From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #223 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Thursday, October 12 1995 Volume 3, Number 223 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: RE: male fashion in late middle ages The Origin of Silk Re: Historic Smoking Re: career questions Five Cent. Italian Textiles (review) Re: Elizabeth's Stockings Re: Pride and Prejudice Re: Pride and Prejudice Re: Pride and Prejudice Knitting silk RE: male fashion in late middle ages Re: 1793 purple beaver hat! historic Barbie beaver hats & pearls Re: Knitting silk Re: historic Barbie Historic pipes thread Re: Re[2]: raiment's pattern catalog Re: Gloves & Buccaneers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 11:46:24 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: male fashion in late middle ages I found a zeroxed article in my pile'o' zeroxes called "The medieval footsoldier 1460-85, Part 2: Cut and Fashion" by Clive Bartlett and Gerry Embleton. It is a very well-written article on this period mens clothing, but my only reference from where it came is that it refers to Part 1 of the series of articles from a magazine refered to only as "MI" No. 7, and refers to a Part 3. Does anyone know what the name of the magazine referred to is? Does anyone know either of these authors or how I can get a hold of them? This looks like its about a Burgundian group, has anyone any idea who or how I can get a hold of them? Does anyone have Part 1 or Part 3 of this article? We still don't know what your nationality or year of interest is Rob....but these articles may be of use. julie_adams@corp.cubic.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 14:17:04 -0500 (EST) From: Drea Leed Subject: The Origin of Silk Question: how was silk discovered? From what I heard, It was first discovered by a chinese princess having tea under a mulberry tree. A coccoon dropped into her cup, and when she lifted it out the heat had dissolved the glue and the strands started unravelling. She thought to see what they would look like woven into a cloth...and voila. Has anyone else heard this legend? Drea Leed ============================= We are Microsoft Resistance is Futile Prepare to be Assimilated ============================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 12:32:49 -0700 From: CBecht@lmumail.lmu.edu (Cynthia Becht) Subject: Re: Historic Smoking > Does anyone have pictoral sources for 16th century pipes? I would >actually consider using one if it were pretty. > > Kathleen (Catriona) > -just doing my best for the fight against gangrene... I know this is probably not very helpful, but during my too-brief stay at Exeter College, Oxford one summer, I was shown an old image of a pipe-smoker. The entrance-way into the dining hall is adorned with a huge, gorgeous Jacobean wood panel/screen (sorry - I've forgotten the word for it) and the staff showed some of us where, hidden in the midst of the intricate design, there's a carving of a face in profile smoking a pipe. They said it was the earliest artistic rendition of tobacco smoking but I'm not sure whether that's Exeter College lore or not. - Cynthia Becht cbecht@lmumail.lmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 14:35:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: career questions Andrea: Yes, there are a few theatre costume people on this net (alot of the SCAdians seem to be theatre oriented as well). I am not in the SCA but I do a good deal of historical costume work for the stage. Yes, there is a good deal of work out there for designers, costumers, craftspeople and painter dyers (I do all 4). A good place to look is ArtSearch, a bi-monthly employment periodical. It is a good over view of what is out there. Good luck with school. I'm 3 semesters away from my MFA so I know where you're coming from. Kat Katherine L. Rodman Gainesville, FL afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu "Historical accuracy and costume design do not neccessarily go hand in hand" John Conklin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 12:04:56 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Five Cent. Italian Textiles (review) Recently in the Antiquarian section of Moes books in Berkeley CA, I purchased a wonderful book on Italian Textiles: "Five Centuries of Italian Textiles, 1300-1800" A selection from the Museo Tessuto Prato, by Rosalia Bonito Fanelli, publication sponsored by Cassa di Risparmi e Depositi di Prato, 1981 NO ISBN! This is a catalog for a traveling exhibit! This softcover book is 349 pages long and primarily consists photos of cloth, about 1/3 are big color closeups, so close you can see the fibers, there are also some photos of various art for comparison to the fabric patterns. It mostly shows a variety of patterned woven fabric (brocade, damasque, etc). It groups fabrics by century and pattern category, such as "15th century italian velvets with patterns based on diagonal rows of pomegranites on serpentine trunks". It is from an Industrial Museum from the Prato region from my understanding and has english text. This book has the best collection of closeup photos of period fabric that I have ever seen. Each cloth example shown is described with fiber content and weave, and in the back of the book is a detailed discription, including warp/weft, number of picks per cm, and fabric width, with color of each fiber in the design too, and what colors each warp and weft thread is. For Renaissance costumers I would put this in the "If you can find it, BUY it." category. You've just GOT to see it to believe it! Has anyone seen this exhibit? Has anyone been to this museum? julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 15:45:07 -0800 From: gjuka@cnw.com (Gjuka) Subject: Re: Elizabeth's Stockings Good day to all, I kept waiting for someone else to bring it up, but I haven't seen this posted. It wasn't that the stockings were knit, or silk, or Spanish. They were among the first of the machine knitted stockings. My source is Accessories of Dress which I have seen cited here before, although I am fairly certain I have seen this in other references. A of D gives 1589 as the date of the first knitting machine. Norma gjuka@cnw.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 09:07:03 +1000 (EST) From: Carolyn Fraser Subject: Re: Pride and Prejudice > > Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice (a new version) is being shown in the UK > at the moment, and is worth watching (although he's not Darcy!). Lovely > clothes, strong sense of social class and behaviour, and some of the best > presentations of dancing I've ever seen on screen - longways sets for as > many as will. Please please tell us more. Is this a movie version, or a made for TV - and who has made it? We don't get access to things here until months (seems like years) after we read all of the overseas comments. (The madness of George III just opened here yesterday!!) Carolyn Fraser Brisbane, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 16:33:32 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Pride and Prejudice >> Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice (a new version) is being shown in the UK >> at the moment, and is worth watching (although he's not Darcy!). Lovely >> clothes, strong sense of social class and behaviour, and some of the best >> presentations of dancing I've ever seen on screen - longways sets for as >> many as will. A new one? What was wrong with the last BBC one? I can't imagina a better Darcy than David Rintoul. Erin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 16:35:34 -0700 From: erin1@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Erin Harvey Moody) Subject: Re: Pride and Prejudice We don't get access to things here until months >(seems like years) after we read all of the overseas comments. (The >madness of George III just opened here yesterday!!) > >Carolyn Fraser >Brisbane, Australia You poor thing! Speaking of which, does anyone know why King George's costumes were not nominated for an Academy Award last year? I was in Pennsylvania last year when it came out and I missed all the info from behind the scenes. Erin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 07:25:37 +1000 From: Sarah Randles Subject: Knitting silk Can someone give me a supplier for the silk used with the very fine needles to make the bags, stockings etc? (Australian for preference, but I will mail order) I have the needles, and tryed to make one of the bags some years ago, but could only find wool, and in the weight necessary to get the right stitch guage, it broke when the knitting transferred from one needle to another, so I could get it to work in flat knitting but not round. Sarah **************************************************************************** ******** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 00:16:47 GMT From: db-cos@westmore.demon.co.uk (David Brewer) Subject: RE: male fashion in late middle ages In message julie_adams@corp.cubic.com writes: > I found a zeroxed article in my pile'o' zeroxes called > "The medieval footsoldier 1460-85, Part 2: Cut and Fashion" by > Clive Bartlett and Gerry Embleton. It is a very well-written article > on this period mens clothing, but my only reference from where it > came is that it refers to Part 1 of the series of articles from a > magazine refered to only as "MI" No. 7, and refers to a Part 3. > Does anyone know what the name of the magazine referred to is? "MI" = "Military Illustrated". Remaining stocks of early issues were bound together and sold in hardback. > Does anyone know either of these authors or how I can get a hold > of them? This looks like its about a Burgundian group, has > anyone any idea who or how I can get a hold of them? You might like to purchase their most recent collaboration: "English Longbowman 1330-1515" Warrior series, Osprey. One supposes you may contact them through Osprey: Michelin House, 81, Fulham Road, London, SW3 6Rb. Clive Bartlett is a re-enactor, archer, historian with (I think) "1471" an English re-enactment group. Gerry Embleton is an historical illustrator, runs a company creating and clothing life-size figures ("Time Machine") and is with "the Company of Saynte George" an English/Swiss/German/French/Italian re-enactment group for the 1470s. To contact Mr Embleton try: Time Machine, 1425 Onnens, Switzerland. > Does anyone have Part 1 or Part 3 of this article? I could find them easily enough. - -- David Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 09:36:26 +1000 (EST) From: Carolyn Fraser Subject: Re: 1793 purple beaver hat! On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Fiona Thorne wrote: > Carolyn, > > Interesting reading. > > On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Carolyn Fraser wrote: > > > > mention sleeves that just turned the elbow with robins to them! or the > > elegance of a dimity cloak with muslin trimmings! and a straw bonnet with > > green ribbons! which, however charming in the eyes of others, did by no > > means to me make up for the warmth of my good great coat and my beaver > > I don't get the bit about the sleeves. Did they end just below the elbow? > What do robins have to do with sleeves? Me thought they were a bird? > Embroidered possibly? If so, where? > > Fiona > I wish I could answer all of the above. Unfortunately this is the only real reference to clothing in the volume. (I was actually searching the book for a reference to a particular language.) I thought some of you who are familiar with this time period could tell us what she is referring to in the details of her dress. I'm afraid I can't quite picture the "purple beaver hat with steel buckle"! Does anyone know if this would be dyed fur? (beaver is so dark) or perhaps felted fur? (what a way to ruin such beautiful fur in either case!) Carolyn Fraser Brisbane, Australia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 95 19:49:39 EDT From: andreah@cpsnet.com (Andrea Harrison) Subject: historic Barbie Has anyone been to a toy store lately?!?!? I went to buy my niece her first Barbie and couldn't believe my eyes! They now have medieval Barbie and "Scarlett"Barbie and "Rhett" Ken along with Irish and Native American and Chinese Barbie. I think I'm gonna start collecting her again. The costumes aren't too off in authenticity either. COOL!!! Now a reason to play with dolls again!!! Andrea andreah@cpsnet.com "There's too much to see waiting in front of me, I know that I just can't go wrong." Jimmy Buffet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:37:57 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: beaver hats & pearls I just wanted to be sure everyone knew - Beaver hats (or Castor hats) are so named because the felt of the hat is made from beaver fur. This is not like a Davey Crockett hat with a beaver tail! Black pearls do come from the South Seas. Larger size pearls also come from the South Seas, and smaller pearls come from Japan. (If I remember correctly the break happens around the 9mm size.) In the South Seas, they are able to produce the larger sizes, so they don't bother harvesting them when they're small. Currently, all cultured pearls that you can buy are dyed. Cultured pearls are those made by inserting a Mother-Of Pearl core into the oyster & harvesting the pearl after the core has been covered with nacre. (As opposed to nacre surrounding a small speck of irritant in natural pearls.) Cultured pearls will be of different qualities due to many factors, including the thickness of the nacre. Buyer beware! The culturing process was developed & patented around 1911. When cultured pearls became available, the prices of natural pearls dropped! Natural pearls still cost significantly more than cultured pearls. I suppose the prices dropped because owning pearls became more common. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 20:38:41 -0400 From: BBrisbane@aol.com Subject: Re: Knitting silk Unfortunately, I only have US sources. Can you get Piecework Magazine? Itsfrom Interweave Press, 201 East Fourth Street, Dept. A-P, LOveland Colorado 80537, (800)645-3675. It has several advertisers that do mail order and you could get 20/2 or 30/2 silk yarn from. good luck! Brenda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:24:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Alice Morgan" Subject: Re: historic Barbie Well the quality of the "historic" outfits from Mattel leaves a lot to be desired, but there are some good aftermarket outfits for Barbie, and patterns as well. The cost of material is a lot lower than a full size outfit and storage is easier. Think of it as a good place to trial or display historic outfits, after all the original intent was for Barbie to be a fashion doll. For more info about barbie, there is a mailing list: fashion-l@gasun.ga.unc.edu Its a moderated list, so you'll need to send to fashion-l-request@gasun.ga.unc.edu to subscribe. Also check out: http://d.armory.com/~zenugirl/barbie.html Alice Andrea Harrison said something close to this: > > Has anyone been to a toy store lately?!?!? I went to buy my niece > her first Barbie and couldn't believe my eyes! They now have > medieval Barbie and "Scarlett"Barbie and "Rhett" Ken along with > Irish and Native American and Chinese Barbie. I think I'm gonna > start collecting her again. The costumes aren't too off in > authenticity either. COOL!!! Now a reason to play with dolls again!!! > Andrea > > andreah@cpsnet.com - -- Alice Morgan Spotted Dog Systems Never attribute to malice that which is adequately described by stupidity ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 21:22:20 EDT From: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu Subject: Historic pipes thread Several years ago here in Rochester, NY a mass grave was discoved on the grounds of a park where there used to be a hospital/home for indigents. The anthropologists from our museum who studied the remains were able to identify some of them from old medical records...One was a man who was a pipe smoker - the kaolin clay of his pipe had worn a circular groove in his upper and lower teeth! So even EMPTY pipes can cause problems! BTW, kaolin in its loose form is the KAO in KAO-pectate (Kaolin & Pectin) for diarrhea...! Bonnie Glickman B) - -------------------------------------------------|=|=|-------- Bonnie Glickman =|=|= Bio. Dept.; Monroe Comm. Coll. |=|=| Rochester, NY 14623 (716) 292-2725 =|=|= email: bglickman@eckert.acadcomp.monroecc.edu |=|=| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 19:04:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Re[2]: raiment's pattern catalog Another vote for going with Raiments if you get just one catalog. I find them more likely to have what I want and get it to me when I want it than Amazon, although some of this is timezone related. Also, Gary the Ook is on this list and you can yell at him if you have a problem! (Don't hit me, Gary--no, No, NO!!!!) *************************************************************************** Sarah E. Goodman goodston@well.sf.ca.us goodston@netcom.com goodston@river.org Senior Designer & Chief Cat Herder, Wee Cottage, Daly City, California, USA *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 19:09:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Gloves & Buccaneers > > One question: In some scenes, women are eating or drinking tea > with their gloves on. I was told (by my mother, and reinforced by > Miss Manners) that this was a big no-no. In The Buccaneers, the > gloved eating scenes seemed to take place mostly outdoors. (I don't > remember seeing anyone eating indoors with gloves on, though it may > be there.) Recheck Miss Manners. I'm reasonably sure she explains the traditional as well as modern manners about gloves (and hats) in one or another of the books (but don't have them with me right now). One definately leaves ones gloves on if they are lady-gloves rather than warm-gloves. (This of course assumes that one is NOT eating fried chicken with one's fingers!) ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #223 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!