From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #219 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, October 11 1995 Volume 3, Number 219 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Dyeing silk :( Re: Dyeing silk :( Re: Road to Wellville Review RE: Thoughts on Knitting Buccaneers Re: Dyeing silk :( Re: Immortal Beloved review raiment's pattern catalog Re: Cording as Corset Stiff SHoes RE: 14th century: cloaks vs mantles RE: Thoughts on Knitting Re: raiment's pattern catalog ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:13:08 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Dyeing silk :( OK, so if worm spit (love it) dissolves in hot water, and most dyes are set in hot solution, how does one dye silk? Not academic: I'm planning on dyeing some later this year. _Deirdre ------------------------------ From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Dyeing silk :( > OK, so if worm spit (love it) dissolves in hot water, and most dyes are set > in hot solution, how does one dye silk? > > Not academic: I'm planning on dyeing some later this year. > > _Deirdre I am not sure were you received this observation, and I do not know about dyeing, but here are some comments. First, silk is not worm spit or excretion anymore than spider webs are spider spit. This filament is produced only once in their lives and they feed for months straight to get enough little energy to do it. What comes out is genetically and protein-wise equivalent to your hair, in fact when dealing with silk that has been spun already it is best to think of that. In edition to the silk filament a sticky gum substance is simultaeous produced that coats the silk filament allowing it to stick together in a cocoon, literally sticking to the other fibers. What comes out of a healthy silk worm is one long strand. The coccoons that the worms are then encased in are steamed or put in boiling water to kill the worm, whom you don't want eating its way out of the cocoon and damaging the one piece of silk. Tens of thousand are set aside to allow them to hatch so they can reproduce, dead silkworms are eaten as a delicacy. The cocoons are also treated to a special bath in order to disolve the gum holding the silk together. The gum has the additional use of protecting the silk and worm from bacteria and damage from water and heat. Not all silk that is processed has this gum removed. The disadvantage of the gum is that is picks up dirt easily and can be hard or stiff, some modern silks and tussah silk (silk worms who had fed on tussah oak leaves instead of mulberry leaves) will still have some of this gum on making for a rougher more textured garment. Anyway the gum is generally taken off by that bath in very hot water, and perhaps a detergent of some kind (this is all from vague memory all my books are at home). The silk can now be unreeled by hand and then hooked up to a machine and reeled on bobbins. If the cocoon is perfect then a single strand a mile or more long can be gotten at a shot, if not, shorter broken filaments are gathered together and woven into different types of silk. Now there are different grades of even pampered mulberry-eating silkworms. Some, because of controlled diet and environment produce exquisitly delicate silk. Often this is either of a special sheen, or a special thickness. Incredibly thin silk gotten from some of these worms are woven on underwater looms producing something like a fine chiffon or tulle (I really don't remember the names of the fabric) ones with wonderful sheens are usually reserved for charmeuse with those lovely satin finishes very popular with the emperors. Broken fibers were used for noils and some crepes or the rougher sack cloth like tabby weaves. I have the description for silk that was additionally felted and used in China, but that also is at home. There were also those silkworms that fed in the wild, of mixed food stuffs producing uneven silks. Anyway, back to boiling water. The gum dissolves in water, silk doesn't. Water is not bad at all for the silk, but heat is. Like your hair, heat will eventually break down the proteins and the stripped fiber becomes brittle and breaks. Leaving a hot iron on, or boiling silk at length will weaken the fibers and eventually strip them of whatever tensile strength they have left, but warm, not quite boiling, or boiling for short periods of time is ok. Generally you wash silk in warm water with a mild soap like castile or dove, not in a too alkalide or acid detergent. If you have a mild ph balanced shampoo without fragrances and stuff, that is wonderful for silks also. Because silk takes dye so much better than anything else in the world, (acutally pearls dye very easily also) you don't generally need to steep it in dye for as long as wool or linen, or repeatedly use the dye bath, or even use the harsh chemical mordants. I am sure someone who dyes silk out there will be more informative here, certainly do not do to silk what you would to wool and linen, its probably more destructive and time consuming than what you need to do to achieve a more spectacular color with silk. All my references are at home, where I don't have e-mail, but I hope this helps, don't worry you can dye silk at home, easier than wool and linen. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:13:03 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Road to Wellville Review >> Set >> in a "Sanitarium" for health fanatics, it even gives a plausible >> excuse for the characters not wearing corsets. > >More than plausible--absolutely historic. Kellog (on whom the whole >thing is based--Rice Crispies started out as a health food) was very down >on them. (One of is less silly health theories.) Off subject but....we have discussed historical sexuality on this list before... Kellog did eventually produce "Rice Cripies", but he produced "Cornflakes" because it was believed to be a sexual retardant at that time. Kellog believed that overt sexuality was very bad for people and a diet of cornflakes was supposed to reduce sexual urges (I am not kidding, this was described in detail in one of my text books for a graduate level Human Sexuality course at Berkeley). This was a popular theme at the turn of the century (suppressing sexuality). There is tons of documentation of doctors (mostly in England) performing mass hysterectomys at the REQUEST of the women, and at the recommendation of their physicial so that they were not to be bothered by "women'd complaints", "hysteria" and "urges". I have read original letters to these surgeons from the women who had been given hysterectomys THANKING them for "relieving" them of the "bother"!!!! Erin Moody ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 09:02:34 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: Thoughts on Knitting Teresa, Brenda, Catherine and all, thanks for an excellent posts. I was throwing the knitting as a "household craft" idea out as a theory to promote discussion and research, as I really don't know (and want to), and am not a knitter myself. Questions: For striped hose, did they weave the stripes on the diagonal? or sew bias strips together? (I have seen the latter done and the result was gastly.) Anyone else have success? If you had already had the material, would sewing a seam up the back be much faster than knitting? Would knitting take more materials in raw thread? If most people would have wanted a linen lining anyway, is linen practical to knit with? Re: home craft knitting: I was sort of using 16th cent. smocking or embroidery as an example in my mind. (and remember I have a continental vs. English mindset). Though there were embroidery guilds, there was also a lot of home embroidery (though region dependent). In addition, though there are some lovely pictures of upper class German Ren. ladies wearing chemises with smocked necklines, when I dug into it, I also found a number of examples of lower class women wearing smocked chemises and a variety of apron styles. Years ago, I was told bluntly by several very knowledgable people that smocking is not period for 16th cent. Germans, and was only developed and used in the 19th century. Currently I have a number of clear visual examples of 16th cent. German smocking, though no written examples. Maybe they didn't think it was important enough to write down? or maybe the reference is not translated? (most likely) I realize that knitting, embroidery and smocking are different, but I also know people who can figure things like that out from examples by simply unraveling or taking them apart. (Nowadays, they call us Engineers....) IMO I feel that secrets using commonly acquired and identified materials are very difficult to keep (both now and then). While things requiring chemical mixtures would be much more difficult to determine (dyes, alloys, etc.). I am really excited about all the information there is on this subject scattered about internationally, and being brought together here on the list! The more we know, the more we will understand....:-) - --julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:22:46 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Buccaneers Did anyone notice the sites for the homes? The Duke's home was obviously Castle Howard. The other estate looked like the same one used in "The Ruling Class". Can someone from the English side of this list respond? I didn't catch the names in the credits. After last night's episode, my local PBS station ran a tribute to Jeremy Brett, I hadn't known that he just died! His wonderful period films (and Sherlock Holmes) from BBC will be missed by me! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:17:50 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Dyeing silk :( At 2:05 PM 10/11/95, Teresa Shannon wrote: > I am not sure were you received this observation, and I do not know > about dyeing, but here are some comments. First, silk is not worm > spit or excretion anymore than spider webs are spider spit. I know this. It was a joke earlier and I thought it sounded funny! > Anyway, back to boiling water. The gum dissolves in water, silk > doesn't. Water is not bad at all for the silk, but heat is. Like > your hair, heat will eventually break down the proteins and the > stripped fiber becomes brittle and breaks. Leaving a hot iron on, > or boiling silk at length will weaken the fibers and eventually > strip them of whatever tensile strength they have left, but warm, > not quite boiling, or boiling for short periods of time is ok. > Generally you wash silk in warm water with a mild soap like castile > or dove, not in a too alkalide or acid detergent. If you have a > mild ph balanced shampoo without fragrances and stuff, that is > wonderful for silks also. Thanks for the info. > Because silk takes dye so much better than anything else in the > world, (acutally pearls dye very easily also) you don't generally > need to steep it in dye for as long as wool or linen, or repeatedly > use the dye bath, or even use the harsh chemical mordants. I know it takes color brilliantly. I just didn't know what was involved. > I am sure someone who dyes silk out there will be more informative > here, certainly do not do to silk what you would to wool and linen, > its probably more destructive and time consuming than what you need > to do to achieve a more spectacular color with silk. I'll be experimenting soon. Yay! > All my references are at home, where I don't have e-mail, but I > hope this helps, don't worry you can dye silk at home, easier > than wool and linen. Hearing someone say that helps a LOT. _Deirdre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:33:44 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Immortal Beloved review The problem I had with Immortal Beloved were the underpinnings. The gowns were lovely though. Erin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:31:16 -0700 From: bino@ella.mills.edu (Kendra VanCleave) Subject: raiment's pattern catalog can someone tell me if the raiments pattern catalog is comparable to the amazon drygoods catalog? meaning, if i have the amazon drygoods catalog, should i bother getting the raiments one too? also, does someone have raiments address? thanks! - -Kendra Van Cleave bino@ella.mills.edu ------------------------------ Date: 11 Oct 1995 12:59:51 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Cording as Corset Stiff Reply to: RE>>Cording as Corset Stiffener Mary, I've been off line a couple of days, so please forgive the delay in my response. Cotton Cro-Sheen, which comes in balls, is used in crocheted work. I make snoods from it, and recently discovered that it works nicely for finger-woven cording. There is a pattern that gives a slightly flattened cord in two colors, let's say red and blue. It starts out by tying the two colors together, with a beginning loop in red. Holding one color in each hand, reach through the red loop with a forefinger and pull the blue cord through it. Tighten the red loop, with the opposite hand, which leaves you with a blue loop. Then you reach (with the other forefinger) through the blue loop and pull the red cord through. Tighten the blue loop. Repeat until your cord is long enough, then finish off. If you work with two strands of each color, the cord is a bit stiffer. But I believe that cording would not be as stiff as boning. Carole Newson-Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:54:29 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: SHoes All Bay Area Costumers: FYI I just saw an add in the paper for a shoe sale at Emporium. They are advertising a "Blue Cafe Boot" that looks like the "brogans" the Civil War ladies wear for $44.99. Erin Moody ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 12:05:56 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: 14th century: cloaks vs mantles You need to be careful with mantle references. A mantle-like garment is used specifically as church garb for women only a few years later, called a *Kirchenmantel*, it is heavily pleated, and documented clearly in the late 15th and early 16th cent. Often worn with a flying-nun like folded linen headress, called a *kirchenhaube*. For cold weather, both women and men also wear coats with sleeves during the middle ages and the renaissance, and also layered their clothing. I believe this is especially true the more "eastern europe" you get. I have seen gowns fully lined with fur, as well as people wearing many gowns in layers. There are also examples of 16th cent. muffs, and a dog-eared cap (which I have seen in 14th cent tapestries) called a *strickbarett*, it can have dog-earred flaps which either tie up over the head or down under the chin (like modern outdoorsmens' hats, and you can still buy them in Germany to this day). Many medieval styles were still popular in 16th cent. Germany in the lower classes, and often are drawn a bit more clearly then due to changes in artistic style. Peasants still typically wear what I call the "t-tunic with trews or hose look" well into the 16th cent. Good luck, but I find a good wool hat gloves, and a coat the most practical. I often use a turban-like headress to cover my ears, but will be making a strickbaret for myself this winter (too bad I don't knit!) Cloaks tend to be hard to cook in over open fires, as well as always falling open when you reach for anything, and I just hate it when the hood blows off! Our group loves to hold period campouts in the fall and winter months. Many early gowns are extra long to prevent drafts on the legs, but if you are outdoors, I recommend hiking skirts up to prevent the hem getting damp and chill (and heavy). Good woolen hose are a must too, and layers of hose are ok too. - --Julie Adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:55:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: RE: Thoughts on Knitting This is such an excellent topic for the list precisely because it is an 'unusual medium' for costuming, seems to have been a cottage craft anyone could do, and has much questionable evidence for how common it was, who was doing it, where and for what reasons (I guess knitting is a lot like sex). I can absolutely assure you and tell you that they did weave diagonal patterns, there is a sample of it from early fifteenth century in the Spanish Textiles book from 10th to the 15th century, I haven't looked, actually so I can't say if I have any others. > Teresa, Brenda, Catherine and all, thanks for an excellent posts. I > was throwing the knitting as a "household craft" idea out as a > theory to promote discussion and research, as I really don't know > (and want to), and am not a knitter myself. Questions: For > striped hose, did they weave the stripes on the diagonal? or sew > bias strips together? (I have seen the latter done and the result > was gastly.) Anyone else have success? If you had already had > the material, would sewing a seam up the back be much faster > than knitting? Would knitting take more materials in raw thread? > If most people would have wanted a linen lining anyway, is linen > practical to knit with? I don't see why block printing, or even painting would have been out of the question for designs, and they did weave wide striped fabric, perhaps they used that. Some wools are so excellent, you needn't even use the bias for springiness perhaps this would solve a lot of the problems. Have no idea how linen is with knitting, but they could get linen so fine it was transparent cloth, well gauze like, so I expect that wouldn't be a problem. > > Re: home craft knitting: I was sort of using 16th cent. smocking or > embroidery as an example in my mind. (and remember I have a > continental vs. English mindset). Though there were embroidery > guilds, there was also a lot of home embroidery (though region > dependent). In addition, though there are some lovely pictures of > upper class German Ren. ladies wearing chemises with smocked > necklines, when I dug into it, I also found a number of examples of > lower class women wearing smocked chemises and a variety of > apron styles. Years ago, I was told bluntly by several very > knowledgable people that smocking is not period for 16th cent. > Germans, and was only developed and used in the 19th century. > Currently I have a number of clear visual examples of 16th cent. > German smocking, though no written examples. Maybe they > didn't think it was important enough to write down? or maybe the > reference is not translated? (most likely) > > I am really excited about all the information there is on this subject > scattered about internationally, and being brought together here > on the list! The more we know, the more we will understand....:-) > --julie adams > Can't help you with smocking, just got a nice copy of a book on french textiles from the middle ages to modern times with nice examples of embroidery, alas its at home, again, sorry. What is good to see is everyone listing there examples to compare, for instance four different people talking of how they have seen examples of knitting madonnas, all point to the same picture, which to me equal one example of a madonna knitting, and implying a greater scarcity in examples than one could assume from the posters enthusiasm. I will but the book on history of knitting on my checklist when I have gone through the other 40 or 50 books on my checklist. :-) Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 17:31:30 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: raiment's pattern catalog At 12:31 PM 10/11/95, Kendra VanCleave wrote: > can someone tell me if the raiments pattern catalog is comparable > to the amazon drygoods catalog? meaning, if i have the amazon > drygoods catalog, should i bother getting the raiments one too? Good question. Should I get one or both? I only need patterns, so I'd just need the one Amazon drygoods catalog. > also, does someone have raiments address? PO Box 93095 Pasadena CA 91109 (town of my birth!) 818/797-2723 _Deirdre ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #219 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!