From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #228 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Monday, October 16 1995 Volume 3, Number 228 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: purple beaver hat leather dying RE: Teresa's reply on Knitting Re: Spinning leather smells Re: watches Re: Cavalier gowns Re: fabric questions U.K. Medieval Knitting Meeting Teresa and Not Knitting RE: purple beaver hat RE: Shoelaces Re: Teresa and Not Knitting COSTUME: Vinegar setting ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 09:29:24 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: purple beaver hat I went to the French & Indian War event at Ft. Ligonier (PA) this weekend & got to see a beaver fur. Someone wondered how the beaver fur could become purple, since beavers are dark. On the fur that I saw, only the guard hairs are dark. The undercoat was a light brown or taupe color. The undercoat is the fluffy part that can be felted, apparently as easily as wool. The guard hairs, being long and sleek, would have been removed before felting. The fur was even lighter around the belly, but I forgot to look close enough to see if this was due to the guard hairs or if the undercoat was lighter there, as well. Anyway, the undercoat is light enough to dye bright colors like purple. Even the black felt hats were dyed. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 09:50:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Christine Maves Subject: leather dying On the subject of leather dying, for WW leather, my hubby stated the they used...Used oil from the trucks to get the blackened look on their leather...of course I know nothing on this topic... When at first you don't succeed....Try, Try, Try, Try again ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 08:54:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: RE: Teresa's reply on Knitting Dear Edward, this is actually Carolines question to my statement that wool was being exported out of England as raw wool in the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth centuries, a statement I believe could be quite easily proven as I have finally acquired the entire exchequer rolls for English exports of cloth and wool, and some hides for the years 1320 to the sixteenth century, they thought it couldn't be done, and then they did it! ;-> (Evil grin) As well as several of John Munro's excellent books on economics and wool and buillion with Flanders, and Eileen Powers speeches, I am greedily awaiting any other recommended sourcers, however. That definitely starts to change in the sixteenth century, but I think you know more about that era, and Caroline, than I do. > >Carolines: | To start with, I know the English were > | exporting large quantities of wool to Flanders in the medieval period etc, > | but in what state was it exported - in the fleece or carded and spun? Back to Edward:> > Wool was generally exported in the form of undyed cloth, which was > frequently dyed in the Netherlands and reimported into England. This > caused much consternation among English dyers, and in the 17th Century, > James I banned the export of undyed cloths. This ban was a major > disaster for the English wool industry, since the English dying > industry lagged far behind the rest of Europe technologically and there > was no market for English dyed cloth. Prior to this ban, wool was > England's major expert -- really, its only major export. Afterwards, > the English wool industry never really recovered. > > > | I know Flanders had a big weaving and dying industry, was there also a lot of > | spinning? > > Flanders and Holland tended to produce linen rather than wool, their > climate and territory being more suited to growing flax than raising > ship. The Netherlands were so closely associated with this product that > one type of find imported linen became known as "Holland." In England, > it was just the opposite. The English tried to compete in linen -- in > Elizabeth's time, I believe, there laws passed required every owner of > land above a certain size to set apart a portion for the growing of > flax -- but never really succeeded. Boy is this a switch, England couldn't weave wool as fine as the centers in Flanders and Italy in the thirteenth - first half of fifteenth centuries, English woven wool hadn't been big since Charlemagnes time. Much wool was bought off the sheep, a season ahead, which caused massive problems when scabies broke out at certain periods in England in the fourteenth century, otherwise it was raw, in the bag a different price or course between washed and unwashed, both were heavily exported. It was rarely carded or spun (except for the small domestic use) and almost never woven during the later middle ages, England didn't have the technology and industry set up, the larger skilled labor force, and couldnt produce wool cloth as fine as the continent. Alas, I don't thing the import laws from the time have been put together like export and I don't have a copy of Rogers Thorold History of Agriculutral Prices in England, which I have been searching for for years now. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 09:04:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Spinning Caveat: Fourteenth century England is my area, but in a word, no. I have seen picture of and descriptions for the various methods of spinning in the fourteenth century, which I will say was extremely different from the twelfth century because of revolutions in technology in the industry, but they didn't use spinning wheels in fourteenth century that I have ever see or read about, at least not of the kind found in america a century or two ago. Teresa I would give some sources, but they are fourteenth century, which I have said is dramatically different than 12th, and I can't remember the exact title anyway. > > I have a question regarding the history of spinning. > > Was spinning common, or even around in the 12th century? If so, were their > wheels similar to the colonial type or were they totally different? > The reason I ask is because my husband and I plan to open a medieval theme > store in the spring, and while he is making his bows in the store for people > to watch (yes, we will be dressed in period clothing), I'm wondering if it > would be "proper" for me to be there with a spinning wheel or not. Your > input would be appreciated, otherwise I'm going to end up just sweeping the > floor and picking herbs all day! > > Krista. > > sunfire@muskoka.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 95 21:52:54 PDT From: ches@tristero.io.com Subject: leather smells Ok I got one....I went to a goodwill and found the most georgeous pair of bootlets. Problem: Kitty kat went on them. How do you get THAT smell out?! I tried saddle soap and it did not work. I do not know when said cat went on them, I bought them as is. - ------------------------------------- Ciao Ches E-mail: Ches@io.com This message was sent by Chameleon - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 95 10:02 CDT From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Re: watches > Eleanor of Aquitane was the first woman in England to carry a pocket watch. > It was given to her in 1152 by Henry II after she gave him one to remind him > when to come home from the hunt. He was so touched by this that he had a > copy made for her and had it engraved with "seize the day". I digress... > > My husband and I are involved in the SCA. His character lives in 1196 AD, > he carries a pocket sundial and it is perfectly period. Although women had > no "need" for such things some noblewomen did carry them. > Please be careful when calling pocket sundials watches, for fear of leading people astray. The first mechanical escapement clock dates to late 13th-early 14th century. These clocks were BIG. Portable sundials date back at least to Anglo-Saxon England, and remained popular even in late 16th-early 17th century Germany. I'm not sure when watches as such first appeared, but I think it was around this same time. ****************************** Wendy Robertson Serials Cataloging University of Iowa (319) 335-5894 wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 10:02:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sharon L. Nelson" Subject: Re: Cavalier gowns I did manage to do 2 versions of the Hill & Bucknell with the stomacher & tabbed jacket; in both cases I did a paper mockup, altered that a fair bit, then a 'denim'* mockup and altered that some more. It was a lot of fiddling, but once I got the patterns right it wasn't hard to put together after that & looked pretty good! * I get this heavy white twill from the Aurora Bleachery that looks like 'white denim' to me. I prefer working mockups in it to muslin as its heavier weight better simulates the heavier fabrics I'm going to make the final version in. Sharon =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= + Sharon L. Nelson sln@noctrl.edu + | Systems Administrator, Computer Support | + North Central College, Naperville, IL 60540 + =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 10:13:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: fabric questions This will be a problem, we both spell our name the same way, sign it the same way and don't have signatures. You aren't particularly interested in fourteenth century England. Sigh, I guess I'll start signing my name Teresa, as in 14th c. England > > > I'm trying to recreate a dress from Milan c.1493. The description says, > "...had a veste made for her of alternating horizontal bands of gold > tissue (tela d'oro) and of crimson velvet. And over the velvet she had a > zellosiz a mandoli of silver threads..." > > My question is, what is gold tissue in this context? > > Thank you > Teresa > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 95 16:12:05 BST From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Subject: U.K. Medieval Knitting Meeting I just got details of a conference in Manchester, England on 24-25th March 1996. Thought this list might have someone interested. It's title is "Knitting & Networking - Setting up a framework for the study of medieval Knitting in Britain. To quote from the flyer:- "This very promising meeting will take place from Teatime on Sunday 24 to teatime on Monday 25th March 1996. Attendance can therefore be easily combined with a visit to THE TEXTILE SOCIETY's Antiques textile fair at the Armitage Centre on Sunday and/or participation in the EUROPEAN TEXTILE NETWORK conference, starting Tuesday. The first aim of the meeting is to define what constitutes knitting by looking at various early textile structures. There will be a hands-on session and a lively debate is expected. The second aim is to establish channels of collaboration between THE EARLY KNITTING HISTORY GROUP (U.K. and Spain), THE MANCHESTER MEDIEVAL TEXTILE PROJECT and possibly other groups or individuals. The programme will include: Noemi Speiser - A REVIEW OF EARLY OFF-LOOM TEXTILE TECHNIQUES Dr Richard Rutt - JEWELLERS KNITTING?: TRICHINOPOLY CHAIN Montest Stanley - SOME STRUCTURES AND TERMINOLOGY ISSUES Plus contributions by Karen Finch, Kirstie Buckland and others Dr Gale Owen-Crocker, Dr Elizibeth Coatsworth and Maria Fitzgerald - THE MANCHESTER MEDIEVAL TEXTILES PROJECT: AIMS AND DATABASE Eulalia Morral and silvia Carbonell - THE TERRASSA TEXTILE MUSEUM'S NEW DATABASE, AND THE SPANISH E.K.H.G. Residential tickets with meals are 61.50 (41.50 unwaged) down to 24.00 (20.00 unwaged) for no accomodation or meals. extra nights accomodation are 20.00 for bed & breakfast (all prices in pounds sterling). Further details & bookings from Dr Gale Owen Crocker, The Manchester Medieval Textiles Project, University of Manchester, Department of English Language and Literature, Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL, U.K. (Send a S.A.E. and 10 pounds sterling if you wish to reserve a place) If you wish to reply to me you'll have to email direct as I don't have time to read the list at the moment so I had to unsubscribe :-( Jennifer jennyb@pdd.3com.com ------------------------------ Date: 16 Oct 95 16:09:00 BST From: Mrs C S Yeldham Subject: Teresa and Not Knitting This is getting interesting! Flanders must have had a massive spinning 'industry' to cope with all that unspun wool coming in, and presumably had good spinners to spin the fine yarns for the fine weaving. I also have a (vague) memory of reading about the Huegenots coming into England after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes and bringing their weaving skills with them (late 16th century?). Anyone any idea. However, we would also have to answer the question of how much wool went abroad as opposed to being woven in this country. Teresa has made it clear the exported wool was sent out untreated (or just washed), but how much of domestic production was exported? The English may not have been as skilled as those in Flanders, but could have been doing lower standard wools. We must either postulate a domestic weaving industry raising its standards in the 16th century, or a new weaving industry being founded in the 16th century - and a foreign influence in either case. Surely the former is more likely? I'm afraid I still stand by medieval/early modern women spinning, mainly using the drop spindle for convenience, whenever they had spare time, even in England! On the other hand, maybe they were doing Opus Anglicanum at every opportunity! Caroline (and you don't want to see the kind of thread I produce with a drop spindle!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 10:38:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: purple beaver hat > Someone wondered how the beaver fur could become purple, since >beavers are dark. On the fur that I saw, only the guard hairs are >dark. The undercoat was a light brown or taupe color. The undercoat >is the fluffy part that can be felted, apparently as easily as wool. >The guard hairs, being long and sleek, would have been removed before >felting. Beaver felts even better than wool: it has barbs on it and the fibers grip each other really well. This (I'm told) is the driving reason for the whole New World fur trade: the great felt from beavers. Beaver felt was also desired because it didn't die in the rain - it would dry out and retain the original shape (because of those barbs?). Other felt hats are ruined once wet. However, the felting process involved mercury, and drove hatters insanse. Hence "mad as a hatter" and Alice In Wonderland's "Mad Hatter". Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 10:45:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Shoelaces AGLET (also AIGLET) (also AIGUILLETTE) a metal sheath or tag at the end of a shoelace, ribbon, etc. 1) note two or three spellings. Could be helpful in Scrabble. 2) term DOES apply to the metal as well as the plastic ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 11:44:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Teresa and Not Knitting > This is getting interesting! Flanders must have had a massive spinning > 'industry' to cope with all that unspun wool coming in, and presumably had > good spinners to spin the fine yarns for the fine weaving. > > I also have a (vague) memory of reading about the Huegenots coming into > England after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes and bringing their > weaving skills with them (late 16th century?). Anyone any idea. I believe Flanders did have a massive spinning industry, but don't forget Italy, which was a close second, and at times exceeded Flemish demand for English wool. Italians are as cozy with wool, cozier actually than silk as the Flemish. English wool as cloth was then exported to England, which fed most of the demand, not the domestic industry which really did produce far inferior cloth. The cloth also was popular with the paynim and infidels, the moors and the spanish, the holy roman empire and even Byzantium. Silk and wool just are not interchangeable for a lot of things, and were both in demand and used. All wool went through Calais, however. > > > However, we would also have to answer the question of how much wool went > abroad as opposed to being woven in this country. Teresa has made it clear > the exported wool was sent out untreated (or just washed), but how much of > domestic production was exported? The English may not have been as skilled > as those in Flanders, but could have been doing lower standard wools. We > must either postulate a domestic weaving industry raising its standards in > the 16th century, or a new weaving industry being founded in the 16th > century - and a foreign influence in either case. Surely the former is > more likely? Much more wool was being exported from the country than kept in, even poor grade Scottish, Irish and Welsh wool (This isn't bias, is was poor stuff) was being exported, to Europe. They were definitely doing lower quality wool, but not a significant quantity compared to the raw wool was being exported. Of course I could just go home and check the book with the charts of exports per port per year. Flanders and Italy, and even Germany (h.r.e.) offered various grades of wool depending on price, dye, and wool type so the contintent did not need poor quality english wool cloth. Broadcloth was the cloth England chiefly exported-I believe. I really wish I had my books here, I am sure a mistake will slip in, so don't take any of this as gospel. My opinion would be the latter is more likely, the foreign influence of the Flemish weavers into England had a tremendous effect on the industry, detrimental to Flanders, positive to England. > I'm afraid I still stand by medieval/early modern women spinning, mainly > using the drop spindle for convenience, whenever they had spare time, even > in England! > On the other hand, maybe they were doing Opus Anglicanum at every > opportunity! > I was under the impression that Opus Anglicanum was never from England. It was actually done in Belgium or someother place, and just picked up the title for the English reputation at lavish embroidery which in the fourteenth century was held to be used more extensively in England than on the continent. This could just be Apocyphal if someone could clear this up, I would be grateful. Teresa, 14th c. England > > Caroline > (and you don't want to see the kind of thread I produce with a drop > spindle!) > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 10:15:08 -0700 From: ccary@tiara (Christina Cary) Subject: COSTUME: Vinegar setting Regarding using vinegar and salt as a mordant--here's some info from another list I'm on. Christina - --- Forwarded mail from Sew-L-Digest@nbi.com - ------------------------------ From: Rose Marie Tondl Date: Fri, 08 Sep 95 16:43:45 CDT Subject: Re: Pre-washing wool Alice and other about using vinegar to set dye, Research at the University in 1987-88 was done on the setting of dyes in new cotton fabrics. The dyes represented 3 classes of dyes. Red and blue dyes were used. Setting treatments included copper sulfate treatment, salt solution, salt and vinegar and salt, vinegar and alum solution. None of the dye setting treatments significantly reduced color loss or staining during laundering for any of the dyes. Some of the treatments actually increased rather than decreased color loss and staining. Home setting treatments in this study were a waste of time of the consumer's time, energy and money. I would want to know what basis vinegar will set dye in silk. Where is the research that says it works? The dye companies are the best ones to test their fabrics to be sure the colors do not bleed. For further information about this research check at a University for a copy of the Clothing and Textiles Research Journal, Vol. 7 Summer 1989 issue for the article by Dr. Patricia Crews. Hope this enlightens everyone. Rose Marie Tondl Extension Clothing Specialist txcd005@unlvm.unl.edu University of Nebraska-Lincoln - ------------------------------ - ---End of forwarded mail from Sew-L-Digest@nbi.com - -- My first name is: Christina My last name is: Cary Editor, Technical Publications E-mail address: ccary@sgi.com _______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #228 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!