From: owner-h-costume-digest (H-Costume Digest) To: h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Subject: H-Costume Digest V3 #231 Reply-To: h-costume Errors-To: owner-h-costume-digest@lunch.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk H-Costume Digest Wednesday, October 18 1995 Volume 3, Number 231 Compilation copyright (C) 1995 Diane Barlow Close and Gretchen Miller Use in whole prohibited. Individual articles are the property of the author. Seek permission from that author before reprinting or quoting elsewhere. Important Addresses: Send submissions to: h-costume@lunch.engr.sgi.com (or reply to this message). Adds/drops/archives: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Topics: Re: Adrian display in Los Angeles. Thoughts on Knitting Evidence Re: ribbons - washing 1900-1929 women's blouses? identifiy Re: Musketeer's rapiers Re: Is silk ribbon colour-fast? Rapiers Looking for costumers Fwd: query:Living History in England Re: ribbon? Re: Musketeers' Rapiers "Collapsed fabric" Other groups Ribbon Re: Musketeers' Rapiers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 23:36:44 -0700 From: thomasg@slip.net (thomasg) Subject: Re: Adrian display in Los Angeles. >Diane Barlow Close wrote: >The Los Angeles County Museum of Art is havine a show of the "Couture >Designs of Gilbert Adrian" until January 1996. This is a show that >I would personally kill to see as I'm a huge Adrian fan! I was able to see the show on a recent visit to LA. It was small but very choice. The focus was mainly on the society clothes he did after he set up as a private designer. There were about 8 wonderful little afternoon outfits that really stood out. They are in the typical late 30s early 40s style, with short jackets and plain skirts. But the wonderful details are worth the show. Lots of fancy cutting work and piecing of fabrics. Nothing obvious till you're about five feet away and then whammo, you see all this incredible tailoring. It was wonderful. There isn't a catalog to the show, just a pamphlet (which I imedietly mislaid). It's well worth the visit. Christy Pascoe Cpascoe@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 15:11:57 +0100 From: j.w.hubbard@sheffield.ac.uk (Bill Hubbard) Subject: Thoughts on Knitting Evidence This is a long post. I trust people will forgive me as I think the point of it is relevant to a lot of historic costume questions that come up. Regarding Knitting: I would really like to get evidence that knitting was used for making hose in England pre-1550. Failing that, used for larger garments; failing that, for hose or garments on the close continent. I would really like it because I cannot get a close fit to bias hose AND move as energetically as I need to when I fight. I acknowledge all of the points about slight bagginess is allowable around the knees, pictorial evidence of rear points being loosened, etc, but I still can't get my hose to look as they do in contemporary illustrations and then go through a fight with them. I have been trying for years to get the right look. My present conclusion is that there WAS a difference in the cloth that was used for hose. Now, knitting would be a splendid solution, but I am still not convinced by the evidence that has been posted recently, nor by the claimed implications. I don't believe it is enough to take arguable evidence and then build a case on "reasonable" assumptions, when its a modern mind deciding whats "reasonable". I am NOT getting at anyone here - just pointing out some difficulties. A pertinent example where I have made this mistake is with 13 cent greaves - - gutter shaped iron shin protectors. The contemporary Maciejowski Bible shows Goliath wearing a fine pair - but *no-one else* in the whole Bible. I assumed that this was because Goliath would be shown as the supreme soldier with the best kit: I then assumed that such greaves were available but limited to the best equipped contemporary (1250) foot-soldiers. All other evidence has them being introduced 35 or so years later, and just for horsemen. I now find out that the Bible actually mentions that Goliath wears greaves. There must be hundreds of other soldiers depicted and none wear greaves: that should have made me far warier. There is a correspondence here with the knitting Madonnas. Wishful and modern thinking on my part. I assumed that since the metal working technology could certainly produce greaves, since with sword and shield leg injuries were common and horrendous, etc, I had assumed that people would have them and I let one piece of evidence persuade me without considering all of its background. We cannot assume that just because WE think something is better and is available, that past peoples would have used it. There are a lot more examples in the arms and armour field of this kind of thing. This relates to the knitting Madonnas. These seem to stem from the Bible's "seamless shirt" requirement. This is not a representation of a normal woman doing an everyday activity: this is the Madonna involved in Christ's Passion. As such I think they are out of the running for consideration of normal activities: certainly if they are (as a class) the only representations of people knitting. They might be knitting: they might be knitting shirts: knitted shirts might have been around generally: they might have been common - but the Madonnas are witnesses to this situation with an agenda of their own: their evidence is "tainted" and should only be used to corroborate, not prove. This may seem severe, but for making clothing, I think it comes down to whether one looks at history for inspiration, or for evidence. Before he felt he had to leave this List, David Rickman wrote a very good piece on the use of historical information as evidence and guidelines for what evidence is valid and why. I assume its in the archives: the date on my copy is 2nd May 1995, entitled "Hello Again". He suggests three independent pieces of evidence as a minimum and makes the point well. On these grounds I don't think widespread knitting of large garments is yet proven. But I wish it was. Regards, Bill ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 1995 10:16:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Re: ribbons - washing There's several interesting passages in Tobias Smollet's "Humphry Clinker" c. 1771. The maidservant Winnifred Jenkins describes learning recipes to "wash gaze, and refrash rusty silks and bumbeseens, by boiling them with winegar, chamberlye, and stale beer." The same maid is also described by a genteel commentator as "all of a flutter with faed lutestring, washed gauze, and ribbons three times refreshed". What I read from this is that people were washing their silks, laces and ribbons, but that they wouldn't quite be the "same" again. It also sounds as if these garments would be passed on to the servants, who would be inordinately proud of such frouzy garments. Certainly people were exchanging recipes for washing. By the way, Win is depicted as a silly Welsh country girl - so those spelling mistakes are her, and not typos of mine. Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 1995 10:18:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: 1900-1929 women's blouses? identifiy I'm hoping to tap into our collective knowledge here. I've purchased two old blouses which I hope are c. 1910-1920. I've poured through the costume shelves of the local university and public libraries, but I'm still not 100% sure. The first one is a prettier version of Olive Oyl's blouse! It has a ruffle which falls around the neck and elbow-length sleeves. It's in excellent condition, made in a white cotton swiss dot. It has two pleats in the front, one on either side of the chest, and fastens asymetrically at the throat ruffle with two snaps. The front buttons are hidden under the (my) left hand pleat. (The pleats are about 1 inch wide.) It is longer at the front than at the back. The centre of the back is slightly gathered with a cotton tape which ties around the front. The sleeves are just over elbow length. The shoulder yoke and the join of the sleeves to the body are in tiny, exquisite faggotting. The flat neck ruffle and sleeve ruffles are meticulously gathered on, and there is more tiny faggotting in the centre of the ruffles. (Hey, maybe sweat shops weren't all bad!) It's machine sewn. In "400 Years of Fashion" a linen suit of 1910/11 (owned by Miss Heather Firbank-forget the number) is shown with similar style of ruffles, but I've also seen that style of ruffle used in 1920 in a reprint of clothing ads from the 1920's (Sorry, can't remember title). (Too bad I'm the tailored type. I look like a major geek in it.) The second is fine black silk. The most notable detail is the very long shirt collar (reminds me of the 60's- but "softer") which is very deep, extending into the chest. It's decorated with three or four black buttons in the centre which have no function. The sleeves have very deep "cuffs" (They don't unbutton) Again, there is faggotting on either side of the the front-button placket, but it looks a littler coarser than the first blouse. There is an inch-wide pleat on either side of the front buttons, and a series of tiny pin-tucks over each breast. It doesn't button up quite to the base of the throat, there is a small point below the centre collar-bone. The front is longer than the back. It's waist length. I think this one might be c. 1919-1920 judging from the collar. Does anyone have any opinions? (Besides - boy! doesn't she ask a lot of questions?) One last question - is everyone getting two copies of each of my questions? My mail keeps echoing back two copies. My apologies for being redundant - I can't do anything about it. Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:36:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sharon L. Nelson" Subject: Re: Musketeer's rapiers I believe Museum Replicas in GA. may have what you are looking for, although I can't vouch for the 'reasonable' price. My fiance got a 'shivona' (sp?) there with a lovely hilt but it was ca. $400. (He's a stickler for 17th c. authenticity so I'm sure the design was good.) I don't have their address as I'm at work, but should no one else reply w. it, please let me know & I'll see if we still have a catalog from them around home somewhere. Two other places for fencing supplies called Triplett Competition Arms, and Sykes Sutlery, may have what you are looking for, but I don't have addresses for them either -- sorry! Again I can try to find them for you if needed. Hope that helps a bit. =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= + Sharon L. Nelson sln@noctrl.edu + | Systems Administrator, Computer Support | + North Central College, Naperville, IL 60540 + =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:07:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Christine Maves Subject: Re: Is silk ribbon colour-fast? On 17 Oct 1995, Library - Vineland Research Station wrote: > Greetings everyone: > > Is the silk ribbbon which is widely available for silk ribbon embroidery > colour-fast? I can't remember the name of the brand I've purchased. > > I'm interested in applying some dark blue silk ribbon to a pale yellow silk > vest of my husband's (c. 1812) to get a striped look, but I'm wondering if > this isn't a recipe for disaster with our hot, humid summers. The vest > material was expensive - should I wash the ribbon first? (Or should I just > get a life?) > > Any advice welcome. > > Sheridan Alder > library@onrsvi.agr.ca >Hi Sheridan, I've heard that if you soak the ribbon in a very diluted mixture of vinegar and water overnight, that this should get out any colour that would run, and set the ribbon so no more running should occur....(but then again I should get a life .....) chris When at first you don't succeed....Try, Try, Try, Try again ------------------------------ Date: 18 Oct 95 10:43:26 EDT From: Rhane <74404.22@compuserve.com> Subject: Rapiers Bill, <> Are you looking for *real* rapiers or replicas? (*BIG* price difference, there!) If you're looking for replicas, Musuem Replicas sells swords. There's also a few others (that don't charge those kind of prices but take a bit longer). Let me know which ones you're after... Rhane ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:32:34 -0400 From: MerrimacGA@aol.com Subject: Looking for costumers Hi, everyone! I need some help. I'm trying to build up a list of people I can refer work out to for my clients on historical uniforms. I am preferring to find someone in Georgia but am interested in finding people in other states as well (continental U.S. only). Part of my business is mail order so for persons outside Georgia, the willingness and ability to do mail order would be essential. This also would be subcontracting work only. At the moment, I don't have any specific clients lined up but anticipate such clients in the near future. I'm just trying to make contacts for right now. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance! Mary Macdonald ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 13:06:35 -0400 From: GDresback@aol.com Subject: Fwd: query:Living History in England Hey, can anyone help these people? I know it's only sort of related to this list, but there seems to be a number of Europeans on it. Please make your replies to Hansen@hope.edu though? I think the thread would be interesting, but I'd feel like I distracted the list if it went too far on here. - --------------------- Forwarded message: From: HANSEN@HOPE.CIT.HOPE.EDU Sender: owner-CW-REENACTORS@GMU.EDU Reply-to: CW-REENACTORS@GMU.EDU To: cw-reenactors@GMU.EDU Date: 95-10-18 08:33:09 EDT My 10 year old son and I are planning a trip to England and possibly Paris. We really enjoy living history events. I know this really doesn't have anything to do with the American Civil War but I'm hoping that there are people over there who are reading this. On our last trip to England we went to Hampton Court where people sang and dance and played music in costume. There were jesters and others were cooking traditional foods. It was a highlight of our trip. This trip we plan to go to London, Cardiff, possibly Canterbury, Leeds, (Kent in general) possibly Nottingham forest area and the area where King Arthur's Court was. We also plan to go over to Paris by way of the Chunnel. While this may or may not happen if you have any good ideas about living history events in GB, Wales, or Paris let me know. We will probably only spend 3 days in Paris with the rest of the 2 weeks in GB. We are planning our trip for the last week in January and first week in February. Sandy Hansen Hansen@hope.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 15:39:11 -0400 From: Carodec@aol.com Subject: Re: ribbon? In a message dated 95-10-17 16:54:31 EDT, Sheridan Alder wrote: >I've purchased some real silk ribbon (not that wimpy silk embroidery ribbon) >from antique stores. I'd guess it's early to mid-twentieth century from >the packaging. In width and strength it's very much like modern ribbons made >of synthetic materials, except that it has that indefineable, subtle silk >feel to it. I'd give my eyeteeth for more. Judging from illustrations, I'd >guess that silk ribbons used to be superior to what I've been able to find >today. I've purchased some lovely silk ribbon from Kathleen B. Smith Textile Reproductions. The ribbons are lustrous and strong. They are available in several different widths, and in vegetable-dyed or synthetic colors. Standard disclaimer: I don't work for this company, just purchase enough goodies from the lady so by now I probably owe her my first born child. Kathleen B. Smith Textile Reproductions Box 48 West Chesterfield, MA 01084 (413) 296-4437 - ---Caroline in Pennsylvania Carodec@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 15:49:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Carl Olson Subject: Re: Musketeers' Rapiers On Tue, 17 Oct 1995, William Birner wrote: > I am looking for a bit of help. > > Can anyone recommend a source or sources where I can buy (hopefully at a > reasonable price)6 or 7 mid 17th century French rapiers (actually I believe > they are "Italian" style - which became popular around then) as would be > reasonably proper for a "Three Musketeers" type theme. > > > -- > Ciao, Bill > > wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) > Bill.Birner@nopc.org > > Hello Bill. If you have Web acess, try the catalog for Scottie Armory at http://www.prime.com/~valenti/scottie/catalog.html. If you don't, try their address at: Scottie Armory P.O. Box 682 Williams, AZ 86046 (602)-635-9588 Their prices vary depending largely upon the accuracy of the blade, i.e., wide epee blades are cheaper than sharpened schlagers (Heidelberg blades.) I have never ordered from them so I don't know about service. Sincerely, Carl P. Olson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 14:47 CDT From: ROBERT@UIAMVS.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: "Collapsed fabric" My local craft guild recently had a workshop on "Collapsed Fabric", which is made by overspinning the weft so that it will want to pull in on itself, creating a kind of crinkle fabric. My understanding is that this is one of the methods used to make crepe. Does anyone know when overtwisting the weft began and whether it might have been used instead of small pleats in some fashions with vertical lines/gathers? Thanks. ****************************** Wendy Robertson Serials Cataloging University of Iowa (319) 335-5894 wendy-robertson@uiowa.edu ****************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Oct 95 20:40:27 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Other groups The editor of the review journal _Rags_ is putting together a list of mailing lists and b-boards relating to costume, vintage clothes, textiles, sewing, etc. for publication in the journal. He himself is not on-line yet. I think I know about most of the Internet lists and gave him some addresses. But I don't know anything about lists specific to CompuServe or other such services. So if anyone knows about these, I'd appreciate specific information, such as the list name, sign-on procedures, etc. as well as an idea of what topics are discussed. If you e-mail the info to me at aterry@teknowledge.com I'll forward it to him. Thanks for any help you can give. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 18:19:52 -500 From: "Carol Kocian" Subject: Ribbon Brian Hill Asked, > If anybody has any experience with ribbon for use on historical > costumes or ribbon as a trade item used in the fur trade, I would > very much like to hear your thoughts on this. I don't know about the fur trade, but I do have an opinion about ribbon for reenacting. I don't like polyester grosgrain ribbon for reenacting. A wonderful alternative is the linen ribbon (or "tapes") avilable from Kathleen B. Smith in Massachusetts. It's a natural brown color, but I frequently dye it. Dark colors are possible with the "3-day" method: Using RIT dye, I mix up a strong dyebath, and simmer the ribbon all evening. I let it cool, leave it overnight, and simmer it again the following two evenings. The color is intense and colorfast with proper washing & rinsing afterward. I also weave my own tapes from silk or linen on a tape loom. These are warp-faced narrow tapes with many possibilities for color patterns. -Carol Kocian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 15:48:37 -0700 From: denikai@ix.netcom.com (Marie Denikas ) Subject: Re: Musketeers' Rapiers You wrote: > >I am looking for a bit of help. > >Can anyone recommend a source or sources where I can buy (hopefully at a >reasonable price)6 or 7 mid 17th century French rapiers (actually I believe >they are "Italian" style - which became popular around then) as would be >reasonably proper for a "Three Musketeers" type theme. > > >-- >Ciao, Bill > >wbbirner@ix.netcom.com (William B. Birner) >Bill.Birner@nopc.org > > Try American Fencers Supply/The Armoury They do multiple hilt styles on different blade styles, and all pieces are replaceable as they are combat-worthy. Reasonable prices, too. 1180 Folsom St. San Francisco, CA 94103 (415) 863-7911 ------------------------------ End of H-Costume Digest V3 #231 ******************************* A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, send the command lines: unsubscribe h-costume-digest subscribe h-costume end in the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Thanks and enjoy the list!