From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #230 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Tuesday, October 17 1995 Volume 3, Number 230 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: RE: top stitching and stabstitching Cotehardie Thank you! another Wellville note Is silk ribbon colour-fast? FW: another Wellville note Ribbon? Re: Knitting in the Middle Ages RE: Interesting costume accessory Re: Teresa and not knitting... RE: 1815 Ribbon? Re: ribbon? RE: ribbon? Musketeers' Rapiers Frankish costume historical costuming RE: purple beaver hat Re: Knitting in the Middle Ages Glove Etiquette? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 09:16:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: RE: top stitching and stabstitching I did some volunteer work for Plimoth Plantation, and they use stabstitching as taught to them by Janet Arnold herself. Let me see if I can explain this in words... From the inside of the garment, drive you needle to the outside at an angle. Do a tiny backstitch, going back to the inside at an angle. Do a tiny backstitch on the inside, going to the outside at an angle. You're making X's inside the layers of fabric, with only tiny backstitches visible on your outside and inside surfaces. Oh dear, maybe I can draw it and it'll be clearer. ___ ___ outside fabric ----\-/---\-/--------------- / / / \ / \ / \/ \ inside fabric --/-----/\-----\------------ / /__\ \ This makes a nice, tight finish and goes very quickly. Does this make any sense? I never realized how hard it could be to describe something!! Astrida ************************************************************************* Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:41:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Annikki Weston Subject: Cotehardie Thank you! Just wanted to say thank you to all who responded! It was surprising how little my prof expected, though. Just about every other person brought in a photo of their kids or other young relatives--I suspect because they didn't think to bring in anything, and had photos in their wallets already. And most didn't even know how to say whatever the relationship was in French. :P The prof didn't even realize I was dressed oddly--particolor cotehardie, hood, and braided-up hair--until she walked right by me and nearly tripped over the cloak I had draped over the back of my chair. Oh well, it was fun, anyways! :) Thanks again! Nikki weston@tardis.svsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 1995 09:33:16 -0500 From: "Witt Meggan" Subject: another Wellville note I just rented Road to Wellville, and enjoyed the movie , esp the costumes.I noticed that one of the "doctors" was wearing Birkenstock-type sandals,(a design choice which made an obvious statement about the eccentricity of the character). Does anyone know if this type of sandal was around during this period,or was this a "breach of authenticity" for dramatic (and comic) purposes? I suspect that since sandal-type footwear is "older than dirt", this may have been a legitimate use of the sandals.(It was a hoot to see them during the stiff period dance scene!) I ask because I used Birkenstocks for the "friar" characters in a contemporary version of Romeo and Juliet. (I thought I was encorporating the "hip & trendy" with the "historical", but maybe the result was just "hysterical") Anyway, does anybody know where this type of footwear began? Is the brandname new? Did it borrow an old style? thanks for any info,Meggan ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 1995 10:12:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Is silk ribbon colour-fast? Greetings everyone: Is the silk ribbbon which is widely available for silk ribbon embroidery colour-fast? I can't remember the name of the brand I've purchased. I'm interested in applying some dark blue silk ribbon to a pale yellow silk vest of my husband's (c. 1812) to get a striped look, but I'm wondering if this isn't a recipe for disaster with our hot, humid summers. The vest material was expensive - should I wash the ribbon first? (Or should I just get a life?) Any advice welcome. Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 1995 15:21:10 -0500 From: "Witt Meggan" Subject: FW: another Wellville note _______________________________________________________________________________ From: Witt Meggan on Tue, Oct 17, 1995 9:33 AM Subject: another Wellville note To: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com I just rented Road to Wellville, and enjoyed the movie , esp the costumes.I noticed that one of the "doctors" was wearing Birkenstock-type sandals,(a design choice which made an obvious statement about the eccentricity of the character). Does anyone know if this type of sandal was around during this period,or was this a "breach of authenticity" for dramatic (and comic) purposes? I suspect that since sandal-type footwear is "older than dirt", this may have been a legitimate use of the sandals.(It was a hoot to see them during the stiff period dance scene!) I ask because I used Birkenstocks for the "friar" characters in a contemporary version of Romeo and Juliet. (I thought I was encorporating the "hip & trendy" with the "historical", but maybe the result was just "hysterical") Anyway, does anybody know where this type of footwear began? Is the brandname new? Did it borrow an old style? thanks for any info,Meggan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:41:01 -0600 (CST) From: BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Subject: Ribbon? The silk ribbon question brought to mind a question I have been puzzling over for about 3 years now. In a description of a native american woman c1815 wearing a dress with ribbons on it, the author describes the ribbon as being 4-5" wide. What types of material would this be made of? What sort of look or feel would it have? Can this same type of ribbon be purchased today? If it was silk, how would regular washing affect it? If anybody has any experience with ribbon for use on historical costumes or ribbon as a trade item used in the fur trade, I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this. thanking you in advance, brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 10:24:33 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: Re: Knitting in the Middle Ages Last night I ran across a photo of some finely knitted socks in 20,000 years of Fashion by F. Boucher. They were documented as 7th cent. from Switzerland and thought to have been owned by an Abbot. They were knitted in a circular fashion. I think they were approximately plate 268. julie adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 10:42:10 PDT From: julie_adams@corp.Cubic.COM Subject: RE: Interesting costume accessory I have seen several other examples of baby walkers in German woodcuts of the 16th cent., though many had solid balls of wood instead of wheels. While not practical in a campout situation or on a dirt floor, I think it would slide well on a wood floor. They had very broad bases and wide shelves around the child to limit what the child could reach. I have also seen one dated approx. 1610 that was a painting of an English family. The most common way of controlling a walking toddler was to tie it to ones apron strings, or with a separate cord called a leading string. After all, without cabinet baby locks, and with open fires and kettles of boiling water easily accessable in every home, how better to keep a child from wandering randomly? I personnally have used leading strings effectively on my toddler at events where I did not wish him to fall into firepits and considered it a part of his historical costume....So far, he is two, and it has been a blast researching and making itty bitty costumes for him. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 17:38:02 +0200 From: M.DEVOGEL@student.anu.edu.au (Miesje de Vogel) Subject: Re: Teresa and not knitting... Hey, yet another thing I know something about! > >This is getting interesting! Flanders must have had a massive spinning >'industry' to cope with all that unspun wool coming in, and presumably had >good spinners to spin the fine yarns for the fine weaving. > >I also have a (vague) memory of reading about the Huegenots coming into >England after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes and bringing their >weaving skills with them (late 16th century?). Anyone any idea. Yes, a bunch of Huguenots went over to England and definately used their weaving skills there, but as early as the fourteenth centuryt we have well established groups of Fleming who live in England, and do so either as masons or spinners/weavers... They had their own communities in what could only be termed as ghettoes, and when riots broke out, the Flemish were often the victims, murders often recorded as insignificant details - more minority bashing. Miesje (dreaming of this as her Ph.D. thesis...) ___________ Adopt silly accent: Ho noh! Eets the Spanish Armida! ______________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 15:42:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: 1815 Ribbon? > If it was silk, how would regular washing affect >it? (in 1815, or now?) [My expertise in more in 1779, but I think these comments still stand:] _Did_ things get "regular" washing in 1815? At least, gowns fine enough to have ribbons? I rather understood that outerwear got spot treatment, and little else, at least not regularly. When it did get a thorough washing, you REMOVED the lace trim and probably the ribbon trim and sewed it back on later. That was why so many layers of under garment were worn: so that skin never touched the fine outer garment. This may be one area where we can't win, authenticity-wise. If we insist on washing as frequently as moderns do, then we must suffer having to remove & resew the trim in an authentic manner! Ugggh. Actually, I find that my outer layers DO stay clean and don't need to be washed, since I've got 3-4 petticoats, a corset and a chemise under them. ( Oh, and modern strong anti-perspirant for the smelly pit areas! ) <===========================================================> < Deb Baddorf Marie Susanne Godin Viviat, 1779 Baddorf@fnal.gov French trader's widow from Kaskaskia, Miss.River Baddorf@fnal.bitnet Fort Ste Joseph's milita, NWTA ------------------------------ Date: 17 Oct 1995 16:47:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Re: ribbon? I've purchased some real silk ribbon (not that wimpy silk embroidery ribbon) from antique stores. I'd guess it's early to mid-twentieth century from the packaging. In width and strength it's very much like modern ribbons made of synthetic materials, except that it has that indefineable, subtle silk feel to it. I'd give my eyeteeth for more. Judging from illustrations, I'd guess that silk ribbons used to be superior to what I've been able to find today. Bill, there's also a very brief description of a native woman adorned in ribbons c. 1811. I'll try to get the reference. It was written by an American prisoner at Fort Malden at the beginning of the War of 1812. No detail, but she's described as a surgeon's mistress and "dressed as an empress". Sheridan Alder ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 15:57:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: ribbon? >I've purchased some real silk ribbon (not that wimpy silk embroidery ribbon) >from antique stores. I'd guess it's early to mid-twentieth century from >the packaging. In width and strength it's very much like modern ribbons made >of synthetic materials, except that it has that indefineable, subtle silk >feel to it. I'd give my eyeteeth for more. Judging from illustrations, I'd >guess that silk ribbons used to be superior to what I've been able to find >today. I've got some real silk ribbon too - about 1" wide. It's available through the specialty hobby suppliers that abound in the re-enacting groups. (Some of the vendors mentioned on this list are sure to have access to silk ribbon.) And yes -- it must be stronger, because it is much finer than the equivalent modern ribbon. And it blows SOOO nicely in the breeze. Nothing synthetic seems to compare. A hat tied with silk ribbons, with the tails blowing in the breeze - synthetics can't match it! deb baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:13:45 -0700 From: wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William Birner) Subject: Musketeers' Rapiers I am looking for a bit of help. Can anyone recommend a source or sources where I can buy (hopefully at a reasonable price)6 or 7 mid 17th century French rapiers (actually I believe they are "Italian" style - which became popular around then) as would be reasonably proper for a "Three Musketeers" type theme. - -- Ciao, Bill wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) Bill.Birner@nopc.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 07:25:18 +0000 From: "Jennifer Kubenka" Subject: Frankish costume Hi y'all, I have two tertiary sources (Yarwood's _Costume of the western World and an SCA Compleat Anachronist) who both show basically the same picture for Frankish garb, oh, around 850 or so. It is an undertunic, an overtunic with a contrasting color for the clavi (both of these are flared, not straight), and a collar and belt (heavily decorated in a Byzantineish fashion) also of the contrasting color. However, I have not been able to find a secondary or primary source from whence this picture came. Or, for that matter, have I been able to find out much at all about Frankish clothing in the later years, oh, I guess the eighth and ninth centuries. I appeal to the collective wisdom of the list to help me here. Any slight information would help. I get the feeling, however, that this is a rather difficult subject to research. Jennifer, in Dallas, yes, the Frankish clothing is for a high-persona Early Period SCA event, and I only own Italian Ren and later.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 20:53:07 -0300 From: nstn2695@fox.nstn.ca (Brian Mac Gillivray ) Subject: historical costuming Do you have any information on 16th century clothing...especially English. Thank you. ________________________________ / Brian Mac Gillivray And Family / --------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________________ If you look up and see a boat, you're probably drowning ______________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 10:56:36 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: RE: purple beaver hat My grandfather once gave me (eh...lost to me...) his old beaver-felt fedora. Having worn that dear garment for many years (and abused it heavily), I can speak with some authority on beaver felt. It is a soft, resilient, strong, taupe-coloured felt, which can hold up to kitten litters, scooping catfish, being drug under the bottom of pickup trucks when blown off, and many heavy rains, all without wearing thin. And, being reformed to suit the tastes of every lady who stole it off my head, and then reaccepting my instructions when I retrieved it. Oh yes, and it was made in the 20's. Never seen anything like _that_ material. Miss it. | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Sewing is he-man work! " /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 18:07:21 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Knitting in the Middle Ages Julie wrote: :Last night I ran across a photo of some finely knitted socks in :20,000 years of Fashion by F. Boucher. They were documented :as 7th cent. from Switzerland and thought to have been owned by :an Abbot. They were knitted in a circular fashion. I think they :were approximately plate 268. What looks like knitting in this time period may have been naalbinding, which looks very much like knitting unless one examines it very minutely. (See Rutt, page 8-9, 28-39.) Since this is a needle technique (related to the cloth stitch in needle lace), it would easily be done in the round (circular fashion). Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 17:47:06 PDT From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@go50.comp.pge.com Subject: Glove Etiquette? I am back from vacation and catching up on both email and television, including "The Buccaneers." As Caroline observed, the girls are sad romps indeed in the first episode, which I finally saw last night. These are very nouveau-riche people who have no idea of how to behave properly. Historically, etiquette books and dance manuals were churned out for precisely this audience; the real upper classes had, of course, dancing masters and governesses (and corsets) to train them from childhood in proper ways of movement (I am speaking of 18th and 19th century Europe). Cigarettes and cigars are another Victorian shocker (for women); Conchita is from Brazil, so she has a good excuse. I did not notice the eating with gloves on -- it was a cheap videotape-- but that could demonstrate excessive gentility. Mrs. March and the governess should be the best barometers of appropriate behavior. The etiquette of wearing gloves varies from decade to decade. Although tucking long gloves in at the wrists while dining was certainly proper in the 1950s, my 1922 Emily Post thought it rather awkward, and said the gloves should be completely removed. During some parts of the mid-19th century there was a vogue for wearing gloves during the entire day, including activities for which we should remove them, such as eating or knitting. Elder ladies were quite proud of their ability to knit with their gloves on. Can anyone recommend a good reference for gloves, and their proper wearing/removal during various decades of the 19th Century? Danine Cozzens - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #230 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!