From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #221 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, October 12 1995 Volume 3, Number 221 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: raiment's pattern catalog Re: fun for Halloween Re: silk Re: Thought on Knitting Historic Smoking Re: Dyeing silk :( Re: Immortal Beloved review Re: Dyeing silk :( Teresa's reply on Knitting Smocking knitting fashions of the 1812 campfollowers Re: Dyeing silk :( Re: Dyeing silk :( Re: Dyeing silk :( RE: Thoughts on Knitting ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:31:10 -0700 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: raiment's pattern catalog bino@ella.mills.edu (Kendra VanCleave) asked: >can someone tell me if the raiments pattern catalog is comparable to the >amazon drygoods catalog? meaning, if i have the amazon drygoods catalog, >should i bother getting the raiments one too? Raiments all the way!!! The quality of the catalog is **so** much better - -- easier to read, clear pictures, includes approx. sewing level for patterns (handy for a slacker sewer like me). Plus the prices are generally lower. Both carry about 80% (or more) of the same patterns, but Raiments carries tons of books & supplies too. And shipping's usually pretty speedy, something Amazon often has problems with. I like Amazon's general catalog because of all the neat living history type stuff, but I can't stand that pattern catalog, esp. in comparison with the one, the only, Raiments! (No, this is not a paid advertisment, just a very satisfied customer!). - --Trystan fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:31:02 -0700 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: fun for Halloween andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) wrote: >Here is a fun idea for those who wish to participate. This Halloween my >husband and I are hosting a "come as you were" party, any historical >figure, real or fiction. >The catch is, since most of the guests are in SCA we've limited it to >AFTER 1650. When I first started the Famous Dead Person's Ball, I was working Ren. Faires, so I mandated that no faire folk could be famous dead Ren. people. Sometimes you gotta force people to stretch! Myself, I've got a backlog of famous dead people I want to be for Halloween - -- Virginia Woolf, Oscar Wilde, Audrey Hepburn, Emily Dickenson, Andy Warhol, Deanna Troi, Medea, Emily Bronte, almost anyone from Anne Rice's books... This year I'm Elizabeth Frankenstein (on her wedding night, as in the Kenneth Branagh movie), last year I was Jackie Kennedy (circa 1963), before that Mary Queen of Scots (half beheaded), then Constanze Mozart (my sig.other was Wolfgang). Speaking of "as you were," there are some great nametags that I always get for my party. They look like marble tombstones and they're printed "Hi, my name was ______." I've seen them at several party & stationary stores in the last three years. They might be good for your party... - --Trystan fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:47:52 -0400 From: MerrimacGA@aol.com Subject: Re: silk Teresa-- What a wonderful message you sent regarding the process of making silk! It was the first time I ever truly enjoyed reading a long email. After reading, I thought perhaps you and others on this list would enjoy something I have in one of my costuming books. Since it is mainly pictorial, if you can't find the book at your library or through a bookstore, let me know and I'll send you a copy of the page. The book is Fashion: The Mirror of History by Michael and Ariane Batterberry (Greenwich House, NY, 1982 ed., ISBN 0-517-388812). On page 56, it gives a picture of a series of 19th century watercolor drawings (in black and white in the book), ten in all, depicting the process of making silk in China. There is also a brief description of each picture's part in the process. Mary Macdonald ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 03:05:51 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Thought on Knitting >Ah joy, sumptuary legislation! Please tell me where one would go (who >isn't in England) to find the sumptuary laws passed in Henry VII's reign. >Thank you so much for this reference. > In my university library I found a reference for sumptuary laws in the 17th century for a seminar I was leading. (And I found it fascinating that *no* sumptuary laws were passed in Cromwell's reign!) I'll see if I can find them for Henry VII's reign for you when I return next week. (If I forget, feel free to remind me.) >I am sure Elizabeth liked the silk, I like silk, silk is nice, but think >of how much silk she had, unlike us she slept on silk, had silk >chausables for her services, had her bed draped with silk velvet, most of >her gowns were silk, and she probably had other silk stockings, but not >silk knitted stockings from Spain. I confess to leaning towards the >importance of the knitted phrase, but now that I have reminded myself >that they were from Spain, the importance was probably the dipolomatic >gift from Spain. The political play and tensions between England and >Spain were intense, and at times Elizabeth was courted by the King, so >she gets something from Spain it will be considered of important >diplomatic interest. The novely was not the silk, but probably the >knitting in fine silk. The fineness of the silk would have made the gift >exquisite, but the knitting, and the fact--most important to me--that it >was from Spain, would have made the gift. > England, of course, stole fashions from every major European centre...Spanish goods and fashions were very popular throughout the 16th century. I don't think the fact that they were Spanish would be very unique. The sources I read pointed to the knitting as the unusual aspect, and claimed that it started a big fashion trend. It may be that knitted stockings existed, but were not fine enough for nobility. (Just conjecture) I would think that the excitement would be for the fit that knitting can provide. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 03:05:50 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Historic Smoking On the smoking theme...it was very fashionable for Elizabethan men and women to smoke tobacco. It was considered good for the lungs and a cure for just about everything, including gangrene! Does anyone have pictoral sources for 16th century pipes? I would actually consider using one if it were pretty. Kathleen (Catriona) -just doing my best for the fight against gangrene... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 03:06:00 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Dyeing silk :( Teresa wrote: >(acutally pearls dye very easily also) Is this what black pearls are? Or are they naturally produced? (I'm thinking of Mary Stuart's famous black pearls) Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 03:06:01 -0400 From: kl94ag@badger.ac.BrockU.CA (Kathleen Leggat) Subject: Re: Immortal Beloved review >The problem I had with Immortal Beloved were the underpinnings. The gowns >were lovely though. > >Erin > What was wrong with the underpinnings? I understand that during the Romantic period women didn't wear corsets...at least I have read of Napoleon's Josephine wearing a gown that was actually dampened to cling transparently to her bosom. Kathleen (Catriona) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:02:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Dyeing silk :( On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Kathleen Leggat wrote: > > Teresa wrote: > > >(acutally pearls dye very easily also) > > Is this what black pearls are? Or are they naturally produced? > (I'm thinking of Mary Stuart's famous black pearls) > > Kathleen (Catriona) > > Black pearls are found naturally in pearl oysters in parts of Polynesia, and perhaps other places. Presumably, they could also be faked by dyeing, but I don't really know their prices--are they more or less expensive than other colors of pearl? Conrad Hodson ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 95 09:51:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Teresa's reply on Knitting I can seen I'm going to have to put a disclaimed on my posts 'This probably only applys to 16th century England!' I must confess I haven't researched the English wool trade specifically - my persona's interests have lain elsewhere (cookery), so I'm afraid this is just what I've 'picked up'. To start with, I know the English were exporting large quantities of wool to Flanders in the medieval period etc, but in what state was it exported - in the fleece or carded and spun? I know Flanders had a big weaving and dying industry, was there also a lot of spinning? I do back to another vague memory (which makes sense) of reading that until the Spinning Jenny was invented, it took a lot of spinners to keep one weaver in work. Certainly in the 16th century England is weaving a lot of wool, and I understood English wool always had a good reputation. Did this just apply to the raw wool, woven elsewhere, or was it English woven wool? Even if your top rank clothes were spun, woven and dyed out of the country (and some of the middle classes were wealthier than some of the nobility) that still leaves a lot of cloth for the rest of the population, most of them workers. Your argument reads as tho' there was virtually no wool woven in England until the 16th century, and I have real problems believing that - or perhaps I'm misinterpreting your statements. As to the role spinning played in the life of women, I can't say about previous to the 16th century (sorry, but I have enough trouble coping with the 16th century!), but I understood that through the medieval period was what you did when you haven't anything else to do - encouraged by the Catholic church's insistence on how troublesome idle women are. A drop spindle, when practiced, does not stop you wandering about, minding children, animals or a fire (carding ties you down more) but keeps the hands occupied - an evening and winter occupation, like carving love spoons? Anyway, I'm not sure the term 'cottage industry' really applies - its just part of the necessary preparation of the wool before the serious mens business of weaving gets started. There are many pictures of women spinning, in the margins of manuscripts. BTW I have never seen a 'knitted' bag, but have seen, in the V&A and illustrations, tapestry bags, with designs worked on. Do you know anything about the widespread bankruptcies in the English wool trade in the 1520s? For example, the Spring family of Suffolk went bankrupt in 1525 or 1526, I was told because of high tax. They had certainly been very wealthy, they built the Guild Hall at Lavenham and the church at Lavenham (both worth seeing if you are ever in Suffolk). The Buccaneers I'm afraid I didn't like this series - its not my period and the short piece I saw I thought the girls behaved like romps, and were always wandering about without anything on their heads (one of my pet hates), so I didn't watch most of it. Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice (a new version) is being shown in the UK at the moment, and is worth watching (although he's not Darcy!). Lovely clothes, strong sense of social class and behaviour, and some of the best presentations of dancing I've ever seen on screen - longways sets for as many as will. Toad of Toad Hall Not strictly costume, but I know I have mentioned Kentwell Hall a boring number of times. Some of the Monty Python team are making Toad of Toad Hall, and Kentwell Hall has been used as Toad Hall, and some of the grounds as other locations. so, if the film is ever finished, you might have a chance to see Kentwell Hall! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 95 10:14:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Smocking There's also that lovely self-portrait of Durer as a young man (wasn't he cute!) wearing a deeply smocked/gathered shirt (about 4 inches deep around the neck). As I understood it (and its not my area) smocking involves a top stitch - often decorative, certainly all the examples of 19th century smocking I've seen do. Is that the difference, that these German examples are 'gathered' not smocked? This kind of work just doesn't seem to turn up in England, some narrow gathering of shirts, faggoting of seams and embroidery. I think a more important question than 'could they have done it', is 'did they feel the need to do it'. To take an inexact parallel, if you will forgive a cookery reference for a moment. Most cooks today use a roux base to thicken a sauce (for non-cooks, heat fat such as butter, add flour and cook, slowly stir in liquid to desired thickness). This was not used up to and including the 16th century - they used breadcrumbs, ground almonds or, sometimes, rice flour, to thicken sauces. I have lost count of the number of conversations I've had with experienced 20th century cooks basically saying they could have known this technique, they had all the ingredients, so they could have used it. If they didn't do something - perhaps they had a good reason? Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 20:28:08 +0800 From: Writan Consulting Subject: knitting I've been knitting since I was small, and I remember as a child reading about the medieval knitting guilds, and feeling naughty that I was doing something that would have been forbidden! I've always meant to research knitting, but it seems to be one of those topics that historians find beneath them. However, I can add a few points: Knitting linen - linen isn't hard to knit - although it doesn't slip off the needles as easily as wool - but it *does* have a problem with 'spring'. It doesn't have any. So while a knitted linen shirt is not unreasonable, knitted linen leggings would get baggy quite quickly. And because it doesn't slip off the needles, linen usually knits up looser than the equivalent wool yarn. I haven't knitted silk - yet! - but it is likely to have some of the same problems. Knitting is more economical because unlike cloth, there is never any waste; you knit the shape you need. If you were manufacturing a lot of bias cut hose, you wouldn't waste much fabric, but if you were only making one or two pair, knitting would be far more economical; and since spinning is easy, you may not need to buy anything at all. I'm surprised no one has mentioned Charles 1st's knitted shirt. I have seen a photograph of it, and it is an amazing object, considering the lack of knitting records prior to this. I never expected something so complex. (This is all from memory - it's been a while since I saw the picture, but it's imprinted on my brain - so if I've got any of it wrong, please don't flame me!) It is very fine wool, with a pattern - diamonds I think - and a collar with a tab front with buttons. /anne... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:48:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Christine Maves Subject: fashions of the 1812 campfollowers On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Christine Maves wrote: > This list is very informative, Now I need to find out if anyone has > information on children clothing of 1812 specifically the British aspect > and the children would have been campfollowers in the War of 1812. The > boys are ages 3, 7 and 9, my husband portrays a soldier of 1812, more > specifically a corporal in The Glengarry Light Infantry, which is > actually a Canadian regiment formed by Canadians, not necessarily > British....I am also looking for ANY information on women that would have > followed their husbands unit during this time...I have a basic idea, but > recently I noticed when we go on events, the style of womens and > children's clothing is very broad, and I don't feel class is the problem, > I know we would have been "scum" lower class but still the portrayals are > varying, and the amount of information I have found is more towards the > Upper class, and their Rituals and Routines very, very little on > campfollowers, just info. on home life, well these people weren't at > home, they lived out of canvas tents. > Any info. would be greatly appreciated. > > > When at first you don't succeed....Try, Try, Try, Try again > > When at first you don't succeed....Try, Try, Try, Try again ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:20:57 -0500 From: deirdre@deeny.MV.COM (Deirdre) Subject: Re: Dyeing silk :( At 2:02 AM 10/12/95, Conrad Hodson wrote: > but I don't really know their prices--are they more or less > expensive than other colors of pearl? Much more expensive. _Deirdre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:01:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Dyeing silk :( > Teresa wrote: > > >(acutally pearls dye very easily also) > > Is this what black pearls are? Or are they naturally produced? > (I'm thinking of Mary Stuart's famous black pearls) > > Kathleen (Catriona) > > I don't know about Mary Stuart's, but there are natural black pearls, it had to do with the type of oyster producing a black nacre, I believe. Of course there were dipped pearls. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 9:26:20 -0500 (CDT) From: P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US Subject: Re: Dyeing silk :( >Teresa wrote: > >>(acutally pearls dye very easily also) > > Is this what black pearls are? Or are they naturally produced? >(I'm thinking of Mary Stuart's famous black pearls) > > Kathleen (Catriona) Actually, black pearls do occur naturally. They are very rare & can come in many shades - from pearl grey to deep blue-black. However, since black pearls are so rare and regular pearls take dye so easily, white pearls have been dyed to reproduce the look of black pearls. This has gone on for hundreds of years. The only instance that I can think of off the top of my head is the line from Colette's "Gigi" where Gigi & her aunt are talking about some society woman whose black pearls are "dipped" and who doesn't realize it. Sheryl J. Nance Kansas City MO Public Library p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:17:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Thoughts on Knitting >What is good to see is everyone listing there examples to compare, for >instance four different people talking of how they have seen examples of >knitting madonnas, all point to the same picture, which to me equal one >example of a madonna knitting, and implying a greater scarcity in >examples than one could assume from the posters enthusiasm. I will but >the book on history of knitting on my checklist when I have gone through >the other 40 or 50 books on my checklist. :-) Ahh, don't make rash assumptions! (Mind you, I don't knit, and I really don't want to get pulled into this discussion) But, I glanced at the afore-mentioned history of knitting book at the book store last week, and there were indeed several pictures of madonnas knitting. Everybody is quoting the same one (which I also noticed) because it's the one with the clearest picture of what is being knitted, so you can tell what the garment (or object) is. SO don't brush aside that particular book (if you are avid on knitting, that is) without glancing at it first! Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #221 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!