ladies who should know what is proper. (It wouldn't be the first time a television show got something wrong! But it's such a universal rule now that tho have it different in the show seems deliberate!) Is it "OK" to eat with gloves on if the weather is cold or if you happen to be outside? Now? Then? I'd like to know if I should be removing gloves or keeping them on while reenacting. Glove removal is so practical, though, so you don't get them dirty! -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 10:00:27 -0400 From: felicia m ciaudelli Subject: Another Buccaneers-related question Hi again, everyone!! This is not precisely historical-costume-related, but I thought I'd check with you all and maybe someone can give me some references. On the topic of *The Buccaneers*; for some strange reason, I can't imagine the *upper-society* ladies of that time smoking - or at least not using some type of cigarette holder (maybe it's just me!!). Also, it was either the second or third episode - at one of their little parties, was one of the girls smoking a cigar? Or am I hallucinating? (Not such a far-fetched option!) Looking forward to your input, after you've finished laughing . Felicia - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i000347 sends (felecia ciaudeli)... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:27:17 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Gloves & Buccaneers At 9:20 AM 10/11/95, Carol Kocian wrote: > Is it "OK" to eat with gloves on if > the weather is cold or if you happen to > be outside? Now? Then? Yes for now. Then I don't know. In winter, if I'm outside, I eat with my gloves on. I always understood it was a rule for indoors btw. My 2 cents. YMMV _Deirdre (in Northern Vermont) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:29:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Thought on Knitting Ah joy, sumptuary legislation! Please tell me where one would go (who isn't in England) to find the sumptuary laws passed in Henry VII's reign. Thank you so much for this reference. > In Henry VII's reign (sorry, date lost in mists of memory) it became a > legal requirement for every man to wear a knitted cap on Sundays, the > legislation passed in order to protect the guild. So, maybe they didn't > like knitted goods, in comparison with woven, - nobody had to pass an act > saying everyone had to wear a hat made of woven fabric!?! I am not sure I understand this. In the fourteenth century, and the thirteenth century very little of the wool cloth was woven in England, but the wool, cleaned or uncleaned would be sent to Calais and from there to the weaving centers in Italy, Flanders, and France. It would be woven there, and sometimes dyed in the cloth, occaisionally wool would be dyed in England, but the "good stuff" was always from overseas. There was a domestic trade to be sure, but the cloth coming back into the country found buyers in the middle classes as much as in the nobility. By the fourteenth and fifteenth century people were lamenting that the quality of wool and thence of the cloth was not what it used to be. In Charlemagnes time it was woven and exported to Europe from England and was recorded as being of excellent quality, but starting in the 12th century and accelerating into the 13th, wool was exported in the most raw form to Flanders weaving centers. Various trade wars developed etc., but you get the picture. So I am wondering, just why would people have been so busy spinning, they certainly had time to go on pilgrimages and get drunk, they are certainly as active in village sports and recreation as the boys, I have seen examples of court cases, manuscripts, and contemporary descriptions showing this was so. Women, even peasants, did have free time. And used it to enjoy themselves. Although I should say that around the sixteenth century things did change, and by the seventeenth century England was doing most of their own spinning and the wool trade, which became almost entirely worsted wool. As I am always looking for good information on this subject I would be very grateful if you could reference me to any or all materials regarding the popularity of a spinning cottage industry previous to the sixteenth century and as I am only in the Midwest, I am quite convinced you have access to much (MUCH) more information on this than I am. Any references would be wonderful. > NB Every working woman would be spinning, when not doing other work (with a > drop spindle and a bit of practice, you are perfectly mobile). The > spinning was necessary because of the dominance of the English wool trade, > and the fact that weaving was much quicker than spinning (until the > Industrial Revolution). So the idea of working women with idle time to > fill with knitting is just not valid. > > I haven't seen any 'knitting madonnas', but is it possible that what she is > knitting is a cap or biggin, not a shirt, which would fit with what we know > knitting was used for? > > As to the question of flexibility of woven fabric, I think perhaps we > underestimate quite how flexible woven wool can be. I have made > body-fitting upper and nether hose (tho' I confess, not long hose yet) and > have managed to get that 'painted on' look, even lined (the upper hose were > lined with cotton) after a *lot* of fitting (OK so I think my husbands got > a cute bum!). > > Caroline > > PS I'm on the ' Elizabeth liked the silk' side too! I am sure Elizabeth liked the silk, I like silk, silk is nice, but think of how much silk she had, unlike us she slept on silk, had silk chausables for her services, had her bed draped with silk velvet, most of her gowns were silk, and she probably had other silk stockings, but not silk knitted stockings from Spain. I confess to leaning towards the importance of the knitted phrase, but now that I have reminded myself that they were from Spain, the importance was probably the dipolomatic gift from Spain. The political play and tensions between England and Spain were intense, and at times Elizabeth was courted by the King, so she gets something from Spain it will be considered of important diplomatic interest. The novely was not the silk, but probably the knitting in fine silk. The fineness of the silk would have made the gift exquisite, but the knitting, and the fact--most important to me--that it was from Spain, would have made the gift. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 07:13:52 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Thought on Knitting Caroline wrote: :I haven't seen any 'knitting madonnas', but is it possible that what she is :knitting is a cap or biggin, not a shirt, which would fit with what we know :knitting was used for? I'm really kicking myself that I can't find that picture when I need it. It's shows the Madonna knitting what is obviously a shirt. She has it all finished except for binding off the neck band (or making the neck hole a little smaller). She has it in her lap and is working on it. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 12:06 CDT From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: textile production Does anyone know of any lists (or even web sites) that deal with textiles themselves (the various fibers, the means of preparation, weave structures, dyeing etc.). This seems to peripherally covered by this list, but I was wondering if there was anything more directly concerned with this. (My area of interest in Medieval, primarily early Middle Ages). Thanks. ****************************** Wendy Robertson Serials Cataloging University of Iowa (319) 335-5894 wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 10:17:07 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Re[2]: Fringing wool Brenda, What is a fingering weight wool? Do you mean wool yarn? What do you mean by hooking it on? Thanks Gail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:16:38 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Thought on Knitting >Ah joy, sumptuary legislation! Please tell me where one would go (who >isn't in England) to find the sumptuary laws passed in Henry VII's reign. >Thank you so much for this reference. > (more deleted matter) I recently attempted to write a paper on the wool trade in medieval England, and it's influence on fashion. I had immense primary source limitations. The requirements of the paper: no less than 2/3 of the documentation had to be primary sources, the length no less than 30 pages text, not including annotated bibliography, and no trip to England! I did find quite alot more than I thought I would, including sumptuary laws of the period, archeeological evidence, and letters. I would love to pass on my references , however, my library and all my belongings moved to Pennsylvania (Penn State) last year. I have since returned to the Univ. of Cal., without my things. Sorry. All I can tell you is that I found almost everything here at Berkeley. I am not sure where you are, and if you could access here. U.C. Berkeley has the second largest library in the United States, I am very priveledged to be looking out on the library building as I type this! If you are interested in a search here, I believe you can access through the web site: http://www.berkeley.edu/ If this is the wrong direction, there are a few more Berkeleyans on this list who also might be able to help..... Erin Moody ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #218 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!